Even more dysfunction at FAMU.

Discussion in 'Florida State Academics' started by NoleOne, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. leavebritneyalone

    leavebritneyalone Contributor
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    In the Democrat article about Mangum "resigning", a FAMU alumna said to just merge FAMU with FSU at this point.

    I couldn't agree more.
     
  2. Sawyer55

    Sawyer55 Ultimate Seminole Insider
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    Yup, then FAMU could run FSU......cause that is how I would go down (but will never happen).
     
  3. goldmom

    goldmom Ultimate Seminole Insider
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    Great. Let's lower our standards for admission and trash the quality of our student admits.
     
  4. leavebritneyalone

    leavebritneyalone Contributor
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    Shun the non-believers. Shun.

    You all are lying to yourselves. If FAMU is struggling to the point where the State of Florida thinks it necessary to merge it into FSU, FAMU isn't going to "run" the "new" school. And in the long term, ONE state university in Tallahassee with Medicine, Law, Engineering, Agriculture, Journalism, Architecture, Pharmacy (and perhaps a better chance to add Dentistry as a merged school) would be better for the community and the state.

    The merged school should absolutely use some of the prior FAMU state appropriations to expand FSU's CARE program. I'd have no problem whatsoever if the merged school were able to expand CARE from 500 students to 1,000+ every year. I wouldn't consider doing that and adding more minority, underrepresented, underserved and first-in-the-family to attend college to be lowering our standards.

    Sheesh.
     
  5. Batnole1

    Batnole1 Walk-on
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    The standards at FSU would not be lowered. Any FAMU student would be subject to the transfer standards if they wanted to attend FSU. If they do not meet them, they can attend TCC until they get their AA and can apply under the articulation agreement.

    In fact, I think that as part of the merger, TCC should become Tallahassee State College.

    So basically, you'd be down to FSU and TSC in Tallahassee. The FAMU students, faculty/staff and programs can be placed at whatever institution is more appropriate. FSU would need to have a College of Agriculture and Mechanical Studies where the history and traditions of Florida A&M can be retained and hopefully advanced.
     
  6. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    I think what the prior poster is saying is that if the universities were merged, then FAMU supporters would try to make a run at FAMU absorbing FSU instead of the reverse.
     
  7. Batnole1

    Batnole1 Walk-on
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    I think that LeaveBritneyAlone answered that sufficiently. That (FAMU running the merged institution) would never happen, though their alumni would rightly demand that we find some way to honor the history and traditions.
     
  8. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    I like the plan, and it probably makes a lot of sense for lots of reasons, but you saw the stink made by FAMU supporters about the College of Engineering. Can you imagine the stink of a suggestion to merge FAMU into FSU?
     
  9. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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  10. Sawyer55

    Sawyer55 Ultimate Seminole Insider
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  11. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    Here is an article from the Democrat with the headlines "FAMU sees nearly 40 percent increase in freshmen accepted for summer, fall."

    The question is whether the bump in acceptances means FAMU leadership has gone back to a philosophy of admitting a high number of "profile admits," simply to fill the coffers (something that put FAMU in a really big mess), or whether FAMU has gotten better at marketing to prospective students.

    http://www.tallahassee.com/story/ne...-freshmen-accepted-for-summer-fall/100761040/
     
  12. Uniformed_ReRe

    Uniformed_ReRe Contributor
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    From that article:

    "The average ACT score is about 21 while the average SAT score is 1070."

    Assuming that's on a 1600 scale, I think that's actually an improvement for them. I remember seeing sub-1000 SAT averages for FAMU freshman, not long ago. 1070 is still 200-250 points below FSU's average freshman profile these days, but if FAMU actually managed to boost their average stats while somehow also boosting enrollment, that's quite an impressive success. Good for them.
     
