Comic Strip on Social Class
- Thread starter alaskanseminole
- Start date
Networking and connections really help. I am not upset with anyone who has an established network. Good for them. If I do not have a network, should I complain about it or do something about it? Some people have it harder, some have it easier. I will never be as fast as Usain Bolt and I will never be upset about that either. In the end the question to ask is, "So what?" She has it harder than the guy so what? He doesn't have to work as hard as her.......so we're led to believe, so what? Life is hard, so what?
I wasted a lot of effort and anxiety bemoaning the disadvantages I had (granted, not as bad as Paula there, but pretty crappy at times nonetheless) and how easy some had it, being born into a higher class. It doesn't do anyone any good to complain about it.
I also wasted a lot of time scoffing at people who made a lot of effort at networking. One particular couple from my UWF days lived next door to me in Jax after graduation and they spent so much time trying to hobnob and none trying to improve their skillsets. I was the opposite and I now realize both are important.
I grew up in an area that is broker than broke. Now I have been in management for more than a decade, one year away from earning my MBA, and about to change careers. In my climb from the bottom I have learned there are two options: Complain about it or do something about it.
I liken to the adage of crapping in one hand and wishing in the other and seeing which one fills up first. While crapping in one's hand is arguably disgusting it does show that action produces results!
I liken to the adage of crapping in one hand and wishing in the other and seeing which one fills up first. While crapping in one's hand is arguably disgusting it does show that action produces results!
I think some of you are missing the point.
Some people are born on third, thinking they hit a triple, and never realize how advantageous their life is in comparison to others; and it is that lack of realization that prevents them from supporting anything that might help someone else be born with at least no outs and a 0-0 count, instead of no balls 2 strikes and 2 outs.
Some people are born on third, thinking they hit a triple, and never realize how advantageous their life is in comparison to others; and it is that lack of realization that prevents them from supporting anything that might help someone else be born with at least no outs and a 0-0 count, instead of no balls 2 strikes and 2 outs.
I don't like the cartoon.
I don't like that it assumes a) that the kid growing up with more opportunities doesn't appreciate how lucky he's had it - if that kid grows up spoiled, it's on the parents, not somehow the fault of society, and b) that no matter how hard the poor kid works, she's never going to be able to get ahead - it's just not true. A lot of people come up from relatively little to work hard, never quit and make themselves successful - all with the goal of putting themselves and their family in the first kid's shoes for the future.
I guess if the point of the cartoon is to bash the first kid's parents for failing him and not teaching him to understand the benefits that he had, and how to use them to try and create a better world around him, then sure, I guess I get that. But it seems like the point of the cartoon is to bash a system that allows one kid to start off with one advantage, and assume that poor kids will always be stuck being poor. It's not accurate.
Yes, I understand that it's purely anecdotal, but it's MY anecdote. I certainly grew up much closer to the second kid than the first. I got accepted to better schools, but I went to the one that my family could afford based solely on student loans - there was no 529, trust fund, etc waiting on me when I graduated. So I went to the smaller no-name school, but I graduated, then I stuck around (took out more loans) and got a Masters. I then had to start out at a crappy, low-level job because my school didn't have internships at big companies, and my parents didn't have connections they could leverage for me. So, it took me a little longer, but I'm in a spot now where my daughter is on a track a lot more similar to the first kid's. That's the goal. That's what I've worked so hard to be able to attain. The difference is that she knows fully well that she's being given opportunities that a lot of other kids don't have. She also knows that it's her job, and her responsibility, to take advantage of the opportunities she's been given. My whole goal is to put her in a position, and give her the tools, so that she can do better than her mom and I have done, and to realize her full potential.
It seems like assuring your children's success should be the goal for everyone that has kids, and that little is gained by "success-shaming" those that didn't have to live in slums or overcome disease and crime as part of their childhood.
I don't like that it assumes a) that the kid growing up with more opportunities doesn't appreciate how lucky he's had it - if that kid grows up spoiled, it's on the parents, not somehow the fault of society, and b) that no matter how hard the poor kid works, she's never going to be able to get ahead - it's just not true. A lot of people come up from relatively little to work hard, never quit and make themselves successful - all with the goal of putting themselves and their family in the first kid's shoes for the future.
