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Kinsman vs. Winston is essentially a swearing contest

Seminiferous

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Mar 29, 2002
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One's lying; one's telling the truth.

Absent forensic evidence, this case will pivot on whose version appears to the jury to be more likely to be truthful. What else would a "he said/she said" trial turn on?

I'd always believed Jameis. This admission of lying on national television will now be rich fodder for cross examination. Any trial lawyer worth his salt will use this confession to lying to shred Jameis's veracity on cross examination.

I so want Jameis to win, but I see this development as very possibly a game changer.
 
Winston admitting to the crab legs after all this time is easily explainable if one understands how collegiate athletic rules work.

Erica Kinsman's multiple admissions of things routinely proven false are directly related to the issues of the case and have no rational explanation.
 
Interesting point...you likely
Winston admitting to the crab legs after all this time is easily explainable if one understands how collegiate athletic rules work.

Erica Kinsman's multiple admissions of things routinely proven false are directly related to the issues of the case and have no rational explanation.


Valid. A jury may (likely) get the case and say both of them are liars and pour her out because no one knows what happened that night. Had that happen to me on more than one occasion.
 
He didn't really admit to anything other than more details to what happened. It was still wrong, he still stole them, he still paid the price and moved along with his life.
 
Granted, the plaintiff has been spewing lies since the beginning.

So, now, Jameis is an admitted liar, too, giving up an enormous tactical advantage. Having tried and adjudicated many cases, I can just envision Kinsman's lawyer taking this admitted lie and using it to destroy Winston's credibility. A skillful cross examiner will use James's lie to filet him like a fish.
 
One's lying; one's telling the truth.

Absent forensic evidence, this case will pivot on whose version appears to the jury to be more likely to be truthful. What else would a "he said/she said" trial turn on?

I'd always believed Jameis. This admission of lying on national television will now be rich fodder for cross examination. Any trial lawyer worth his salt will use this confession to lying to shred Jameis's veracity on cross examination.

I so want Jameis to win, but I see this development as very possibly a game changer.

Semi, I agree with you 100%. Up until now, it seemed as if JW was being honest about all the various "incidents." Now, he admits to the one "criminal" act he has been accused of and punished for. It is not a leap to think that others will be asking, "Well, if he would lie about something as small as $32 crablegs, why wouldn;t he lie about something as serious as rape?"
I agree...this could be a game changer. :(
 
Semi, I agree with you 100%. Up until now, it seemed as if JW was being honest about all the various "incidents." Now, he admits to the one "criminal" act he has been accused of and punished for. It is not a leap to think that others will be asking, "Well, if he would lie about something as small as $32 crablegs, why wouldn;t he lie about something as serious as rape?"
I agree...this could be a game changer. :(
In fairness, I suspect he was trying not to rat out the clerk that gave him the crab legs. I still don't think he's admitting to stealing them (in the traditional definition of stealing), but it does appear that in trying to protect the clerk he did lie to the police. So Semi's point still remains.
 
Semi, I agree with you 100%. Up until now, it seemed as if JW was being honest about all the various "incidents." Now, he admits to the one "criminal" act he has been accused of and punished for. It is not a leap to think that others will be asking, "Well, if he would lie about something as small as $32 crablegs, why wouldn;t he lie about something as serious as rape?"
I agree...this could be a game changer. :(
It's interesting that jurys somehow put a baseline at "everyone is truthful until proven a liar". Hasn't virtually everyone told an untruth at some point? It seems unreasonable to have one documented instance carry so much weight. I understand that is the way it works but it seems unfair and counterproductive to coming to a fair conclusion.
 
This kind of collateral attack on his credibility (i.e., you once lied about something unrelated in connection with an unrelated incident) will hopefully never make it to the jury. If I were representing Jameis, I would file a motion in limine to keep this kind of garbage away from the jury.
 
We've been told ad naseum that Kinsman's prior acts, like being a "cleatchaser", can not be used against her because any action not directly related to the particular event doesn't doesn't prove or disprove anything. Why would that be different with Jameis? The fact he lied about the crab legs doesn't prove he lied at all in this case.
 
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We've been told ad naseum that Kinsman's prior acts, like being a "cleatchaser", can not be used against her because any action not directly related to the particular event doesn't doesn't prove or disprove anything. Why would that be different with Jameis? The fact he lied about the crab legs doesn't prove he lied at all in this case.
If they can use crab legs against JW, she has several texts on record talking about cheating on a test
 
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Granted, the plaintiff has been spewing lies since the beginning.

So, now, Jameis is an admitted liar, too, giving up an enormous tactical advantage. Having tried and adjudicated many cases, I can just envision Kinsman's lawyer taking this admitted lie and using it to destroy Winston's credibility. A skillful cross examiner will use James's lie to filet him like a fish.
Why would this be relevant?
 
