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Cop Kills a Man...w/ Video

Everything I saw said they were going for fullblown murder. But I hope they have the manslaughter option as well. I think cases like the zimmerman case, where a murder conviction is the ONLY option, are not a good idea. I don't have audio today, so I can only say for sure he's guilty of manslaughter. Need to know how the murder statutes read in Ohio.
 
Spearchucker87 said:
Everything I saw said they were going for fullblown murder. But I hope they have the manslaughter option as well. I think cases like the zimmerman case, where a murder conviction is the ONLY option, are not a good idea. I don't have audio today, so I can only say for sure he's guilty of manslaughter. Need to know how the murder statutes read in Ohio.
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Looked like manslaughter to me. I'm guessing the Prosecutor starts with murder and then offers a plea for manslaughter.
 
ABC News reported he tried to cover it up by lying on his report. Additionally, his camera caught him lying to dispatch claiming he was about to be run over by the guy's car. Manslaughter my foot
 
I've never been in a situation like this, so I wonder: Any possibility a person could feel more
threatened than they actually are? Being a LEO cannot be easy, many have been killed
in "routine" traffic stops or other situations. What is the possibility that an officer could
be very apprehensive, and any non-compliance is thought of a threat, or prelude to one?
Any LEOs or psychologists on here?
 
tarheelinfl said:
I've never been in a situation like this, so I wonder: Any possibility a person could feel more
threatened than they actually are? Being a LEO cannot be easy, many have been killed
in "routine" traffic stops or other situations. What is the possibility that an officer could
be very apprehensive, and any non-compliance is thought of a threat, or prelude to one?
Any LEOs or psychologists on here?
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I'm sure acts of non compliance increase a sense of danger and rightfully so. That does not, however, relieve the officer from his duty to behave correctly even under intensely stressful situations.
 
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I watched a long interview. They are going for life in prison.

No one who watches the video will think this is anything other than murder. No way he gets charged with, or pleas to, manslaughter. No way.
 
Cop tries to open door while asking driver to take off his seatbelt off.

Driver doesn't comply with request to take off seatbelt. Instead he pulls back on the door to keep cop from opening with his left hand, and cranks up car with his right hand.

By the time the driver has cranked car, the cop has pulled his gun and has pointed in the window of the car.

From the view of the camera it didn't appear that the cop got a clean shot off. Looked like he was in the beginning phase of falling back when he pulled the trigger. But maybe I'm wrong about this part. Maybe he did have a clean shot, decides to pull trigger, and THEN he fell back.

I personally, at this point, don't think this guy had intentions of murder when he walked up to the car. Looked like he used poor judgment with his gun and because of his poor judgement a man is dead.

Which is manslaughter, correct?

Actually, what is the difference between a murder charge and manslaughter? And are their lesser or worse degrees of each of these?
 
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Nope. Shot the guy right in the head. Dead instantly.

The guy was stupid for driving away. But not stupid enough to be killed for it.
 
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DanC78 said:
From the view of the camera it didn't appear that the cop got a clean shot off.
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Ehh... looked to me like almost a Hollywood-esque type shot to the head TBH. Gun was kind of cocked to the side, from a downward position, and flush against the skull. I only watched it once, because it was pretty brutal.

As for the difference between manslaughter and murder, it has a lot to do with intent, malice, and culpability. So you can kill someone driving recklessly (speeding, swerving lanes) and be charged with manslaughter, because your intent wasn't necessarily to kill someone, and there was little to no malice. Whereas, you press a gun against someone's temple and squeeze the trigger, there's a clear intent to kill and certainly some malice.

Let's also not forget, as I'm sure there will be some who will try to mitigate this execution in some way; there are two other cops who were more than willing to corroborate the other's story, and had it not been for the body cam, I'm quite certain these charges wouldn't have come.
 
IMHO, these killings from cops come from cops who never grew up in a diverse culture. Their fears often exaggerated fear are carried from childhood experiences to adulthood . I bet none of them actually had a playmate , neighbor or a friend of another race. More than likely they stayed on their side of the tracks . Now they have a job which requires him/her to deal with a diverse culture, they have to put their fears aside and police.Not saying that's the sole reason , but I think some of it may be the case. I used to policed with some guys who fit that bill. Amazing how they pass psych evals before they get the job
 
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I think this actually benefits society by getting these 2 dipshits off the streets and out of the gene pool. Win win!
 
