National Anthem & The NFL

[ReliableOstrich]

If 10 or so players per team start doing this plenty of people will start tuning out.

12 Browns did it last night, in addition to 4 other guys who stood along side them. This includes a few high draft picks, the starting RB, punter, future QB, 1st rd Peppers.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-circle-national-anthem-monday-preseason-game

Now it's Cleveland and they're a hopeless franchise regardless, but those fans LOVE the Browns. We'll see if you're right I guess.

 

[LesClaypool]

12 Browns did it last night, in addition to 4 other guys who stood along side them. This includes a few high draft picks, the starting RB, punter, future QB, 1st rd Peppers.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-circle-national-anthem-monday-preseason-game

Now it's Cleveland and they're a hopeless franchise regardless, but those fans LOVE the Browns. We'll see if you're right I guess.

Yep. I saw that. This will be a serious test to the boycott movement. The Browns have basically dared their fans not to watch or buy tickets.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Yep. I saw that. This will be a serious test to the boycott movement. The Browns have basically dared their fans not to watch or buy tickets.

Metro Cleveland is pretty liberal. Also Cle is home to Tamir Rice, so they've had some hands on experience w/ police shooting unarmed minorities.

The rural areas beyond Cle are very conservative though and I'd imagine many of those folks were not loving the news of a silent protest this morning.

 

[SoddyNole]

Anyone find it interesting or odd that taking a knee is the new symbol of protest? Throughout history it was a symbol of respect, allegiance or submission.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Anyone find it interesting or odd that taking a knee is the new symbol of protest? Throughout history it was a symbol of respect, allegiance or submission.

The original protest was sitting. And I believe a veteran on the 9ers convinced Kap to take a knee instead of sitting as sitting during the Anthem was considered to be more disrespectful to those that served.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Anyone find it interesting or odd that taking a knee is the new symbol of protest? Throughout history it was a symbol of respect, allegiance or submission.

The original protest was sitting. And I believe a veteran on the 9ers convinced Kap to take a knee instead of sitting as sitting during the Anthem was considered to be more disrespectful to those that served.

Kap has been pretty receptive to feedback regarding his protest, modifying it to a knee after speaking with service members.

No matter what he does though, people will cast aspersions upon him that totally miss the point.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Yep. I saw that. This will be a serious test to the boycott movement. The Browns have basically dared their fans not to watch or buy tickets.

The truest test would be for every single team and every single player to do it. Then let's see how much or how little the viewership and attendance drops with prices remaining the same.

 

[LesClaypool]

The truest test would be for every single team and every single player to do it. Then let's see how much or how little the viewership and attendance drops with prices remaining the same.

Why would/should every single player do it?

This was the first mass protest. That will be plenty to test the resolve of the fans, imo.

 

[SoddyNole]

The original protest was sitting. And I believe a veteran on the 9ers convinced Kap to take a knee instead of sitting as sitting during the Anthem was considered to be more disrespectful to those that served.

Still interesting they came up with "bending a knee".

 

[West Duval Nole]

Why would/should every single player do it?

Not saying they would or should. I am saying that to me would be the truest test as that would mean every single player is doing it. I don't think this would ever happen. So even if a majority of fans disagree with it. Do they disagree enough to no longer attend or watch the games? Shouldn't take too long to see if the attendance dips or the tv ratings drop. This will take into account whether it is a good team or bad team and whether the team is having a good season or bad season.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Not saying they would or should. I am saying that to me would be the truest test as that would mean every single player is doing it. I don't think this would ever happen. So even if a majority of fans disagree with it. Do they disagree enough to no longer attend or watch the games? Shouldn't take too long to see if the attendance dips or the tv ratings drop. This will take into account whether it is a good team or bad team and whether the team is having a good season or bad season.

I get what you're saying, but it's kind of an impractical hypothetical. Just like what if every NCAA player went on strike / unionized hoping for compensation. Not gonna happen.

