The Economic Disaster of the Pandemic Response

[fsufool]

And btw, the way Dr Fauci handled and explained his original flip re wearing of masks was undoubtedly clumsy and damaged public trust; I’ve never disputed that, but humans are fallible, especially in crisis mode, and he remains a much more qualified and trustworthy leader of public health policy than any of his legions of uberpoliticized and underqualified mockers and demonizers.

You remain absolutely 100% incorrect (and I’m assuming knowingly so) in your continued attempts to dismiss masks as having zero respiratory disease spread mitigation value. Please review the meaning of mitigation if you need to.
That’s why you refuse to present anything approaching a complete picture of the prevailing science on this matter. It certainly does not support your commentary on masks.

Here, I’ll help you, and this easy read includes an honest assessment of Fauci’s missteps on masking, so you should appreciate that…

Anthony Fauci May Not Have 'Lied' About Face Masks, but He Was Not Exactly Honest Either

reason.com

So, you left out an important part of my statement.

For example, there is two generations of research on mask filtering that told us that even N95 masks worn by the public wasn't going to mitigate a respiratory virus.

"worn by the public"

Here is the latest on N95 versus surgical masks.

ACP Journals

www.acpjournals.org

Finally, there are a ton of charts looking at population level data for masking.
Comparing different masking mitigation strategies and different countries level of spread pre-mitigation and post mitigation.

There are easy to find if you choose.

 

[NoleSince1961]

So, you left out an important part of my statement.


"worn by the public"

Here is the latest on N95 versus surgical masks.

ACP Journals

www.acpjournals.org

Finally, there are a ton of charts looking at population level data for masking.
Comparing different masking mitigation strategies and different countries level of spread pre-mitigation and post mitigation.

There are easy to find if you choose.

Do you agree that words matter and specificity is pretty damn important when discussing complex life-and-death matters?
If you don’t agree with that premise, we can just stop our exchange, since that would make it absolutely futile.

If you do agree, then are you now shifting your original very definitive statements (the ones I was refuting) of:
“For example, there is two generations of research on mask filtering that told us that even N95 masks worn by the public wasn't going to mitigate a respiratory virus.”
and
“Masks were useless in mitigating Covid”

to something more nuanced, like “Public use of masks should not have been expected to mitigate spread of Covid sufficiently to merit the risks of X, Y and Z”?

If you’re sticking with your original zero mitigation contention, then yes, I’ll take the time once again to refute that, since it’s contradicted by the majority of credible science, and virtually every respected medical/public health organization disagrees with you.

If you’re now reframing that to an argument about the degree of mitigation and cost/benefit projections that you think should have been made differently at the time based on the data available, then we can simply agree to disagree.

There’s certainly more room in that stance for reasonable arguments in either direction, although I strongly believe the costs of masking have been overblown by its critics and the justifications and value of the projected benefits at the time masking was being widely promoted have been undervalued by its critics.

 

[NoleSince1961]

Do you agree that words matter and specificity is pretty damn important when discussing complex life-and-death matters?
If you don’t agree with that premise, we can just stop our exchange, since that would make it absolutely futile.

If you do agree, then are you now shifting your original very definitive statements (the ones I was refuting) of:
“For example, there is two generations of research on mask filtering that told us that even N95 masks worn by the public wasn't going to mitigate a respiratory virus.”
and
“Masks were useless in mitigating Covid”

to something more nuanced, like “Public use of masks should not have been expected to mitigate spread of Covid sufficiently to merit the risks of X, Y and Z”?

If you’re sticking with your original zero mitigation contention, then yes, I’ll take the time once again to refute that, since it’s contradicted by the majority of credible science, and virtually every respected medical/public health organization disagrees with you.

If you’re now reframing that to an argument about the degree of mitigation and cost/benefit projections that you think should have been made differently at the time based on the data available, then we can simply agree to disagree.

There’s certainly more room in that stance for reasonable arguments in either direction, although I strongly believe the costs of masking have been overblown by its critics and the justifications and value of the projected benefits at the time masking was being widely promoted have been undervalued by its critics.