If white cops are so freakin scared of black people, maybe they should stop pulling them over for BS reasons....
 
tommynole3476 said:
Ehh... looked to me like almost a Hollywood-esque type shot to the head TBH. Gun was kind of cocked to the side, from a downward position, and flush against the skull. I only watched it once, because it was pretty brutal.

As for the difference between manslaughter and murder, it has a lot to do with intent, malice, and culpability. So you can kill someone driving recklessly (speeding, swerving lanes) and be charged with manslaughter, because your intent wasn't necessarily to kill someone, and there was little to no malice. Whereas, you press a gun against someone's temple and squeeze the trigger, there's a clear intent to kill and certainly some malice.

Let's also not forget, as I'm sure there will be some who will try to mitigate this execution in some way; there are two other cops who were more than willing to corroborate the other's story, and had it not been for the body cam, I'm quite certain these charges wouldn't have come.
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I watched it three times. I didn't even notice the gun being pulled and shot the first time. The second time it appeared that he stuck it in the window and blasted. I didn't see it flush against the temple of the mans head. I thought it was 1 to 2 feet away.
 
DanC78 said:
Cop tries to open door while asking driver to take off his seatbelt off.

Driver doesn't comply with request to take off seatbelt. Instead he pulls back on the door to keep cop from opening with his left hand, and cranks up car with his right hand.

By the time the driver has cranked car, the cop has pulled his gun and has pointed in the window of the car.

From the view of the camera it didn't appear that the cop got a clean shot off. Looked like he was in the beginning phase of falling back when he pulled the trigger. But maybe I'm wrong about this part. Maybe he did have a clean shot, decides to pull trigger, and THEN he fell back.

I personally, at this point, don't think this guy had intentions of murder when he walked up to the car. Looked like he used poor judgment with his gun and because of his poor judgement a man is dead.

Which is manslaughter, correct?

Actually, what is the difference between a murder charge and manslaughter? And are their lesser or worse degrees of each of these?
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I think murder and manslaughter about the degree of reckless disregard (going from bar exam which is a few years ago now). The way I remember it explained - randomly shooting into an empty cargo train and killing someone --> manslaughter, shooting into a passenger train --> murder

driving 120 down the street at 3am and killing someone --> manslaughter...driving that same way 5pm --> murder.

The police officer shooting presents a unique problem because their task is insert themselves in harm's way and keep people (including themselves) safe. Even when a cop behaves improperly, seems like a very fact specific analysis to determine whether to charge with MS or Murder
 
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It's crazy how cops killing unarmed citizens is common place in society and no one really does anything to address the macro problem of bad cops and good cops who'll protect bad cops (in effect making them bad cops also).

And the even larger problem of a police force incentivized to monetize the people they're charged with protecting, a justice system that sentences minorities at higher rates and terms than whites.

When are we going to demand all levels of government crack down on this BS?
 
Once again failure to comply with an officers directions exponentially increases your chances of being shot and or ending up dead. Follow directions and you will come out ok.
 
NoleInNC said:
Once again failure to comply with an officers directions exponentially increases your chances of being shot and or ending up dead. Follow directions and you will come out ok.
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Completely agree. Follow directs and you will usually come out ok. Even if your rights are violated, follow instructions and live to complain about it later.
 
NoleInNC said:
Once again failure to comply with an officers directions exponentially increases your chances of being shot and or ending up dead. Follow directions and you will come out ok.
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Ah yes, let's keep blaming these murders on the person who got murdered.

This is the modern day version of blaming a battered woman for her getting beaten. In 5-10 years these types of responses will solicit jaw dropping gasps. Enjoy being on the wrong side of history on this one.
 
BacardiNole said:
It's crazy how cops killing unarmed citizens is common place in society and no one really does anything to address the macro problem of bad cops and good cops who'll protect bad cops (in effect making them bad cops also).

And the even larger problem of a police force incentivized to monetize the people they're charged with protecting, a justice system that sentences minorities at higher rates and terms than whites.

When are we going to demand all levels of government crack down on this BS?
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Thankfully, it's not common at all. Much, much more common for criminals to shoot unarmed citizens.

Also, research shows minorities are NOT sentenced at higher rates than whites for the same crimes in similar circumstances.

Have no idea what you mean by "a police force incentivized to monetize the people they're charged with protecting."
 
BacardiNole said:
Ah yes, let's keep blaming these murders on the person who got murdered.