Why do people continue to call this case a he said/she said?

There are 2 EYE WITNESSES that corroborate Jameis' side... So it is a He said/He said/He said/She said at the very least.

And people discount Casher and Darby's witness accounts because they are his teammates, but Casher is on record as saying he wanted to join in. If this was a rape, why wouldn't he have? Kinsman has never alleged she was gang raped. I guess I'm just naive in that I find it hard to believe that two people would lie for their friend to cover up a rape.

I would need more evidence to indicate they were lying than just "They are his teammates so you can't believe their statements".

If I am on that Jury I don't discount eye witness testimony just because they are friends with the defendent (not sure if this is the right term in a civil complaint. respondent?)

SFNole
 
Why do people continue to call this case a he said/she said?

There are 2 EYE WITNESSES that corroborate Jameis' side... So it is a He said/He said/He said/She said at the very least.

And people discount Casher and Darby's witness accounts because they are his teammates, but Casher is on record as saying he wanted to join in. If this was a rape, why wouldn't he have? Kinsman has never alleged she was gang raped. I guess I'm just naive in that I find it hard to believe that two people would lie for their friend to cover up a rape.

I would need more evidence to indicate they were lying than just "They are his teammates so you can't believe their statements".

If I am on that Jury I don't discount eye witness testimony just because they are friends with the defendent (not sure if this is the right term in a civil complaint. respondent?)

SFNole

Defendant is the correct term. I think people lie all the time for a friend, but I watched Darby's interview video & don't think he's lying. Same with Casher.
 
This is a swearing contest. Winston has two corroborating witnesses, but the veracity of the witnesses is an issue, just as are the veracity of the plaintiff and defendant. Winston's crab leg incident is absolutely relevant to his veracity.

I expect Winston to ultimately prevail because the plaintiff's statements are so demonstrably inconsistent, but Winston's lie will really hurt his case. He's a liar, and the case is all about who's telling the truth.
 
This is a swearing contest. Winston has two corroborating witnesses, but the veracity of the witnesses is an issue, just as are the veracity of the plaintiff and defendant. Winston's crab leg incident is absolutely relevant to his veracity.

I expect Winston to ultimately prevail because the plaintiff's statements are so demonstrably inconsistent, but Winston's lie will really hurt his case. He's a liar, and the case is all about who's telling the truth.
Exactly how is the crab leg incident any more relevant than her sexual history? If one can't be brought up, why should the other be allowed?
 
One's lying; one's telling the truth.

Absent forensic evidence, this case will pivot on whose version appears to the jury to be more likely to be truthful. What else would a "he said/she said" trial turn on?

I'd always believed Jameis. This admission of lying on national television will now be rich fodder for cross examination. Any trial lawyer worth his salt will use this confession to lying to shred Jameis's veracity on cross examination.

I so want Jameis to win, but I see this development as very possibly a game changer.
No it won't. It affects public perception because people have seen it, but it will never be admissible in the EK v JW trial.

The crab leg stuff is not relevant to any issue in the rape case. It is, legally, totally collateral. If they ask Winston a question about anything crab leg related, they are stuck with his answer. "On cross-examination of a witness on collateral or irrelevant matters the answer given by the witness is conclusive and it is error to permit opposing counsel to introduce evidence contradicting the witness's answer. See State v. Statewright, 300 So. 2d 674 (Fla. 1974)." Dempsey v. Shell Oil Co., 589 So. 2d 373 (Fla. 4th DCA 1991).
 
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No it won't. It affects public perception because people have seen it, but it will never be admissible in the EK v JW trial.

The crab leg stuff is not relevant to any issue in the rape case. It is, legally, totally collateral. If they ask Winston a question about anything crab leg related, they are stuck with his answer. "On cross-examination of a witness on collateral or irrelevant matters the answer given by the witness is conclusive and it is error to permit opposing counsel to introduce evidence contradicting the witness's answer. See State v. Statewright, 300 So. 2d 674 (Fla. 1974)." Dempsey v. Shell Oil Co., 589 So. 2d 373 (Fla. 4th DCA 1991).

Good find!
 
Not quite a "find", I deal with this issue in trial all the time. Most lawyers don't realize the limits on credibility attacks related to collateral issues. Heck, some judges don't get it until taught. It should be basic evidence, though.
 
Given he seems to have lied to Jimbo, us fans, and the rest of America regarding these dadgum crab legs, is his credibility hurt for this upcoming trial? Can it be brought up that, or insinuated that he's lied before, & even after the alleged EK saga? Clearly I'm not an attorney, but it sure seems like something I would bring up in trial if he were to take the stand (he'd ave to take the stand right?)...as would she?
 
he did not lie...was not forthright....took the ticket, paid his dues...
 
There are these things called "rules of evidence". They control what is "admissible" in court. Please leave the lawyering to the lawyers.