And to make 100% sure everybody is on the same page, "mitigate" does NOT mean to prevent. It means to reduce/lessen the severity of something.
Two very different premises there.

Definition of MITIGATE

to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify; to make less severe or painful : alleviate; extenuate… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[GeddyLee09]

And to make 100% sure everybody is on the same page, "mitigate" does NOT mean to prevent. It means to reduce/lessen the severity of something.
Two very different premises there.

Definition of MITIGATE

to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify; to make less severe or painful : alleviate; extenuate… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

In good news Fox is reporting the "triple-demic" is upon us. Supposedly its Covid, Flu and RSV season so now we can combine all these numbers and track its spread as it paralyses the nation. Maybe we can call it CFRSV+?

https://www.foxnews.com/health/us-hospitalizations-rise-respiratory-viruses-spread

 

[NoleSince1961]

In good news Fox is reporting the "triple-demic" is upon us. Supposedly its Covid, Flu and RSV season so now we can combine all these numbers and track its spread as it paralyses the nation. Maybe we can call it CFRSV+?

https://www.foxnews.com/health/us-hospitalizations-rise-respiratory-viruses-spread

Don’t forget seasonal depression, Christmas tree fires and holiday decorations ladder falls, as well as Hanukkah latke grease burns.
Plus FSU men’s hoops.
Spring better get here quick.

 

[rtpnole]

One major difference though is that your stubborn diabetics don’t pose the same magnitude, urgency and types of threats to immediate public health, stretched virus-specific resources in very short supply, virus mutation impacts, etc etc as the “freedom fighter” ultra-skeptics do during an infectious disease pandemic. And no matter how much anybody says “cool, play dumb games and win dumb prizes, but don’t show up asking for help later”, there’s no reasonable way to keep them from sucking up healthcare resources if/when they do face a severe outcome.

If they could suffer their own consequences without all the collateral damage, I’d agree with the more laisez faire approach (too lazy to look up spelling)… not to suggest that diabetes doesn’t carry its own basket of collateral damage impacts.

Agree 100 %. As the saying goes, “You’re freedom ends at my nose.” My father went into the hospital two years ago with wound issues with his legs. Tested negative when entered and two weeks later when they transferred him to a rehab facility. One week after that, he spiked a fever. Three days later his oxygen saturation cratered. Three days later, he died.
I’ve often wondered how many so called freedom lovers contributed to someone in that facility being able to infect the patients. People can’t seem to get their heads around the fact that the vulnerable can NEVER be protected if the young and healthy take zero precautions and walk around like so many incubators. These are the ones responsible for putting them at risk, not hospitals or even the evil Dr. Fauci. Scientist and proudly elitist since 1986😉

 

[rtpnole]

And to make 100% sure everybody is on the same page, "mitigate" does NOT mean to prevent. It means to reduce/lessen the severity of something.
Two very different premises there.

Definition of MITIGATE

to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify; to make less severe or painful : alleviate; extenuate… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1961, you should read the study out of the state of Kansas from the beginning of the pandemic. Some counties instituted a mask mandate and some kept it voluntary. The mandate counties saw a decrease in cases and the voluntary counties saw an increase. Nothing was absolute, but there was mitigation. As I learned in stats at FSU, things are never 0% or 100%.

 

[rtpnole]

I haven't had even one shot and will not get one. Once it has been lab tested for 5-10 years, they can get back to me. The idea of them jabbing a needle full of that stuff in a five year old just sends shivers down my spine.

Glad you have such first world issues. My father died from COVID THREE WEEKS before the vaccines became available.

 

[goldmom]

1961, you should read the study out of the state of Kansas from the beginning of the pandemic. Some counties instituted a mask mandate and some kept it voluntary. The mandate counties saw a decrease in cases and the voluntary counties saw an increase. Nothing was absolute, but there was mitigation. As I learned in stats at FSU, things are never 0% or 100%.

I wonder what other factors would have played a role in those stats?

 

[rtpnole]

I wonder what other factors would have played a role in those stats?

True enough. Lots of things are at play. Distancing would be another but I don’t think they measured that. Seems to me that anything that moves you in the right direction is worth considering.