I guess if the point of the cartoon is to bash the first kid's parents for failing him and not teaching him to understand the benefits that he had, and how to use them to try and create a better world around him, then sure, I guess I get that. But it seems like the point of the cartoon is to bash a system that allows one kid to start off with one advantage, and assume that poor kids will always be stuck being poor. It's not accurate.
Yes, I understand that it's purely anecdotal, but it's MY anecdote. I certainly grew up much closer to the second kid than the first. I got accepted to better schools, but I went to the one that my family could afford based solely on student loans - there was no 529, trust fund, etc waiting on me when I graduated. So I went to the smaller no-name school, but I graduated, then I stuck around (took out more loans) and got a Masters. I then had to start out at a crappy, low-level job because my school didn't have internships at big companies, and my parents didn't have connections they could leverage for me. So, it took me a little longer, but I'm in a spot now where my daughter is on a track a lot more similar to the first kid's. That's the goal. That's what I've worked so hard to be able to attain. The difference is that she knows fully well that she's being given opportunities that a lot of other kids don't have. She also knows that it's her job, and her responsibility, to take advantage of the opportunities she's been given. My whole goal is to put her in a position, and give her the tools, so that she can do better than her mom and I have done, and to realize her full potential.
It seems like assuring your children's success should be the goal for everyone that has kids, and that little is gained by "success-shaming" those that didn't have to live in slums or overcome disease and crime as part of their childhood.
My dad moved to the USA from South Africa with nothing. He hitchhiked across America and worked Blue Collar jobs for most of his 20s and 30s including delivering milk for TG Lee and a pest control technician. He never gave up hope or complained about how easy other people had it. Last year he paid cash for a brand new Lexus LX570 and just bought a house in New Smyrna Beach for 1.2 million. I've had numerous advantages because of his hard work, and even though I joke about it sometimes here in the Locker Room I do not take any of it for granted. I am crazy lucky.
the occasional blinking is really creeping me out
i agree with the point made by the cartoon. My mom works in customer service and my dad was an electrician (now retired), i didn't have a network already set up for me and also didn't realize how important they are. I made friends in college, but never really bothered to keep up relationships i made during internships. I thought frats were stupid and full of obnoxious morons (still do), but in retrospect it would have been worth putting up with the idiots in order to make connections with the few that were going somewhere.
When I graduated, I couldn't find a job and ended up working at big box store. Eventually I made contact with a person and was able to start a profession rather than just a job. My disadvantages are minimal compared to a lot of people and it only ended up delaying me by about 2 years, but my advice to parents is to stress networking in college as much or more than good grades. It is absolutely crucial to setting up your professional life.
i agree with the point made by the cartoon. My mom works in customer service and my dad was an electrician (now retired), i didn't have a network already set up for me and also didn't realize how important they are. I made friends in college, but never really bothered to keep up relationships i made during internships. I thought frats were stupid and full of obnoxious morons (still do), but in retrospect it would have been worth putting up with the idiots in order to make connections with the few that were going somewhere.
When I graduated, I couldn't find a job and ended up working at big box store. Eventually I made contact with a person and was able to start a profession rather than just a job. My disadvantages are minimal compared to a lot of people and it only ended up delaying me by about 2 years, but my advice to parents is to stress networking in college as much or more than good grades. It is absolutely crucial to setting up your professional life.
It's the Limey way of saying whining. They're both based on the same old English root word.
Seemingly every time privilege comes up there is always one of these. Your story is irrelevant. The commentary is not that poor kids can never get ahead. The point of the cartoon is simply that this idea of a meritocracy is a myth. Privilege does not describe an individual, it describes a population.
If you grew up a white, male, heterosexual, American... you've had an advantage over those who didn't. That doesn't mean you have to feel guilty. But pretending otherwise makes you look absurd. If you are shamed because of your success, then that sounds like your problem. I grew up with lots of privilege and have had success in part due to that and in other part due to merits. I don't feel bad for any of it.
Because that's exactly what the cartoon is suggesting, that you should feel guilty for your whiteness.... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
Only because it doesn't fit into the narrative that you're trying to sell.