One other thing about not injecting politics into sports...
Aren't we doing that by default when we unfurl 100 yard long flags and do air force flyovers? There's an inherent political undercurrent and indoctrination in those activities. Is it fair to bring patriotism and war fighters onto the field but then be upset when someone silently protests for equality? Isn't that just as inherently part of our American fabric as that of the symbolic flag we salute?

This has been a really nice and thoughtful thread by the way. Props to the mods and participants.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I get what you're saying, but it's kind of an impractical hypothetical. Just like what if every NCAA player went on strike / unionized hoping for compensation. Not gonna happen.

One other thing about not injecting politics into sports...
Aren't we doing that by default when we unfurl 100 yard long flags and do air force flyovers? There's an inherent political undercurrent and indoctrination in those activities. Is it fair to bring patriotism and war fighters onto the field but then be upset when someone silently protests for equality?

This has been a really nice and thoughtful thread by the way. Props to the mods and participants.

Maybe, but I never get tired of seeing the flag in any setting.

 

[PoopandBoogers]

Aren't we doing that by default when we unfurl 100 yard long flags and do air force flyovers? There's an inherent political undercurrent and indoctrination in those activities. Is it fair to bring patriotism and war fighters onto the field but then be upset when someone silently protests for equality?

Yeah, but the parachutes and stealth bombers are pretty badass doe.

 

[DFSNOLE]

It seems to me, from my circle of friends and acquaintances, that most of those most upset aren't big football fans in the first place. So for them to say that they're not going to watch anymore is meaningless. They weren't watching in the first place.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

It seems to me, from my circle of friends and acquaintances, that most of those most upset aren't big football fans in the first place. So for them to say that they're not going to watch anymore is meaningless. They weren't watching in the first place.

I've also got black friends who've begun organizing their own boycott of the NFL due to a belief that Kap is being blackballed.

At the end of the day the NFL is starting to take punches from both sides, people who don't want to see these silent protests and people who are upset that front offices are blackballing a player speaking up on behalf of equality/justice.

If the NFL had any guts, which it doesn't because Goodell is a spineless myopic money chaser, here's what it should do...

Start a foundation/initiative similar to their "Play 60" or the NBA's "NBA Cares" wherein players can channel and focus their desire for social and criminal justice reforms and improvements. This gives the players a more organized platform that's likely to be more effective. It admits that we as a country still have room to grow. It takes these protests off the field, hence no longer on camera and annoying some fans, and moves them into a more productive and action oriented process of creating the change they seek.

It's a win-win. But the NFL has to have the 'guts' to admit that we as a nation can be better about equality and that there are still racial injustices. Seems easy to admit, it's not exactly a controversial position to take, but the NFL loves missing the layups.

 

[FSUdawg]

At the same time, if an athlete takes a knee quietly near the training table for 2-3 mins, what's the big deal. None of these guys are making a show of it, they go to the back of the sideline and do it away from the field.

You almost have to seek them out to be discomforted by what they're doing.

IMO, the problem isn't so much the players doing it, it is the media throwing it in everyone's faces. Would it have been noticed last night that 12 Browns players took a knee? Yes, by some fans. Would it be a huge issue for the masses if the media didn't report it? Nope. Honestly I wouldn't have even known about it since I missed the early part of the game. The only reason I know about it is I heard about it this morning about a dozen times on various TV stations.

As for what the league should do, I agree they should setup something to channel this energy into good instead of just letting players take a knee. If it becomes a big issue, which I think it will if the league doesn't step in and do something, the players might just be kept off the field until after the national anthem...like it was less than a decade ago.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

IMO, the problem isn't so much the players doing it, it is the media throwing it in everyone's faces. Would it have been noticed last night that 12 Browns players took a knee? Yes, by some fans. Would it be a huge issue for the masses if the media didn't report it? Nope. Honestly I wouldn't have even known about it since I missed the early part of the game. The only reason I know about it is I heard about it this morning about a dozen times on various TV stations.