 

[MagNoleA]

I wonder what other factors would have played a role in those stats?

I wonder if you could possibly get on the show, "Unsolved Mysteries" with these concerns; and offer a generous tip line on the backside with a hefty reward of five $29.95 beers at our next game? Just follow your heart. And make them say no.

 

[ParooKid]

Glad you have such first world issues. My father died from COVID THREE WEEKS before the vaccines became available.

And, you are convinced it would have saved him? You need to talk to the lady across the street from me. Got the covid shot, got covid. Got the booster shot, got covid. She still has lingering effects of the stuff even after getting a third version of the shot. She openly admits to no expectations from having the shots, yet says she will continue to receive them.

Little kids dropping dead all over the world, young athletes driopping dead in their tracks, both from unexplained, non-existent illnesses. You keep trusting that stuff, that's fine with me, but as for me I'm just fine with being very careful, washing my hands, not touching my nose, wiping down after every outing around town, and putting a small amount of vaseline in my nose regularly. Be well.

 

[rtpnole]

And, you are convinced it would have saved him? You need to talk to the lady across the street from me. Got the covid shot, got covid. Got the booster shot, got covid. She still has lingering effects of the stuff even after getting a third version of the shot. She openly admits to no expectations from having the shots, yet says she will continue to receive them.

Little kids dropping dead all over the world, young athletes driopping dead in their tracks, both from unexplained, non-existent illnesses. You keep trusting that stuff, that's fine with me, but as for me I'm just fine with being very careful, washing my hands, not touching my nose, wiping down after every outing around town, and putting a small amount of vaseline in my nose regularly. Be well.

None of what you bring up is relevant. The point is that due to the behavior of others he never had the chance to get the vaccine. There are a lot of people in this country who, hiding behind the notion that “they have co-morbidities” or “you can’t prove they would have been saved” go on about their business putting others at risk.
Second thing is that no one says the vaccine keeps you from contracting the disease. My wife and I have had 4 boosters and we got it. Moderate head cold symptoms. As far as your neighbor goes, it sounds like the vaccine did it’s job. She may have lingering effects of the disease but she not dead.

 

[GeddyLee09]

None of what you bring up is relevant. The point is that due to the behavior of others he never had the chance to get the vaccine. There are a lot of people in this country who, hiding behind the notion that “they have co-morbidities” or “you can’t prove they would have been saved” go on about their business putting others at risk.
Second thing is that no one says the vaccine keeps you from contracting the disease. My wife and I have had 4 boosters and we got it. Moderate head cold symptoms. As far as your neighbor goes, it sounds like the vaccine did it’s job. She may have lingering effects of the disease but she not dead.

I think the point is that you dont know. There's no way to know that someone is to blame. People in full quarantine can still get sick.

 

[goldmom]

Read a very interesting and objective article in today’s WSJ about the effectiveness of the Boosters as applied to the evolving variants.
I’m very torn about getting the Boosters.
The northeast has the highest percentage of vaxxed and boosted population - and it’s also the area with the highest level of new Covid cases.
The single group with the greatest vulnerability are those over 70 with co-morbidity factors, including the vaccinated.
I’m early into that age group but as of now I have no other known risks like diabetes or chronic issues.

 

[GeddyLee09]

Read a very interesting and objective article in today’s WSJ about the effectiveness of the Boosters as applied to the evolving variants.
I’m very torn about getting the Boosters.
The northeast has the highest percentage of vaxxed and boosted population - and it’s also the area with the highest level of new Covid cases.
The single group with the greatest vulnerability are those over 70 with co-morbidity factors, including the vaccinated.
I’m early into that age group but as of now I have no other known risks like diabetes or chronic issues.

I look at it like this. The shots were basically mandated at first and through the first round of boosters or so. Then they weren't anymore. Why? I know the courts got involved and all but if there was medical data to back up the shots they would still be mandated. Its not just in the US either, many other places have abandoned the shot requirement. I got the first set and a booster but that's all ill get vice some new details we haven't seen yet.

 

[BrainVision]

My workplace is still mandating vaccination and boosters, and we are returning to universal indoor mask mandates. My specific facility never dropped the mask mandate.