If it was a myth, then there wouldn't be any documented examples of people who succeeded due to hard work and determination, rather than purely on their last name, skin color, etc. But there are. Maybe you don't understand what a "myth" is?
Do you have any idea at all how many poor, white, hetero males there are in America?
Wiki says that there's ~197M whites in the USA.
This site says that 10% of whites in America live in poverty.
Wiki also says that there are 0.97 (48.5%) males for every female in America.
This site says that 1.8% of men identify as gay and 0.4% identify as bi (meaning 97.8% identify as straight).
So, 197M x .10 = 19.7M and 19.7M x 48.5% = 9.55M and 9.55M x 97.8% = 9.34M
That's 9.34 million poor, white, hetero males that I'm sure would love to have this advantage that you seem to think comes as part of their birthright.
Aren't 9.34 million poor, white, hetero males enough to disprove your above statement? If not, then those 9.34 million guys would be wearing ties and sitting at desks in their ivory towers. Instead, they're the guys that you probably refer to as "hillbillies", "rednecks", "white trash", "crackers", etc. - since they're the only underprivileged segment of society that it's still acceptable to disparage.
Shamed because of any success that I may have had? I couldn't be prouder - because I know that it came as a result of what I accomplished, not because I happened to be born and fell into it from there.
Conversely, if you feel guilty about any advantages that might have gotten you to wherever you are, then you need to resolve that on your own, but don't think that everyone else's route was the same as yours.
Russ, you know you're my boy, but you just supported the point of the comic.
It's not about shame or guilt, that has little to do with it.
If I use your same logic and resources for African Americans:
38M X .27 = 10.26M and 10.26M x 48.5 = 4.976M and 4.976M x 97.8% = 4.87M
If I then take those numbers and compare their relative percentages, what are the chances a white male will be living in poverty, versus that of a black male:
White 9.34M / 95.5M (total males) = 9.77% chance
Black 4.87M / 18.4M (total males) = 26.4% chance
Nearly triple the chances of living in poverty.
It's not about shame or guilt, that has little to do with it.
If I use your same logic and resources for African Americans:
38M X .27 = 10.26M and 10.26M x 48.5 = 4.976M and 4.976M x 97.8% = 4.87M
If I then take those numbers and compare their relative percentages, what are the chances a white male will be living in poverty, versus that of a black male:
White 9.34M / 95.5M (total males) = 9.77% chance
Black 4.87M / 18.4M (total males) = 26.4% chance
Nearly triple the chances of living in poverty.
I don't disagree with your numbers. I question the actual cause of the number, rather than just the perceived cause of the number.
High School Dropouts:
This site says that in 2012 4% of whites dropped out of high school, 8% of blacks dropped out and 13% of Hispanics dropped out. Can you simply say that the blacks and Hispanics dropped out because they're not white? Because you can say that dropping out of high school decreases your chances of being successful later in life.
Jail/Crime:
This site says that 59.1% of the US prison population is white (compared to 63.7% of the general population), and that 37.5% of the prison population is black (compared to 12.2% of the general population). I'm sure that we can have a whole chicken/egg debate about whether poverty causes crime, or whether crime causes poverty, but can you really debate that being in prison decreases your chances of being successful later in life.
Are there some instances where being someone's son helps them to get a job? Of course there are. Are there some instances where being black or Hispanic work against someone applying for a job? I'm sure there are, but for the most part I don't think it's the white-collar jobs that most people would want - the ones that would actually bring people out of poverty or be perceived as "successful" positions.
My point is that there are a lot of different factors that contribute to people being successful or not being successful, and I don't think that being white or being some rich guy's son plays a significant role in it nearly as often as was implied.
This fits in PERFECTLY with a professor in the UK that said that bedtime reading to your children gives them an unfair advantage and as such should be discouraged. He also mentioned that having a two parent family also gives kids an "unfair" advantage as well as sending kids to private schools. His solution? "We won't have equality until we stop with the belief that parents can or should be allowed to raise their children as they see fit. We won't see equality until we become a mass community with one rule for how to raise kids. Obviously the state would be the best at leveling the playing field"
I was never rich. I'm still not monetarily rich. But I've got a ton going for me in my field. I was the right fit at the right time and I'm darn sure making the best out of my current situation
I've worked hard, no doubt. I Made some really dumb decisions when I was younger. I was also raised in a spilt home. One side of my parenting came from a single lady who lived in a trailer, single wide. The other side was in a 5,500 sq foot home on 2.5 acres in one of the more wealthy naborhoods of Lynn Haven.