  13. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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  14. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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  15. HilltopperNole

    HilltopperNole All-ACC
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  16. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    It's interesting. They are still casting shade at Elmira Mangum over on the FAMU blog in response to these firings. I cannot tell whether these changes are intended to help FAMU or just return control of FAMU to the "old guard" that ran FAMU into the ground in the first place.

    Anyone have any idea?

    "A university spokeswoman refused to explain why the deans have been demoted, but all appear to have been struggling in their positions."

    Some other articles:

    http://www.wctv.tv/content/news/FAM...ns-for-three-academic-programs-420952084.html

    http://news.wfsu.org/post/demotion-famu-law-dean-latest-string-removals
     
    56 NoleOne, May 4, 2017
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  17. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    Weird article about FAMU:

    The author makes an odd attempt to blame FSU for FAMU's recent failures.

    But what is critical to remember is that in the same winter of performance-based based bad news, Florida State University President John Thrasher and Tallahassee Community College President Jim Murdaugh were praising Florida A&M University then-Interim President Larry Robinson.

    And now their schools are okay while FAMU is left with a paltry set of appropriations and zero-sum gain for some of its critical capital funding requests in an $88.7 billion budget. To many, it seemed that system presidents endorsing FAMU’s would-be presidential candidate were a sign of good vibes statewide; that Dr. Robinson would finally lead the school for which he served as a three-time interim to a new level of performance and partnership with the state’s higher ed objectives.

    The state established new rules on presidential search processes, only to exempt FAMU from the guidelines to hire Dr. Robinson.

    And now, the state shows its commitment to marginalizing FAMU in the ways it always has.

    Thrasher and Murdaugh chimed in with their endorsement of Dr. Robinson to lead FAMU, but will they chime in against the state’s divestment in the school and its sabotage of Dr. Robinson’s administration? Will the Board of Governors reverse course on performance-based funding metrics in the way it did to usher Dr. Robinson into the presidency?

    It begs the question; why would the entire State System of Florida work so hard in word and deed to get Dr. Robinson into power, only to swiftly set him up for failure?

    Huh?

    https://hbcudigest.com/for-famu-it-was-all-good-just-a-year-ago/

    Weird article.
     
  18. squiffynole

    squiffynole Ultimate Seminole Insider
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    Instead of making stuff up the writer would do better focusing on solutions to FAMU's chronic in-house problems.
     
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  19. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    Agreed.

    The black vs. white angle when it comes to FSU and FAMU is just weak. There are more minority students attending FSU than FAMU, for goodness sakes.

    Take the following quote from the article:

    Less than a year ago, Florida A&M University was boxed out of performance-based funding after posting third-to-last on several of the state’s metrics for institutional success. Nine months later, the state legislature threw more zeroes at its flagship historically black college, while its predominantly white neighbor came up aces in new capital funding.

    Heck, FSU just won its fourth consecutive national Florida State received the Higher Education Excellence in Diversity (HEED) Award from INSIGHT Into Diversity magazine, the oldest and largest diversity-focused publication in higher education. FSU has also been named a diversity champion by Insight into Diversity. FSU has won a boatload of other diversity awards.

    The comparison between FAMU and FSU is not black v. white. If anything, it is black vs. a spectrum.

    It just bugs me.
     
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  20. PoseidoNole

    PoseidoNole Starter
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    FAMU is now a relic of the past. And that is a very good thing. It has a proud history but a bleak future. FSU is the better & more diverse school with a lot more interest from prospective students (of all backgrounds). The gap will only widen. Time for change. Find a way to honor some of FAMU's key traditions and combine. Otherwise FAMU can continue its downward spiral into complete irrelevance. It's up to the Rattlers.
     
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  21. Sawyer55

    Sawyer55 Ultimate Seminole Insider
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    It's all just political BS. Stay away from FAMU because even if you try and do like Thrasher did, play nice, they basically get mad at you latter. You just can't win.
     