This is the modern day version of blaming a battered woman for her getting beaten. In 5-10 years these types of responses will solicit jaw dropping gasps. Enjoy being on the wrong side of history on this one.
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While I don't disagree with you completely, the "battered woman" analogy is not a good one. Neither is the "scantily clad woman asking for it" one that I've seen others use. The cop has a duty to do their job, which sometimes does involve use of deadly force. Doesn't look to me like he was within that right in this case, but it is part of his job, not like an abusive domestic partner, etc.
 
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BacardiNole said:
Ah yes, let's keep blaming these murders on the person who got murdered.

This is the modern day version of blaming a battered woman for her getting beaten. In 5-10 years these types of responses will solicit jaw dropping gasps. Enjoy being on the wrong side of history on this one.
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The dude that beat the woman is a dirtbag that deserves to be punished, but if he has a history of beating of you or other women why in the hell is she still with him. Why put yourself in a situation that you know may end badly.
 
The cop made a conscious decision to pull the gun out of its holster, place it on the man's head and shoot. It wasn't a hair-trigger response.

That said, he didn't appear to approach the guy with any malice when he first stopped him. Just a bizarre situation.
 
BacardiNole said:
Ah yes, let's keep blaming these murders on the person who got murdered.

This is the modern day version of blaming a battered woman for her getting beaten. In 5-10 years these types of responses will solicit jaw dropping gasps. Enjoy being on the wrong side of history on this one.
Click to expand...

Actually, what he said was exactly correct. You greatly reduce the chance of getting hurt by a cop by doing what the cop says. How can you possibly disagree with that? That is not "blaming the victim."

The cop is 100% to blame for shooting that guy. 100%. The guy should have complied with the officer's reasonable requests. But the cop's response was totally inexcusable, and sickening.

But it is still true that if the guy simply did what the cop asked, there's a 99.999% chance he'd be alive today. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for so many people. It's common for two people to share responsibility for an altercation. That's not "blaming the victim." Each side should accept whatever responsibility they have for their own actions.
 
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buckeyenole said:
Thankfully, it's not common at all. Much, much more common for criminals to shoot unarmed citizens.

Also, research shows minorities are NOT sentenced at higher rates than whites for the same crimes in similar circumstances.

Have no idea what you mean by "a police force incentivized to monetize the people they're charged with protecting."
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Lol really are you sure about that? Provide a link because I'm calling BS on you.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002

And yes, I'm SO GLAD criminals are murdering people at higher rates than cops are murdering people -- yes, feeling much safer now. Never mind many of our cops are a badge away from being no different than criminals themselves.

Did it ever strike anyone as odd that the advice we have to give our children when it comes to dealing with a thief and cop is literally the same "do what they say, just so you can walk away alive"? Seriously? As a society we're okay instilling the same fear in our kids of thieves as we are cops because we just don't know which cop or thief is crazy enough to pull the trigger? Is this not a problem that flashing lights and a badge are the only thing that distinguish thieves and cops?

As for the monetization of our citizenry, cops have quotas to meet. Police departments run on fines from citations. As someone (freefly, I think) posted in a thread last week, not one cent from citations/tickets/fines should go to police departments - they should all go to social programs intended on reducing crime rates - so the result of any stop on the part of a cop is an altruistic contribution to crime reduction.
 
Exactly my point. Thank you.


buckeyenole said:
Actually, what he said was exactly correct. You greatly reduce the chance of getting hurt by a cop by doing what the cop says. How can you possibly disagree with that? That is not "blaming the victim."

The cop is 100% to blame for shooting that guy. 100%. The guy should have complied with the officer's reasonable requests. But the cop's response was totally inexcusable, and sickening.

But it is still true that if the guy simply did what the cop asked, there's a 99.999% chance he'd be alive today. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for so many people. It's common for two people to share responsibility for an altercation. That's not "blaming the victim." Each side should accept whatever responsibility they have for their own actions.
Click to expand...
 
BacardiNole said:
. . .
As for the monetization of our citizenry, cops have quotas to meet. Police departments run on fines from citations. As someone (freefly, I think) posted in a thread last week, not one cent from citations/tickets/fines should go to police departments - they should all go to social programs intended on reducing crime rates - so the result of any stop on the part of a cop is an altruistic contribution to crime reduction.
Click to expand...

this sounds like a really good idea.
 
NoleInNC said:
Exactly my point. Thank you.
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The assumption in this line of thinking is that a citizen assumes the rightful punishment for not obeying the cops orders is the death penalty.

