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Game of Thrones - S6 E9 - Battle of the Bastards

Right. Yes the dragons can take out the wights. But fire does nothing to the The White Walkers. I just think it would be a cool (pardon the pun) ending to see everything covered in snow. All the heroes and villains gone. This is the Great War and people will lose. One last eff you from Martin.
Dragonglass kills white walkers. Isn't the secret to Valyarian steel that it was forged with dragonfire? Now it kills white walkers when regular steel can't. I don't think it's out of the question that dragonfire could also take down white walkers although they're immune to regular fire.

On the 2nd part, I think our heroes will save the day in the end. However, an overriding theme has been that humans have been distracted by their petty squabbles and have ignored the real threat to their existence. I could see GRRM coming up with a Planet of the Apes "Damn you all to Hell!" ending from the last survivor as winter arrives
 
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Sansa showed a new side in this episode:
- Callously writing off Rickon and using the lines of succession as her rationale. Which was correct but also shows that she was thinking about it.
- Lecturing Jon about him not thinking she has anything to contribute, then after he asks her thoughts on how to approach a battle where they're outnumbered, she neglects to mention that she arranged for an entire army to join them. Remember the "...Jon's Army, maybe you should get your own army" clip from the previews?
- A little smirk after feeding Ramsay to the hounds.

Could this be the start of a move of her own? By allowing the battle to go on, she sacrificed much of "Jon's Army" before her troops came in for mop up duty, so she (Littlefinger may differ) has the strongest force in the North right now. Did she also hope that Jon would fall in battle, making her the last known Stark around?
I could get behind that twist that she is the Stark black sheep and is murderously power hungry. I like it.
 
So I won't backtrack through the thread to find the culprit but whoever convinced me to watch the "Behind the Thrones" again owes me an hour and I bill out attorney time at $850.00 so get ready to pony up

You're the first person to mention 'After the Thrones' in the entire thread. Took 20 seconds to look up.
 
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I think Littlefinger will make Sansa marry him one way or the other.

Oh, I think this will happen. A lot of the plots are based on medieval history and there have been many marriages that took place for help with battles, alliances, etc throughout that period.
 
The book hints at Littlefinger having it on for Sansa even more than in the shows. Several times he remarks how she looks just like her mother, we get backstory on how much he loved her, over and over again. I figured it was coming earlier. The part about giving her to Ramsey really threw me off because of that.
 
We all do remember that the true heir of Eddard Stark is Bran right? Sansa is a woman Jon is illegitimate and Rickon is dead.
 
Also, if Bran is the new Three-eyed Raven, then his role has probably changed anyway, no?
 
Also, if Bran is the new Three-eyed Raven, then his role has probably changed anyway, no?
And he might well refuse leadership, given his physical limitations and mystical interests.

And, of course, Sansa played a (passive) role in Rickon becoming dead, leaving her as the eldest able-bodied and known-to-be-alive full-blood Stark.
 
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So I won't backtrack through the thread to find the culprit but whoever convinced me to watch the "Behind the Thrones" again owes me an hour and I bill out attorney time at $850.00 so get ready to pony up. That %*%* was awful yet again. They need to back up the money truck to Chris Hardwick because as much as I love Talking Dead...that Behind the Thrones is the biggest waste of time ever. Three incredibly uncharasmatic hosts neither of which are talented enough to be on a local city cable access show talking about local farm festivals let alone thrown up after the biggest show on tv and a worldwide phenomenon to boot. Even if they were giving out good info (they didn't) and had interesting guests (they don't) it would be unwatchable.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment... I for the life of me have no clue WHERE HBO found these twats of all the people they could have chosen from... Off the top of my head I can name a number of folk who have Youtube channels that would blow these 2 out of the water by themselves. I only watched the 1st one but turned it off after about 20 minutes once I realized this was a sham.
 
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You're the first person to mention 'After the Thrones' in the entire thread. Took 20 seconds to look up.