I have had the original series, the booster, and then the bivalent update. I assume that I will be getting an updated vaccine annually for the foreseeable future. Personally, I am totally fine with that. I have never contracted Covid, and hopefully I never will.

 

[goldmom]

I’m vaccinated but got Covid in 2021 and got a Regeneron treatment. No booster as yet.

 

[GeddyLee09]

My workplace is still mandating vaccination and boosters, and we are returning to universal indoor mask mandates. My specific facility never dropped the mask mandate.

I have had the original series, the booster, and then bivalent update. I assume that I will be getting an updated vaccine annually for the foreseeable future. Personally, I am totally fine with that. I have never contracted Covid, and hopefully I never will.

Which state is that?

 

[BrainVision]

Which state is that?

California

 

[F4Gary]

I’m vaccinated but got Covid in 2021 and got a Regeneron treatment. No booster as yet.

Same here. Haven't gotten a single booster and don't plan on it. My wife never got any of the shots and her Covid was milder than mine.

 

[seminoleed]

I got the Moderna double, plus a booster. Even around Mrs. Ed, when she got it, my only positive test was a pink so faint it almost didn't count, and was gone the next day's test.

Me, I taught 6th grade, and I think it made me so mean and tough that no virus is gonna come near me.

 

[goldmom]

I got the Moderna double, plus a booster. Even around Mrs. Ed, when she got it, my only positive test was a pink so faint it almost didn't count, and was gone the next day's test.

Me, I taught 6th grade, and I think it made me so mean and tough that no virus is gonna come near me.

If you’d only moved up a year and taught 7th graders you could be a drill sargeant at Parris Island. 🤯

 

[surfnole]

The point is that due to the behavior of others he never had the chance to get the vaccine.

What am I missing? The post you quoted said his death occurred three weeks before the vaccine became available. Who is to blame for delays in the vaccine release?

 

[seminole97]

And, you are convinced it would have saved him? You need to talk to the lady across the street from me. Got the covid shot, got covid. Got the booster shot, got covid. She still has lingering effects of the stuff even after getting a third version of the shot.

Sounds like she dodged the ‘dead effect’ from COVID, tho.

 

[seminole97]

I have never contracted Covid, and hopefully I never will.

How often are you tested for antibodies?

There are many people who experience asymptomatic cases.

During August 2021–May 2022, 41.6% of a convenience sample of adults had both anti-spike antibodies (indicating previous infection or vaccination) and anti-nucleocapsid antibodies (indicating previous infection only); 43.7% of these persons were possibly asymptomatically infected.

 

[BrainVision]

I had an antibody test right after emerging from quarantine, which was negative. Since then, I have had a weekly PCR test. My partner has done the same. Neither of us have ever tested positive.

 

[rtpnole]

What am I missing? The post you quoted said his death occurred three weeks before the vaccine became available. Who is to blame for delays in the vaccine release

Nice try, but again not the point. Considering the speed of development of the vaccines they did a real good job of deployment. The whole point of masks and distancing was to keep people, especially the vulnerable from being infected for as long as possible. I’ll never know who was responsible for infecting my Dad. But someone was. I doubt it was in any way malicious. But it happened. Either way, does anyone have any choice but to be at peace with it? Just sayin’😎

 

[rtpnole]

I think the point is that you dont know. There's no way to know that someone is to blame. People in full quarantine can still get sick.

But they’re far less likely to die. THAT is the point and backed up by data.

 

[rtpnole]

And, you are convinced it would have saved him? You need to talk to the lady across the street from me. Got the covid shot, got covid. Got the booster shot, got covid. She still has lingering effects of the stuff even after getting a third version of the shot. She openly admits to no expectations from having the shots, yet says she will continue to receive them.

Little kids dropping dead all over the world, young athletes driopping dead in their tracks, both from unexplained, non-existent illnesses. You keep trusting that stuff, that's fine with me, but as for me I'm just fine with being very careful, washing my hands, not touching my nose, wiping down after every outing around town, and putting a small amount of vaseline in my nose regularly. Be well.

And do you have any data indicating that the vaccine caused any of these events?