As for what the league should do, I agree they should setup something to channel this energy into good instead of just letting players take a knee. If it becomes a big issue, which I think it will if the league doesn't step in and do something, the players might just be kept off the field until after the national anthem...like it was less than a decade ago.

The media should cover it but I agree they go overboard with it. Oversaturating anyone with anything is going to create backlash. Part of the reason the whole country hates tebow isn't because he's an unrepentant douche but because they got tired of hearing espn go on and on about his every move.

Such is life in the 24 hour news cycle. Viewers need to be more media literate and know when to change the channel. More than an hour of any news station or sportscenter is flat out counter productive unless there's some legitimate earth changing breaking news.

 

[seminole97]

The Browns have basically dared their fans not to watch or buy tickets.

What's new?

 

[kc78]

This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread or it will be shut down because it's impossible for me to talk about this with any depth without it becoming political. Kap is protesting because of the injustice he sees in America towards people of color that still exists but is ignored by white America because it doesn't happen to them. The only way to get people to even talk about it is to do something visible. I've yet to see any form of protest by black Americans that hasn't resorted in somebody being offended and telling them they should have done it another way. The point is, no matter how they do it, some people (Probably a lot of them) are going to get angry and just want them to be quiet so they can ignore it.

I'd love for everyone of you to spend a year, as I and a few other people I know have, intentionally developing lots of diverse relationships, and then simply sitting down and listening, attempting my best to understand without lecturing, and then marinate in it for a while. I will never, ever see America the same. I've simply been blind. For some of us, it's too painful to take off the blinders, we prefer our view of America. For many people, including many, many people of color, they don't get to wear the blinders. They don't get to escape from the politics through sports, or music, because the politics we're discussing is their every day existence as a people group.

I'll stop there before I get your thread shut down.

 

[LesClaypool]

I'd love for everyone of you to spend a year, as I and a few other people I know have, intentionally developing lots of diverse relationships

 

[bigjkt405]

This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread or it will be shut down because it's impossible for me to talk about this with any depth without it becoming political. Kap is protesting because of the injustice he sees in America towards people of color that still exists but is ignored by white America because it doesn't happen to them. The only way to get people to even talk about it is to do something visible. I've yet to see any form of protest by black Americans that hasn't resorted in somebody being offended and telling them they should have done it another way. The point is, no matter how they do it, some people (Probably a lot of them) are going to get angry and just want them to be quiet so they can ignore it.

I'd love for everyone of you to spend a year, as I and a few other people I know have, intentionally developing lots of diverse relationships, and then simply sitting down and listening, attempting my best to understand without lecturing, and then marinate in it for a while. I will never, ever see America the same. I've simply been blind. For some of us, it's too painful to take off the blinders, we prefer our view of America. For many people, including many, many people of color, they don't get to wear the blinders. They don't get to escape from the politics through sports, or music, because the politics we're discussing is their every day existence as a people group.

I'll stop there before I get your thread shut down.

BRAVO!!!!!!!

 

[ReliableOstrich]

This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread or it will be shut down because it's impossible for me to talk about this with any depth without it becoming political. Kap is protesting because of the injustice he sees in America towards people of color that still exists but is ignored by white America because it doesn't happen to them. The only way to get people to even talk about it is to do something visible. I've yet to see any form of protest by black Americans that hasn't resorted in somebody being offended and telling them they should have done it another way. The point is, no matter how they do it, some people (Probably a lot of them) are going to get angry and just want them to be quiet so they can ignore it.

I'd love for everyone of you to spend a year, as I and a few other people I know have, intentionally developing lots of diverse relationships, and then simply sitting down and listening, attempting my best to understand without lecturing, and then marinate in it for a while. I will never, ever see America the same. I've simply been blind. For some of us, it's too painful to take off the blinders, we prefer our view of America. For many people, including many, many people of color, they don't get to wear the blinders. They don't get to escape from the politics through sports, or music, because the politics we're discussing is their every day existence as a people group.