Then it must have been on the old thread or maybe I saw it on the Fark comments. Either way I saw it once and hated it. Got lured back and hated it even more.
 
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Sansa showed a new side in this episode:
- Callously writing off Rickon and using the lines of succession as her rationale. Which was correct but also shows that she was thinking about it.
- Lecturing Jon about him not thinking she has anything to contribute, then after he asks her thoughts on how to approach a battle where they're outnumbered, she neglects to mention that she arranged for an entire army to join them. Remember the "...Jon's Army, maybe you should get your own army" clip from the previews?
- A little smirk after feeding Ramsay to the hounds.

Could this be the start of a move of her own? By allowing the battle to go on, she sacrificed much of "Jon's Army" before her troops came in for mop up duty, so she (Littlefinger may differ) has the strongest force in the North right now. Did she also hope that Jon would fall in battle, making her the last known Stark around?

I could see Sansa doing that (purposefully screwing Jon and his army) because she's never had affection for him. And she's been played a lot and would be looking to be the playER.
 
Dragonglass kills white walkers. Isn't the secret to Valyarian steel that it was forged with dragonfire? Now it kills white walkers when regular steel can't. I don't think it's out of the question that dragonfire could also take down white walkers although they're immune to regular fire.

On the 2nd part, I think our heroes will save the day in the end. However, an overriding theme has been that humans have been distracted by their petty squabbles and have ignored the real threat to their existence. I could see GRRM coming up with a Planet of the Apes "Damn you all to Hell!" ending from the last survivor as winter arrives

Valyrian steel was made in the Valyrian Freehold BEFORE Westeros was conquered by the Targs and all knowledge of how to create it was lost. The ability to reforge it still exists (although rare, one character said only three people in the world knew how) but it's impossible at the moment to create new Valyrian Steel. As to how it was made, that secret was lost but it's hinted/rumoured to combine dragon fire with slave blood sacrifice.

But dragonglass is naturally occurring and very common. It's referenced repeatedly in the books that it's just ordinary obsidian not some special kind or blessed by the Children or something. Now the Children did give some obsidian weapons to the Nightswatch but that's because they apparently created the Whitewalkers to be resistant to ordinary steel (the weapons of the humans) but not obsidian swords, daggers, spears and arrows that the Children used.
 
Would Sansa have priority over Jon for ruling the North as she's full Stark or would Jon being he's half, but a male?
 
Here's some quotes on obsidian/"dragonglass" from the books.

“Take a lesson, Bran. The man who trusts in spells is dueling with a glass sword. As the children did. Here, let me show you something.” He stood abruptly, crossed the room, and returned with a green jar in his good hand. “Have a look at these,” he said as he pulled the stopper and shook out a handful of shiny black arrowheads.

Bran picked one up. “It’s made of glass.” Curious, Rickon drifted closer to peer over the table.

“Dragonglass,” Osha named it as she sat down beside Luwin, bandagings in hand.

“Obsidian,” Maester Luwin insisted, holding out his wounded arm. “Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian.”

“And still do.” Osha placed soft pads over the bites on the maester’s forearm and bound them tight with long strips of linen.”

And here's a little bit about Ghost and Jon Snow finding a ton of obsidian weapons.

“A quarter way around the Fist he chased the wolf before he lost him again. Finally he stopped to catch his breath amidst the scrub, thorns, and tumbled rocks at the base of the hill. Beyond the torchlight, the dark pressed close.

A soft scrabbling noise made him turn. Jon moved toward the sound, stepping carefully among boulders and thornbushes. Behind a fallen tree, he came on Ghost again. The direwolf was digging furiously, kicking up dirt.
“What have you found?” Jon lowered the torch, revealing a rounded mound of soft earth. A grave, he thought. But whose?