 

[GeddyLee09]

Same here. Haven't gotten a single booster and don't plan on it. My wife never got any of the shots and her Covid was milder than mine.

That's what happened to me. I had both shots and a booster and got Covid anyway. Doctor said I had Covid and I asked how he knew without a test. He said it doesn't matter as you have symptom's (I had a cold) and it will be counted as covid. Wife had no shots and tested positive before a flight, no symptoms and was negative a few days later. I wont do anymore shots or tests.

 

[GeddyLee09]

But they’re far less likely to die. THAT is the point and backed up by data.

So someone in quarantine is less likely to die from a contracted virus than someone who caught it walking down the street? I mean with all other things being equal.

 

[seminole97]

 

[rtpnole]

So someone in quarantine is less likely to die from a contracted virus than someone who caught it walking down the street? I mean with all other things being equal.

That’s not what I said. The point of quarantining if necessary is to lower the likelihood of contracting the disease in the first place.

 

[rtpnole]

View embedded media

What’s the old saying? Lies, damn lies and statistics! If you look at the right bar graph, Sweden’s result looks pretty ordinary. In fact, their per capita death rate is least twice that of Norway and New Zealand, countries that did have masking, school closures and social distancing to some extent.

 

[seminole97]

What’s the old saying? Lies, damn lies and statistics! If you look at the right bar graph, Sweden’s result looks pretty ordinary. In fact, their per capita death rate is least twice that of Norway and New Zealand, countries that did have masking, school closures and social distancing to some extent.

The left bar graph highlights that we don’t combat COVID in a vacuum, and it measures the overall impact of policy responses, not just those associated with COVID (a dubious distinction, not uniformly reported).

If you care about the whole of society, the measure you’re looking for is on the left side.

 

[GeddyLee09]

What’s the old saying? Lies, damn lies and statistics! If you look at the right bar graph, Sweden’s result looks pretty ordinary. In fact, their per capita death rate is least twice that of Norway and New Zealand, countries that did have masking, school closures and social distancing to some extent.

However, Sweden's cases per 1M in population (261k) is lower than Norway (267k) and New Zealand (432k) which would say that the virus spread with and without controls in place. If you look at some other European countries with harsh mandates they had even worse case and death numbers. According to Worldometer Sweden was 75th in cases per 1M out of 229 and 49th in deaths per 1M. As a reference the US which had a mixed bag of mandates was 66th and 16th respectively. According to some Sweden with no mandates should have topped both lists.

 

[seminole97]

However, Sweden's cases per 1M in population (261k) is lower than Norway (267k) and New Zealand (432k) which would say that the virus spread with and without controls in place. If you look at some other European countries with harsh mandates they had even worse case and death numbers. According to Worldometer Sweden was 75th in cases per 1M out of 229 and 49th in deaths per 1M. As a reference the US which had a mixed bag of mandates was 66th and 16th respectively. According to some Sweden with no mandates should have topped both lists.

With asymptomatic cases, and testing efficacy of dubious quality, I shy away from making country comparisons on ‘case rates’.
I do think OECD countries have a handle on counting the overall births and deaths in their jurisdictions, and Sweden certainly stands out for having come through the pandemic with the least increase in overall deaths.

 

[GeddyLee09]

I had an antibody test right after emerging from quarantine, which was negative. Since then, I have had a weekly PCR test. My partner has done the same. Neither of us have ever tested positive.

What is the basis for a weekly PCR test? Is there workplace requirement or specific location travel? There doesn't seem to be much push for testing anymore since its here to stay like the seasonal flu. If a PCR test is 150 bucks a pop and you and your partner are testing weekly that's 15k a year in tests.

 

[BrainVision]

What is the basis for a weekly PCR test? Is there workplace requirement or specific location travel? There doesn't seem to be much push for testing anymore since its here to stay like the seasonal flu. If a PCR test is 150 bucks a pop and you and your partner are testing weekly that's 15k a year in tests.

Until recently, it was a requirement of the workplaces. Now, it’s just habit and curiosity. The tests are free for us and provided by our offices. We still have an aggressive quarantine policy following positive tests, as well.