Who we are and what we become has a tremendous amount of social stature built into it. On another note by no means are we exclusive to what are parents are. My dad made me work for it, I can remember when he told me I was wasting my money going to culinary school. My mom helped me earn it, she still to this day pays for my cooks illustrated subscription and never once has cashed the check I send her every month for it. I did every single amount of physical and mental work to get me there. I didn't learn what I know from my mom or dad. I may have learned some of that experience from what I was exposed to as a child. I would deem that my personal "ethics" or sense of well being.
I think we are all human. We all form our own tendencies and attitudes on situations based off experiences. But at the end of the day we're all born out of a vagina. Regardless if it's gold or not.
Everyone has hopes and dreams, not all of us can physically or mentally accomplish them. We can't all be the best. We can't all be leaders. We can't all be rich. We will never all be equal.
That statement has to do with the Idividual, what the social economic background that were raised in does not matter. I am going to get my empire at the end of the day, my bank account is gonna be loaded with zeros...zeros with numbers in front of them my parents from both ends of the spectrum couldn't have imagined. Why? Because I'm not worried about where the hell I came from or what my parents did. I'm focused on where I'm going and how the hell im going to get there.
I've worked hard, no doubt. I Made some really dumb decisions when I was younger. I was also raised in a spilt home. One side of my parenting came from a single lady who lived in a trailer, single wide. The other side was in a 5,500 sq foot home on 2.5 acres in one of the more wealthy naborhoods of Lynn Haven.
Who we are and what we become has a tremendous amount of social stature built into it. On another note by no means are we exclusive to what are parents are. My dad made me work for it, I can remember when he told me I was wasting my money going to culinary school. My mom helped me earn it, she still to this day pays for my cooks illustrated subscription and never once has cashed the check I send her every month for it. I did every single amount of physical and mental work to get me there. I didn't learn what I know from my mom or dad. I may have learned some of that experience from what I was exposed to as a child. I would deem that my personal "ethics" or sense of well being.
I think we are all human. We all form our own tendencies and attitudes on situations based off experiences. But at the end of the day we're all born out of a vagina. Regardless if it's gold or not.
Everyone has hopes and dreams, not all of us can physically or mentally accomplish them. We can't all be the best. We can't all be leaders. We can't all be rich. We will never all be equal.
That statement has to do with the Idividual, what the social economic background that were raised in does not matter. I am going to get my empire at the end of the day, my bank account is gonna be loaded with zeros...zeros with numbers in front of them my parents from both ends of the spectrum couldn't have imagined. Why? Because I'm not worried about where the hell I came from or what my parents did. I'm focused on where I'm going and how the hell im going to get there.
I understand what a myth is. I also understand what meritocracy is. A person's success is almost never only about how hard they've worked. There is almost always an element of privilege. That idea is completely against the definition of a meritocracy. Your successes in life are some combination of your merits and your starting point. That isn't a meritocracy.
And I wouldn't care about your story even if it were the perfect example of how a meritocracy doesn't exist. It would be analogous to me showing you a proof for a coin flip probability and you saying "you are full of it, I just flipped a coin 4 times and it landed on heads each time". Your story just doesn't make any difference in terms of describing a population.
Who has the bigger head start? All born in America, 2010.
Lower class Pale American Male
Lower class African American Female
Upperclass Asian American Female
Lower class Irish American Male
Middle class Native American Male
Middle class Pale American Female
Upper class African American Male
Lower class Native American Female
Not to mention how each individual's parents are or what they do. What if 1 set is divorced, 1 ultra religious, 1 hipster, 1 drug addict. Etc. 1 middle school teachers, 1 investment bankers. What about the Indivudals name? All of a sudden does John have a better chance at life and achieving that merit of success than Lin? Gladwell has talked a lot about these types of subjects and he draws good insight to them. Same with the freakonomics guys.