He knelt, jammed the torch into the ground beside him. The soil was loose, sandy. Jon pulled it out by the fistful. There were no stones, no roots. Whatever was here had been put here recently. Two feet down, his fingers touched cloth. He had been expecting a corpse, fearing a corpse, but this was something else. He pushed against the fabric and felt small, hard shapes beneath, unyielding. There was no smell, no sign of graveworms. Ghost backed off and sat on his haunches, watching.

Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal.

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years?"
 
Would Sansa have priority over Jon for ruling the North as she's full Stark or would Jon being he's half, but a male?

Sansa would; Jon is not a Stark, he hasn't been legitimated as a Stark, hence Jon Snow. Ramsey was Ramsey Snow until his father legitimated him as Ramsey Bolton. Until Jon is legitimated and can take/use the Stark name, he has no actual claim to Winterfell. Most are following because he is well-liked, a natural leader, and they feel Ned would have legitimated him, but it was Catelyn's choice to not allow.
 
Would Sansa have priority over Jon for ruling the North as she's full Stark or would Jon being he's half, but a male?

The rules of succession are interesting as just like in the real world they differ quite a bit.

In Dorne and in parts of Esteros, it's literally whoever is oldest and most directly in line so women can become kings.

For the North it's male children first, then female children and then after that next male relative.

And the Targs have their own succession rights it's male children first, male relatives (brothers) next and women only if the male lines have all failed.

So now I'll apply that to the actual characters in the spoiler box below

So if it is ever revealed that Jon is the son of Rhaeghar and Ned's sister, then Jon Snow would only be third on the list of succession for Winterfell behind Bran and Sansa in that order. BUT, he would be first in line for the Targ throne above Dany and Gendry (as a bastard but true son of Robert Baratheon and the Baratheons were an acknowledged bastard line of Targs from the past just like the Blackfyres were Unacknowledged bastards) in that order.

Now if this theory is not true (and I strongly think it is) and Jon is just a bastard son of Ned's, he would be behind Bran as a true son but ahead of Sansa in northern rules of succession. But that's assuming the northern lords accept his "adoption" and acknowledgment so in real cases where this occurred there's frequently a civil war where some houses side with the bastard and some side with the girl.
 
Sansa would; Jon is not a Stark, he hasn't been legitimated as a Stark, hence Jon Snow. Ramsey was Ramsey Snow until his father legitimated him as Ramsey Bolton. Until Jon is legitimated and can take/use the Stark name, he has no actual claim to Winterfell. Most are following because he is well-liked, a natural leader, and they feel Ned would have legitimated him, but it was Catelyn's choice to not allow.

Not entirely true, see my spoiler box if you're curious.
 
Would Sansa have priority over Jon for ruling the North as she's full Stark or would Jon being he's half, but a male?

John has no rights to lands or titles (except being Lord Commander because the watch does not discriminate) as a Snow.
 
Unless of course R+L=J and since Targs can take 2 wives its completely possible L and R married.
 
Not entirely true, see my spoiler box if you're curious.

That's basically what I said, without diving into other possibilities from theories and rumors that are not confirmed yet. Jon has never been acknowledged as Ned's son, so, he can't claim anything. If other Lords want to recognize him and follow him, he could take it, but he still technically has no claim at this point. Now, once R+L=J is confirmed (because I think we all know it's coming), we can revisit,
 
That's basically what I said, without diving into other possibilities from theories and rumors that are not confirmed yet. Jon has never been acknowledged as Ned's son, so, he can't claim anything. If other Lords want to recognize him and follow him, he could take it, but he still technically has no claim at this point. Now, once R+L=J is confirmed (because I think we all know it's coming), we can revisit,

I would assume that 99% of the northern lords would choose to acknowledge Jon Snow as solid war leader now over Sansa and her potential marriage to Littlefinger. There might be some who would hold out for Sansa's legitimacy but probably not too many. I think Littlefinger will know that and move accordingly.

Of course Bran trumps them both in Stark Successsion so if he shows up as a human again in the North he could claim it.
 