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  22. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    I thought folks here might find it interesting that this thread got the attention of an HBCU digest author:

    https://hbcudigest.com/what-some-florida-state-fans-think-about-a-famu-fsu-merger/

    I don't disagree that if you are African American, poor and your grades are not very good, then Florida A&M probably offers a better shot than FSU at admission, but you cannot ignore the fact that FSU has won numerous diversity awards for its very progressive admissions policies and its C.A.R.E. program. The FSU C.A.R.E. program has an express mission "to contribute to the successful retention and graduation of undergraduate students who have been disadvantaged by virtue of economic or educational circumstances."

    https://care.fsu.edu/about-care

    Moreover, I would argue that FAMU does not offer a prospective student who is both poor and African American a better shot at "graduation and post-graduate earnings" because, among other reasons, FAMU's graduation rate is so bad. FAMU's six-year graduation rate is around 40% and four-year graduation rate is around 12%. FAMU currently has a very bad rep for high levels of student debt and not graduating the students that are admitted.

    Just to be clear, I do not advocate for closing FAMU and agree that FAMU has an important mission. I do, however, believe that FAMU and FSU are different schools with different missions so it makes it very difficult to a successful partnership at the FAMU/FSU COE.

    I was also disappointed with the author's commentary that being critical of FAMU is racist and the false premise that FAMU = Black and FSU = White. It's just completely contrary to demographics of both schools. More minority students attend FSU than FAMU.

    The ironic thing is that this whole discussion is based on a desire to improve the FAMU/FSU COE, which means improved education and research dollars for both FSU and FAMU students and faculty.
     
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  23. 12Nole

    12Nole Ultimate Seminole Insider
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    I'm embarrassed for JL Carter Sr. that he wrote this piece and even better he actually used a football message board as his sample size to back up his argument.

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Sawyer55

    Sawyer55 Ultimate Seminole Insider
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    FSU fan base and leadership will never learn.

    You can't win with FAMU. You are always the bad guy. Period. I support FAMU, but try not to discuss their situation one way or the other and DEFINITELY never try to tie it to FSU in anyway. Because everything said or suggested will be used similar to that article. Basically be called a racist.

    Above ALL ELSE, this includes the FSU fan base hoping/suggesting/predicting FAMU will combine with FSU in some way. Just stop it......It's not productive. Just stop.

    I want FAMU to survive and thrive. I want FSU to do the same. Both sides can't seem to interact AT ALL beyond those statements without one side calling the other racist.

    Focus on FSU and leave FAMU alone. I don't get why many on this board discuss them so much. Rip away, but its true.
     
    64 Sawyer55, Mar 26, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  25. 89nole

    89nole All-ACC
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    Very well said
     
  26. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    We discuss FAMU because FSU shares a COE with FAMU.

    We should keep our eyes on FAMU because FSU has a vested interest in ensuring that FAMU pulls its weight regarding the COE for purposes of (1) (first and foremost) providing COE students the best education possible, (2) increasing research dollars, and (3) meeting FSU's stated goals.
     
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  27. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    Some quotes from the "article":

    "But what they don’t see is thow FAMU gives so many FSU undergrads an affordable shot at masters’ and doctoral education, which they can’t get at FSU."

    Comment: Not true. FSU is just as affordable as FAMU. As a state school, tuition is affordable for residents and Florida students can also take advantage of tuition breaks through the Bright Futures program that tracks academic progress and community involvement during high school.

    "They don’t see that if you are African American and poor, Florida A&M offers a better shot at admission, graduation and post-graduate earnings than FSU offers."

    Comment: Already discussed. I also note that as of 2013, the six year graduation rate at FSU is 72.7 and 74.1 for African American and White students, respectively. Conversely, FAMU's 6 year graduation rate is 39%.

    "But most importantly, they don’t see that Florida almost has to guarantee FAMU’s survival and the ability for certain programs to thrive, because anything less is likely to trigger a federal desegregation lawsuit that the state would likely lose, which would likely cost billions of dollars to fix and would deepen racial animosity between citizens. And those billions would come right out of FSU’s budget, along with programs, resources and students in an effort to make FAMU more equitable."