I'll stop there before I get your thread shut down.

Great post, thank you!

I can't help but wonder, if some random player, say Charles Clay or Brock Osweiler, decided to kneel during the anthem a few years ago because they lost a sister or mother to ovarian cancer and thought the amount of attention paid to it was desperately lacking.. would there be this kind of uproar?

Basically, is it the form of protest or the subject matter that's got people annoyed?

 

[RangerNole]

12 Browns did it last night, in addition to 4 other guys who stood along side them. This includes a few high draft picks, the starting RB, punter, future QB, 1st rd Peppers.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-circle-national-anthem-monday-preseason-game

Now it's Cleveland and they're a hopeless franchise regardless, but those fans LOVE the Browns. We'll see if you're right I guess.

I guess we will and I expect it to spread to other sports possibly. Big mistake imo. The NFL and most of its' advertisers have always been seen as untouchable. Not really sure how this plays out; especially in what seems to be if you don't agree with me you are evil and should die mindset. My whole issue with this is you are doing this at work and while you are at work you have to follow whatever rules are in place; maybe the NFL doesn't care and that is fine, however a certain percentage of their customers will. How much is the question and will it roll into advertisers.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I guess we will and I expect it to spread to other sports possibly. Big mistake imo. The NFL and most of its' advertisers have always been seen as untouchable. Not really sure how this plays out; especially in what seems to be if you don't agree with me you are evil and should die mindset. My whole issue with this is you are doing this at work and while you are at work you have to follow whatever rules are in place; maybe the NFL doesn't care and that is fine, however a certain percentage of their customers will. How much is the question and will it roll into advertisers.

Hypothetically, if 5-6 FSU players silently take a knee next to the medical tent this season, do you think fewer folks are going to show up?
Do you think folks will decide not to tune into games?
Do you think fans will berate a starting DB or OL for this?

(truth be told, I can't even remember if our team is on the field for the anthem)

As DFS said, half-way fans maybe the ones boycott , but they weren't large rev gen for the league anyway. Maybe fans of some awful teams (Browns, Jets, etc...) will stay home or skip watching, but fans of teams that are actually legit... I can't imagine them tuning out while knowing their team maybe making the playoffs.

 

[RangerNole]

Hypothetically, if 5-6 FSU players silently take a knee next to the medical tent this season, do you think fewer folks are going to show up?
Do you think folks will decide not to tune into games?
Do you think fans will berate a starting DB or OL for this?

(truth be told, I can't even remember if our team is on the field for the anthem)

As DFS said, half-way fans maybe the ones boycott , but they weren't large rev gen for the league anyway. Maybe fans of some awful teams (Browns, Jets, etc...) will stay home or skip watching, but fans of teams that are actually legit... I can't imagine them tuning out while knowing their team maybe making the playoffs.

If it happened at FSU I am sure some people would stop coming; maybe watch at home instead. I think the bond between a college fan and team is stronger than the bond most people have with a pro team; so college would likely be effected less. The other big difference is the school could stop it on the spot and most would; although some schools would probably endorse it. The other thing colleges have that would have a major impact is boosters. 10 boosters make a call and say our team better stand or my check isn't written next year; you better believe the players will start standing.
I just disagree that it won't effect the NFL or other leagues (some more than others), if this turns into 10 players or more per team. Some in the public/fans will view the players as over paid complainers and buy less gear watch less etc. Supposedly this had an effect last year on viewership; but I haven't seen any evidence I would take to the bank. IMO it is just a bad idea to start having your business get involved in political stuff while at the office. If you went to a store and before your purchase was complete you had to watch or listen to a political statement you may just decide to stop going to that store. Now if when you are not at work and want to contribute to a cause or speak out on an issue who cares. I guess we will see how this plays out.