Jenn Sterger rips ESPN for job interview that ended in strip club

[Nole Lou]

If a person is walking the streets in flashy clothes alone at 3am and they are robbed and roughed up, who is at fault? Certainly the person that robbed and hurt them but I would contend the person walking alone at 3am in flashy clothes created the crime of opportunity and advanced the conditions of the event and is partially at fault.

It's two separate issues. By choosing her path to success, Sterger absolutely increased the likelihood and frequency of dealing with creeps and negative situations like this. I don't think there is anything wrong with being clear headed about how your behavior might increase your exposure to inappropriate encounters. But that still doesn't excuse the behavior...all that did was increase the chance that Sterger was the one on the receiving end.

Unlike some, I still think it is reasonable to explain to a woman that getting absolutely plastered and going upstairs at a frat house puts you in danger of being the victim of a crime, just like carrying thousands in cash or leaving your keys in your car does. You didn't cause the crime to happen, but sometimes you can avoid being the one it happens to.

However, that neither justifies what happens, nor causes it, nor mitigates it. Virtually every crime could have been prevented had the victim done something else. It isn't one or the other...in all other aspects of crime/conflict, we're comfortable vigorously going after the perpetrators AND giving out simple steps to protect yourself. But this issue is so politically charged, it's now "rape-enabling" to give simple guidance on how to protect yourself.

Nobody has a problem telling 85-year olds that they should never give their credit card numbers to telemarketing scammers. Nobody considers that "letting the scammers off the hook."

It's not one or the other.

 

[seminole97]

shame on others for not taking the time to be aware how what they're about to say or do might be taken those around them[/quote]

Sorry, that ship has sailed. In 2017 you can’t even imagine what could be said that won’t offend somebody, somewhere.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Once you start hiring people outside of your close knit group of friends then some of the good old boy ways of doing things need to go away. Discuss business at work or over working lunches. Don't do it at strip clubs.

If you want to continue going out to strip clubs with your "friends" after work that's fine, but keep those as personal things, not work related in any manner.

Agree.

Not sure how this isn't common sense. My cofounder and I are good buddies from back in the day, our antics are many and occasionally still continue. Never do we discuss our personal lives or hobbies at work in front of our employees in a way that would exclude them from being equal participants in the conversation. Frankly, I don't want my employees knowing too much about my personal life and hobbies, lest they lose respect for me or see me in a light less than that of someone they're entrusting their career to.

We are in a position of leadership, leaders lead, not exclude. The folks who indulge in the "good old boy" behavior aren't leaders.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

shame on others for not taking the time to be aware how what they're about to say or do might be taken those around them

Sorry, that ship has sailed. In 2017 you can’t even imagine what could be said that won’t offend somebody, somewhere.

Oh come on what a cop out! It's not that hard not to offend folks.
Like seriously, this is just a cowardly way of thinking and refusing to self-analyze and relating to others.

If you can't go to work without offending women, making inappropriate sexual jokes or references, or groping someone, ... you ought not have a job.

 

[Banditking]

Agree.

Not sure how this isn't common sense. My cofounder and I are good buddies from back in the day, our antics are many and occasionally still continue. Never do we discuss our personal lives or hobbies at work in front of our employees in a way that would exclude them from being equal participants in the conversation. Frankly, I don't want my employees knowing too much about my personal life and hobbies, lest they lose respect for me or see me in a light less than that of someone they're entrusting their career to.

We are in a position of leadership, leaders lead, not exclude. The folks who indulge in the "good old boy" behavior aren't leaders.

I agree it's common sense. It's why I started the extension to meeting as a bar. But if you have your work friends and you guys do things even seemingly innocuously it can exclude. For example if you happen to go to the same church, or play golf, of like to watch football games,.., basically anything social that strengthens or furthers a personal relationship with someone within the power structure of a work situation can unfairly bias or exclude. That was the whole point to the feminist movement with respect to things like country club memberships.

This by the way is one reason why work romances between someone in power and someone not or even people that are equals but in different departments can be a problem. The personal relationship is perceived to affect business decisions. But this is also true in any other work type relationship.

 

[Banditking]

Oh come on what a cop out! It's not that hard not to offend folks.
Like seriously, this is just a cowardly way of thinking and refusing to self-analyze and relating to others.