Anyone who attacks Winston on these boards...please take it to Alligator Alley.
 
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Given he seems to have lied to Jimbo, us fans, and the rest of America regarding these dadgum crab legs, is his credibility hurt for this upcoming trial? Can it be brought up that, or insinuated that he's lied before, & even after the alleged EK saga? Clearly I'm not an attorney, but it sure seems like something I would bring up in trial if he were to take the stand (he'd ave to take the stand right?)...as would she?

I'm not sure how much weight "he's lied before" is gonna carry. Also, I don't understand why people think this reflects on the rape deal. I mean, I'm pretty sure if you're an honest person or a dishonest one you're gonna go ahead and lie if you raped someone. Jameis word wasn't taken as the reason he wasn't charged. Otherwise there would be no one in jail.
 
Compare not being forthright during a multi million dollar job interview with a 7 million extortion plot and a story with more easy to find holes than a porn star convention..
 
There are these things called "rules of evidence". They control what is "admissible" in court. Please leave the lawyering to the lawyers.

Anyone who attacks Winston on these boards...please take it to Alligator Alley.

Geez Manderine, it's a legit question. While I like your videos you are a little sensitive here and I've actually never been to Alligator Alley in my 15+ years on this board, 7 more than you. Now, back to adult talk...

It's a simple question and I asked because I am not an attorney and even stated so. He said he forgot to pay...he didn't forget to pay and never planned on paying if he was "hooked up". I was asking attorneys if EK attorneys can set up a line of questioning related to the crab legs and ask since he changed his story at the end if he was going to change his story here (or something along the line). Everyone other than an attorney seemed to chime in....attorneys...would you bring this up and I ask because I care about his outcome and didn't want this stupid incident and even more stupid excuse costing him.
 
Regardless of whether JW "changed his story" re: crab legs (meant to pay vs. never planned on it.... Who knows, maybe he planned on paying for it when he walked in, saw his buddy and then remembered the promise of a hook up -after he was already in the store), it is irrelevant in the EK case.

Only evidence that is "relevant" is admissible in a court of law. The legal definition of "relevant" is (paraphrasing) evidence that tends to make a material fact more or less likely to be true than in the absence of that evidence. Crab legs = completely unrelated, completely irrelevant to any material fact in the EK case.

However, in the EK case, only one party has changed his/her story, multiple times, and it wasn't JW. That evidence is absolutely related to material facts in the case, and is therefore admissible (this is subject to the judge's discretion, and you can bet yr ass Clune and co. will move to strike any version she has given previously that contradicts whatever version they plan on telling the jury...but I highly doubt that a judge would rule official statements given to law enforcement irrelevant).

Keep in mind that no portion of JW's single, unchanging version of events contradicts any of the physical, electronic, or witness testimony evidence (even EKs witnesses), while every version of EK's story has some credibility problems when compared to the physical evidence, electronic evidence, and witness testimony... even her own witnesses (not to mention when compared to her numerous earlier versions...very little consistency throughout).
 
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We've been told ad naseum that Kinsman's prior acts, like being a "cleatchaser", can not be used against her because any action not directly related to the particular event doesn't doesn't prove or disprove anything. Why would that be different with Jameis? The fact he lied about the crab legs doesn't prove he lied at all in this case.

the basis for this rule is that you cannot use evidence that a person acted a certain way on one occasion as proof that they did it on another (i.e, because a defendant has robbed a bank before or was previously convicted of a drug charge does not mean he robbed THIS bank, or was selling drugs in THIS instance.) The reason for the rule is that a jury member that knows someone robbed a bank before will naturally think of that person as a "bank robber", and, therefore, any circumstantial evidence could easily sway their opinion of a defendant's guilt. Clear case of prejudice. It is said that such prejudice tends to 'reward the good man to punish the bad man because of their respective characters despite what the evidence in the case shows actually happened.' HOWEVER....

#fsucleatchaser may be different. There are, of course, exceptions for every rule.

Yes, evidence used to show an alleged victim’s sexual predisposition is specifically set out as inadmissible in a completely separate rule. But in a civil case, the court MAY admit such evidence (again, judge's discretion) offered by the defendant to support an affirmative defense of consent, AND IF "its probative value substantially outweighs the danger of harm to any victim and of unfair prejudice to any party." Also, a judge MAY admit evidence of an alleged victim’s "reputation", if the alleged victim "has placed it in controversy." (this second part will depend on what she, or her lawyers, have said, or will say, in regards to her chastity, fondness for athletes, etc.)

If I were defending James, I would argue that the identity of second shooter is incredibly relevant to the physical evidence in the case. THAT evidence would carry as much weight, for substantially the same purpose (which is to show that she likes to hook-up w/ african-american athletes), to the average juror as the #fsucleatchaser deal. Unfortunate, but true...regardless of the juror's race.