Perhaps some people think making a run for it, or not putting out a cig, or not getting out of their car, or not submitting their car to an unlawful search will reasonably not be met with the death penalty - and they weigh what it should be met with and determine that's a consequence they're willing to face, only to be surprised by a bullet to the head because it's the cop who's really the criminal and not the person getting stopped.

Not to mention civilians leery of cops planting baggies on them or in their car. There are a lot of reasons to get antsy around cops.

That was a bit rambling but hopefully my point about understanding what maybe the civilians mindset came across.
 
Bs. If you follow the cop's directions you have no reasonable thought that you will be shot or end up dead. As soon as you don't follow directions that chance goes up dramatically. It's simply not worth it to not follow, as much as you may disagree with those directions.

The guy wouldn't answer his questions and would let him open the door. Right there you are playing with fire. Why take the chance? Stupid on all accounts.
 
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BacardiNole said:
As for the monetization of our citizenry, cops have quotas to meet. Police departments run on fines from citations. As someone (freefly, I think) posted in a thread last week, not one cent from citations/tickets/fines should go to police departments - they should all go to social programs intended on reducing crime rates - so the result of any stop on the part of a cop is an altruistic contribution to crime reduction.
Click to expand...

Not quite what you're describing, but a new Florida law addressing law enforcement agencies that get a significant share of their revenue from traffic citations went into effect this month > Waldo Law.
 
NoleInNC said:
Bs. If you follow the cop's directions you have no reasonable thought that you will be shot or end up dead. As soon as you don't follow directions that chance goes up dramatically. It's simply not worth it to not follow, as much as you may disagree with those directions.

The guy wouldn't answer his questions and would let him open the door. Right there you are playing with fire. Why take the chance? Stupid on all accounts.
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The guy has the legal right to be silent and the legal right to refuse entry to his vehicle.

It would take a wild logical leap figure a reasonable reaction to either of those things would be to kill him.
The officer's actions just absolutely beyond the expectation of reasonable - though perhaps in this era of unwarranted murders by cops, we should know better - and under that sad sad pretense, I would then have to agree with you (and demand change to the system because that's an untenable flaw).
 
It is pathetic to see posters here somehow think the story here is that this is yet another example of how you should just comply with a cop. Not surprising, but pathetic none the less.

Guess what. It is ok to question authority figures and not just comply with their demands. Even cops. Unless maybe you are hoping for an America where all citizens bow down and lay over to anyone in a position of power or authority lest they fear for their lives? Might I suggest a one way ticket to North Korea?
 
noleclone2 said:
It is pathetic to see posters here somehow think the story here is that this is yet another example of how you should just comply with a cop. Not surprising, but pathetic none the less.

Guess what. It is ok to question authority figures and not just comply with their demands. Even cops. Unless maybe you are hoping for an America where all citizens bow down and lay over to anyone in a position of power or authority lest they fear for their lives? Might I suggest a one way ticket to North Korea?
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We each have to decide what is worth fighting for. As for me, I'm willing to be pissed off and take it up at a later time when I won't necessarily be shot for it. I tell my kids that too. Follow instructions even if the guy is an ass. If he does something wrong, we'll do our best to hold him accountable.
 
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Zeek99 said:
Good contrast to see a good cop and an "I have a badge, I have the authority to do whatever I want" cop. I wonder what happened afterwards. If the cop actually mailed a ticket. I would have requested his info to report him.
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Shouldn't the "good cop" have himself known how to de-escalate the "bad cop"?
Shouldn't the "good cop" have asked the guy in the car if he wanted to make a formal complaint against the "bad cop" on the spot, rather than shooing him away and telling him to bring it up in court?
Shouldn't the "good cop" have told the "bad cop", "the longer you're here, the worse things will get" instead of saying that to the driver?

The "good cop" was pretty much just a spineless guy who could neither protect the driver from the "bad cop" nor do what's right and needed.

Until "good cops" start policing the "bad cops", I have trouble saying they are really good cops.
 
More Kirk Less Spock said:
We each have to decide what is worth fighting for. As for me, I'm willing to be pissed off and take it up at a later time when I won't necessarily be shot for it. I tell my kids that too. Follow instructions even if the guy is an ass. If he does something wrong, we'll do our best to hold him accountable.
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I'd tell my kids the same things about dealing with armed robbers.

And without video, you'll never be able to hold any cop accountable. They are too cowardly to police their own.
 
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