    Comment: Those federal desegregation lawsuit are interesting cases. I have no idea the author's statement with respect to the Florida higher education system is accurate, given the progressive admissions policies of the Florida Statewide University System and the Florida Colleges (formerly community colleges), not to mention the very diverse ethnic composition of all Florida higher education institutions. No Florida higher education institution is "white". All are a blend of races. Heck, FSU is listed as one of the 30 Best U.S. Non-HBCU Schools for Minorities: http://diverseeducation.com/article/53530/. Again, I just don't know enough about the legal to provide a substantive comment.

    FYI - According to the 2005 census, the racial distributions of Florida are as follows; 60.1% White, 17% African American (includes Afro-Caribbeans), 2.1% Asian American, 1.4% others (American Indians). The remaining 20% are Hispanics or Latino (of any ethnicity or national origin). Here is a report on Florida diversity in higher education: https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/student-diversity-2016

    "That’s what some Florida State lovers don’t get. No, its not our job to make them smarter about it, but it is our job to ensure that as many people as possible are exposed to the best of what FAMU has to offer, and not just the controversial parts which come being a historically black school in a historically white town."

    Comment: I agree that FAMU offers a lot. Just so you know, the Tallahassee Metro area is 57.4% white and 35% African-American.

    "After all, folks in Tallhassee deserve to know the truth; a FAMU that simply exists virtually gurantees a strong Florida State. And fortunately for them, enough of FAMU’s leadership is comfortable enough with that prospect to ensure its success, year after year."

    Comment: I think we all want a strong FAMU. That's part of the point. But FAMU is not beyond criticism, simply because it has a historical (and noble) mission of educating African Americans. And FAMU should not have the unilateral right to prohibit or hinder FSU from meeting its stated goals in terms of quality of education or otherwise.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  28. Uniformed_ReRe

    Uniformed_ReRe Contributor
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    You should be used to it by now. This has always been FAMU's main tactic.

    And it works. Most politicians don't dare question FAMU. By effectively wielding the R-Bomb, FAMU has positioned themselves as a political third rail that no one really wants to deal with.
     
  29. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    You are correct. Dialogue like that from a HBCU publication creates a disincentive to ever enter voluntarily into a mutually beneficial arrangement between the two institutions, which is really sad. I mean, we are talking about the very noble goals of providing the best possible engineering education and wanting the COE to provide the best ROI for students, professors, the local community, and the state in Florida.

    True partnership and collegiality between FSU and FAMU could be good for so many people.
     
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  30. 89nole

    89nole All-ACC
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    I think there is a fair amount of collegiality between the administrations. Trying to use a student newspaper and a message board as examples is not good.
     
  31. NoleOne

    NoleOne Veteran Seminole Insider
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    Agreed. Let's hope that the administrators from both institutions continue to see the tremendous benefits of collegiality and cooperation.

    I don't think the dialogue on this board expressing a desire to shut down or merge FAMU is particularly helpful. I just want both institutions to do what it takes to make the COE a world-class college of engineering.

    A desire for COE to become a world-class college of engineering sometimes requires the discussion of FAMU's shortcomings in its partnership with FSU in the COE. Those shortcoming should not be a taboo subject. If it is a taboo subject, then there will never be corrective actions. If there are not corrective actions, then FSU and FAMU students and professors suffer.

    I actually think that the recent restructuring of the COE were most of those necessary corrective actions and are going to make it a better college nationally if they can actually get the necessary funding from the Florida legislature.
     
    71 NoleOne, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  32. 89nole

    89nole All-ACC
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    I think Thrasher got the best deal he could. I he could not get this legislature and this governor to seriously consider a split its not going to happen in the foreseeable future. I think the school has made strides recently the legislature did not reward that shame on them. Of course on WC it got to be FAMU's fault and if not FAMU then FSU.
     

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