I would assume that 99% of the northern lords would choose to acknowledge Jon Snow as solid war leader now over Sansa and her potential marriage to Littlefinger. There might be some who would hold out for Sansa's legitimacy but probably not too many. I think Littlefinger will know that and move accordingly.

Of course Bran trumps them both in Stark Successsion so if he shows up as a human again in the North he could claim it.

Correct, the original question was just who has priority, meaning legit claim. And that is the answer I gave. What is the latest on what the North knows about Bran? Do they think he is just missing at this point? I don't recall them bringing him up with certainty.
 
Correct, the original question was just who has priority, meaning legit claim. And that is the answer I gave. What is the latest on what the North knows about Bran? Do they think he is just missing at this point? I don't recall them bringing him up with certainty.

They think he's dead because Theon burned the two other boys. Although with Rickon showing up, they may be suspicious.
 
Theon already had the discussion with Sansa that he didn't burn her brothers.

I already listed the last folks south of the wall that saw Bran. Haven't heard Bran's name mentioned by anyone south of the wall in a long time.
 
Theon already had the discussion with Sansa that he didn't burn her brothers.

I already listed the last folks south of the wall that saw Bran. Haven't heard Bran's name mentioned by anyone south of the wall in a long time.

That's right, I forgot about that discussion on the show. Which of course never happened in the books.
 
Saw something cool about Ramsay's precise battle planning. The flayed men Xs that were set out on the battle field were used as distance markers for him when shooting the arrows during his "game" and the first part of his plan after Jon charged. As much as we hated him, damn, he was a great villain and character... and a master planner of battles.

Here's a link to the article that referenced it:

http://uproxx.com/tv/7-details-game-of-thrones-the-door/8/
 
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One thing I am curious on is with the dragonglass,valyrian steel. If the way of making the steel is lost but still a handful of people who know how to forge it why wouldn't Dany locate them and use her dragons to make more? If it requires dragonfire and slaves blood she has both. Possibly a scenario comes up where she has to go against her beliefs on freeing all the slaves and sacrifice some for the greater good to make the weapons?
 
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I am thinking that the way the White Walkers etc are handled is going to be less complicated than trying to organize a mass resurgence of valyrian steel weaponry. Logistics in the GoT universe are almost impossible it seems. Getting things together, finding those that can forge, building the weapons, seems too difficult, IMHO.
 
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Has anyone had the thought that the Iron Throne is conveniently made of hundreds of swords and that Dany, may have a dragon blast it with fire, somehow forging those into swords that could be used as weapons against the White Walkers? I know it's totally unrealistic, but in a story where everything is there for a reason down the road, that's always been something that has been in the back of my mind.
 
We are all assuming they will defeat the White Walkers LOL

Well...sheeeeeeyit. It is going to be beyond depressing if the evil forces, which have hardly been on screen up to this point, just sweep down south of the wall and kill everyone. That would make GRRM one of the biggest assholes ever in entertainment. I don't think that Joseph Goebbels would even do that. Ok, he probably would.
 
Has anyone had the thought that the Iron Throne is conveniently made of hundreds of swords and that Dany, may have a dragon blast it with fire, somehow forging those into swords that could be used as weapons against the White Walkers? I know it's totally unrealistic, but in a story where everything is there for a reason down the road, that's always been something that has been in the back of my mind.
That is pretty interesting. GRRM does seem to like to hide things in plain view where he can get away with it. That would be pretty interesting indeed.
 
I am thinking that the way the White Walkers etc are handled is going to be less complicated than trying to organize a mass resurgence of valyrian steel weaponry. Logistics in the GoT universe are almost impossible it seems. Getting things together, finding those that can forge, building the weapons, seems too difficult, IMHO.

Another thing to consider is that a big quest to relearn how to create magical weapons to kill the "ultimate baddies" would be too much of a ripoff of the original Dragonlance trilogy. I would hope that GRRM would be wise enough to avoid ripping off a relatively well known old property.
 
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