Life is not a drag race. We do not all start at the same line, and all of our lines finish different. I hope society realizes that it's simply impossible to give us all the same starting point. It's also even more impossible to even out everything after that starting point.
Lower class Pale American Male
Lower class African American Female
Upperclass Asian American Female
Lower class Irish American Male
Middle class Native American Male
Middle class Pale American Female
Upper class African American Male
Lower class Native American Female
Not to mention how each individual's parents are or what they do. What if 1 set is divorced, 1 ultra religious, 1 hipster, 1 drug addict. Etc. 1 middle school teachers, 1 investment bankers. What about the Indivudals name? All of a sudden does John have a better chance at life and achieving that merit of success than Lin? Gladwell has talked a lot about these types of subjects and he draws good insight to them. Same with the freakonomics guys.
Life is not a drag race. We do not all start at the same line, and all of our lines finish different. I hope society realizes that it's simply impossible to give us all the same starting point. It's also even more impossible to even out everything after that starting point.
The good thing about your argument is that it's impossible to disprove. You throw out unsubstantiated generalities that have no basis in anything other than your opinions.
How do you quantify how hard someone has worked? How do you identify elements of privilege? You don't, and you can't. So instead you just use vague phrasing that supports what you already believe to be true.
But I did describe the population. I went out of my way to provide you with over 9 million examples to support my point, along with the sources of my information, and you counter with coin flips.
Your analogy is appropriate though - since it relies on the randomness of the outcomes, rather than any predetermined outcomes based on factors other than the coins. You'd think the randomness out my story and the stories of others - in contrast to what you think the narrative should be - would be enough to show you that what you think is true and absolute really isn't. People can and do succeed without being born into it, and without being given certain advantages by others over everyone else because they were born white, or male, or hetero, or whatever. And that people that were born with those characteristics sometimes still don't succeed. And that sometimes people that don't succeed were actually undermined by their own choices, rather than by any concerted effort of the Man to keep them down. But you don't care - you only want to continue believing what you believe: I guess because you got to where you did because of your family, you must assume that everyone else got to where they are the same way.
Just because you start somewhere doesn't mean you have to end there. Hard work and academic success is rewarded, and if you do well and you're a poor minority, the academic world and then the world is your oyster. 2 of the kids our son played sports with throughout high school.....white kid, single mom, deadbeat dad. Mom made 20K/year. Got a great scholarship to Rice. 1/2 black, 1/2 mexican kid. Divorced parents. Very low income. Kid got a free ride to MIT and a free ride to Stanford. He chose the free ride to Stanford. Note: both of these were academic scholarships. Had nothing to do with sports. That's just how we knew these kids. They are not playing sports in college.
Surprised this thread has lasted. Anyway, hard work and determination are the overwhelming factors for succes for the vast majority of the people in this country. To claim otherwise is a weak minded excuse. Everybody with almost no exception has opportunity here and the countless examples of people that came from nothing and are now rich do in fact matter, no matter what the socialists say. Sure there are some born with a silver spoon in their mouth, but there is no reason to let petty jealousy of those cloud reasonable thought and logic. With very little exception, if you end up a failure you have no one to blame but yourself. If everyone would accept this fact we would all be better off.
If America were a true meritocracy, you'd see pretty similar national demographics represented in high powered positions. Congress is 80% white, 80% male. Fortune 500 companies have 87% white directors and 75% male directors (http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/diversity_among_ceos.html). Latinos, asians, and blacks are underrepresented as Fortune 500 directors. The only explanation for that in a meritocracy is that minorities don't work as hard as white males. And just to preempt anyone for taking this out of context, I'm not claiming this is proof of anything. I'm just throwing it out there as a talking point.
Also...
I'm not saying white, male, heterosexuals automatically are successful.
I'm not saying saying those who were born other than that won't be successful.
I got to where I got due to my merits and my advantages I've had in life, not just my family. I typed nearly that exact sentence I'm not sure how that could be misinterpreted.
I very much care about this topic as I find it extremely interesting as I work in a field that is dominated by white men.
You did not describe a population. You told a story about how hard you worked. The population you described just showed that white, heterosexual men can be poor. A statement I've never disagreed with.