The rule specific to sexual offense cases is generally meant to keep one from arguing "everyone knows she often left so-and-so bar with strange dudes she'd never met before, so she MUST have done it that night too", or, "I can name three people that will testify that she likes giving h**d, so, therefore you should believe the testimony of Casher and Darby"...

in JWs case, (first, I have to wonder what else we haven't seen...the fact that she has responded at least once to a twitter feed called #fsucleatchasers would probably not be admissible, but if there is MORE, such as...) if there is an actual record of her bragging about prior hookups with african-american fsu athletes (which is apparently what the #fsucleatchasers twitter handle was used for), I would definitely argue that this is not just evidence of her general promiscuity, etc., but a much more specific kind of preference and routine, more akin to HABIT (admissible), than general character; and that it is relevant to HER intentions that evening, and a key piece of evidence needed, based on lack of additional evidence, to establish JWs affirmative defense of consent. I would further argue that this specific preference is similar to a case where a bank robber was seen wearing a bugs bunny mask. Although evidence of a defendant's prior history of robbing banks is irrelevant, if it was known that he always wore a bugs bunny mask in those prior instances, they all of a sudden become relevant...it's a stretch, but...

I would say 50/50 getting it in under those circumstances. 70/30 if an FSU Law grad is on the bench. :)
 
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If they can use crab legs against JW, she has several texts on record talking about cheating on a test

Evidence of her cheating on an exam is obviously not relevant as to whether she was raped or not... BUT the fact that she texted this stuff between the time of the alleged incident and the time she arrived at TMH is incredibly relevant in establishing her state of mind, both in the wake of an alleged traumatic event (rape) and concerning her claims of sobriety/cohesiveness (or lack thereof). I cannot imagine that the texts she made at any point that night (and/or deleted if they can be recovered) will not be deemed admissible, regardless of what character issues they may disclose.
 
Geez Manderine, it's a legit question. While I like your videos you are a little sensitive here and I've actually never been to Alligator Alley in my 15+ years on this board, 7 more than you. Now, back to adult talk...

It's a simple question and I asked because I am not an attorney and even stated so. He said he forgot to pay...he didn't forget to pay and never planned on paying if he was "hooked up". I was asking attorneys if EK attorneys can set up a line of questioning related to the crab legs and ask since he changed his story at the end if he was going to change his story here (or something along the line). Everyone other than an attorney seemed to chime in....attorneys...would you bring this up and I ask because I care about his outcome and didn't want this stupid incident and even more stupid excuse costing him.
See the post above by Allnoles which answers your question. It's a few posts above yours....
 
Evidence of her cheating on an exam is obviously not relevant as to whether she was raped or not... BUT the fact that she texted this stuff between the time of the alleged incident and the time she arrived at TMH is incredibly relevant in establishing her state of mind, both in the wake of an alleged traumatic event (rape) and concerning her claims of sobriety/cohesiveness (or lack thereof). I cannot imagine that the texts she made at any point that night (and/or deleted if they can be recovered) will not be deemed admissible, regardless of what character issues they may disclose.
Very good example of what would otherwise be not admissible being admissible for case specific reasons. I don't even think it's discretionary whether that comes in. It's absolutely relevant to state of mind.

Winston clearly lied about the crab leg thing. You are a total homer if you think otherwise. But it's not going to admissible. Nor with #cleatchaser stuff, unless she is dumb enough to make statements that bring it into play.
 
Florida Statue, Section 90.404(2) governs the admissibility of unrelated wrongs in a trial.

Short answer, crab leg shenanigans should be easily ruled inadmissible.

Her constant story changes about her memory and how it came that she had sex with Winston AND that those versions are contradicted by IRREFUTABLE scientific evidence - yeah, that is all coming in.

This isn't a swearing match.
 
Have you guys seen this "new revelation" from the suit:

from the legal doc said:
31. Darby also entered the room but told Winston
, “Dude, she is telling you to stop.” For a brief moment, Plaintiff thought her nightmare might be over. Instead, Winston picked herup in
a fireman’s carry, walked her into his bathroom, deposited her onto the hard floor and locked the door.

32. Darby then left the apartment. The next day, he posted to his Facebook page,
“I feel the worst I almost felt in my life Smh [shaking my head] # stupid.”

You can read the whole document here:

https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/2...llow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

I haven't seen this allegation before... If Darby did tweet that it would appear damning. I'm sure he will be questioned in his deposition about that facebook post and it's context if he did actually post that the next day.

Understand that the document itself is one-sided and it is meant to paint her narrative in the best possible light.

SFNole
 
If the jury couldn't know about Hernandez's other murder trials coming up, the same logic will be used to keep Winston's non related issues out.

Can't say just because he lied to his coach about crab legs means he raped a girl and lied about it.
 
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