While I think my position is falsifiable, I am taking a rather weak position and I know that. All I'm stating is that being white, male and heterosexaul provides some benefit in life. I have not and will not try and assess some value to that benefit because I think that is nearly impossible. The old saying is that privilege is like running a race with the wind at your back. All I'm trying to do is convince people there is a wind, not how strong it is.
You should reread what I've typed. Either I'm not doing a good job of making my point or you are completely missing it.
We know there is a wind. We also know that there is a higher percentage of white males perusing the positions you outlined. Therefore there will be a high percentage hired.
What about the NFL, or NBA. I'm 5-9 175 and wanted to be a basketball player. I had no wind. I want a wind for the NBA because my small white rear couldn't make it. It's cause I'm short, and white. I'm at a total disadvantage. It's not fair.
What would happen tomorrow, if a law was outlined and passed. This said law would state that every single professional playing sport had to employee a equal amount of people from all racial, and economic backgrounds from the offices to the playing field? It'll never happen. Because some people are better, have more talent, and God given ability than others. It's called competition and it's a good thing.
There is always a curve. Always a wind. I'm just saying mine is no better than anyone else's.
I persue what I'm good at, and what I know I can be successful at. Bottom line.
What people need to figure out is what their ownwind is and stop complaining about someone else's wind blowing harder.
What about the NFL, or NBA. I'm 5-9 175 and wanted to be a basketball player. I had no wind. I want a wind for the NBA because my small white rear couldn't make it. It's cause I'm short, and white. I'm at a total disadvantage. It's not fair.
What would happen tomorrow, if a law was outlined and passed. This said law would state that every single professional playing sport had to employee a equal amount of people from all racial, and economic backgrounds from the offices to the playing field? It'll never happen. Because some people are better, have more talent, and God given ability than others. It's called competition and it's a good thing.
There is always a curve. Always a wind. I'm just saying mine is no better than anyone else's.
I persue what I'm good at, and what I know I can be successful at. Bottom line.
What people need to figure out is what their ownwind is and stop complaining about someone else's wind blowing harder.
I know that my kids will have tremendous advantages that will greatly increase their opportunity to lead a good (successful) life. Many of the advantages will be non-financial advantages that I had while growing up: a safe home with both parents engaged in developing the child, an emphasis on the importance of education, no physical/sexual abuse, proper nutrition, an emphasis on physical health and development, pediatrician/dentist visits, and a creation of values/morals/manners, encouragement and support. Most children would thrive in that type of environment, but sadly this is not the normal environment for a myriad of reasons. Pretending that money or race is the source of the advantage distracts the conversation in my opinion.
I had many genetic advantages, but I would argue that having parents who cared (and had the opportunity to be there for me) was my biggest. I hope to pass these advantages along to my children and wish that more parents would/could do the same.
I had many genetic advantages, but I would argue that having parents who cared (and had the opportunity to be there for me) was my biggest. I hope to pass these advantages along to my children and wish that more parents would/could do the same.
While this is true in some cases, given2fly is going to have a really hard time finding a solid example of a privilege, right or immunity that is universally bestowed upon ALL white males that is not also afforded to people outside that group.
And as bandit said, "check your privilege" is simply a liberal catch-phrase designed to immediately stop debate and dissent.
There is a very real prejudice against white guys in athletics, particularly in this country. Regardless of athletic ability white guys are discouraged from certain positions and actively held back. I have experience it personally. The crazy thing is much of the problem comes from white coaches.
The mentality that those who "failed" didn't work hard and those who have "success" worked hard is part of the underlying problem with things.
Plenty of poor people work very hard but do not have either opportunities or situation to better themselves to a level where they would be considered successful to mainstream America.
On the flipside, having a high paying job or having financial success is not mean that person worked any harder than people much poorer than them.
Work and effort does not directly translate to or indicate financial success.
Plenty of poor people work very hard but do not have either opportunities or situation to better themselves to a level where they would be considered successful to mainstream America.
On the flipside, having a high paying job or having financial success is not mean that person worked any harder than people much poorer than them.
Work and effort does not directly translate to or indicate financial success.
In real life, the poor kid was raised by a single Mother. If there were no single Mother's, there'd be a LOT less poor kids and a LOT less carjackers.