If you can't go to work without offending women, making inappropriate sexual jokes or references, or groping someone, ... you ought not have a job.

I apparently "offended" a woman (described earlier). She claimed I looked at her breasts and was hitting on her. I did neither. Didn't even occur to me. I barely interacted with her. What was her motivation? I was good looking. She wanted her friends to think a good looking guy was sexually interested in her. Basically, the context was she was bragging.

Again, 99 percent of the time you're right. And I wholeheartedly agree. One should be able to behave in a professional manner toward anyone from any background. But personality disorders do exist. And you can't assume every accusation or story is truth. Also, people are very willing to use race and sex for power. People in power are particularly vulnerable to this. I've observed entire careers basically that amount to the individual saying and arguing "that's racist." That doesn't diminish the damage or sexism or racism. But one can't just tacitly accept such claims out of hand.

I'm arguing due process, I suppose. The Dershowitz argument. Was very relevant in the winston mess. It's also relevant here. And when we paint an issue as a male problem or a white problem... based on generalized power dynamics, to me, that's dangerous because it foments abuse. Basically creates another weapon untalented people can use to make money.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

And you can't assume every accusation or story is truth. Also, people are very willing to use race and sex for power. People in power are particularly vulnerable to this. I've observed entire careers basically that amount to the individual saying and arguing "that's racist." That doesn't diminish the damage or sexism or racism. But one can't just tacitly accept such claims out of hand.

Agree, 100% of accusations won't be true.

But that doesn't mean women shouldn't be encouraged and enabled to come forward with complaints of sexual harassment or assault. Once they do those claims should be investigated seriously and confidentially.

Too many companies, incl tech companies, have employees who've racked up 5-10 complaints of harassment but aside from a meek 'talking to' for the purpose of paperwork, no serious attempt at correcting or punishing their behavior is made.

Folks treat it like a formality rather than what it is, a toxic undercurrent that consumes their organization. ESPN Foxnews and Uber have all seen massive scandals because they were too dismissive of complaints made by female employees. I hope #metoo and the discussions of the last few weeks gives more confidence to step forward and call out their harassers/assaulters.

 

[Banditking]

Agree, 100% of accusations won't be true.

But that doesn't mean women shouldn't be encouraged and enabled to come forward with complaints of sexual harassment or assault. Once they do those claims should be investigated seriously and confidentially.

Too many companies, incl tech companies, have employees who've racked up 5-10 complaints of harassment but aside from a meek 'talking to' for the purpose of paperwork, no serious attempt at correcting or punishing their behavior is made.

Folks treat it like a formality rather than what it is, a toxic undercurrent that consumes their organization. ESPN Foxnews and Uber have all seen massive scandals because they were too dismissive of complaints made by female employees. I hope #metoo and the discussions of the last few weeks gives more confidence to step forward and call out their harassers/assaulters.

Agree.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

One difficulty I've seen quite a few times is female employees who make complaints but then follow up with "But I don't want to get anyone fired and also leave my name out of it." It's often a tough situation for employers.

 

[seminole97]

Oh come on what a cop out! It's not that hard not to offend folks.

It most certainly is when what matters is their subjective interpretation and not what you meant.

Like seriously, this is just a cowardly way of thinking and refusing to self-analyze and relating to others.

I’m offended you called me a coward. It’s time to put a stop to your insensitive, cyber-bullying.

 

[surfnole]

How is this turning into a male witch hunt?!

There are a lot of guys out there who...
- knowingly say or do things that make women uncomfortable.
- are capable of knowing their actions make women uncomfortable but don't spend the time to care.
- know the guys doing this but aren't saying anything.

Some of guys are now, rightfully, being put on blast.

I more than welcome you to step forward and complain about being sexually harassed if it bothers you, but if it doesn't that's no reason to say it shouldn't bother a woman who was subjected to the same or worse.

I'd also bet if you stepped forward, your complaints would be taken much more seriously (and be much more tarnishing to the women you accused) than a woman in the same position stepping forward.

Any perceived symmetries are anecdotal and grounded in denial and rather than fact. This false vail of naivete needs to stop.

There are a lot of guys out there who say and do things to intimidate other guys and make them uncomfortable. In fact, it is standard process in competition.

If a man stepped forward and complained that he was sexually harassed everybody would laugh at him, unless it was from another man. Can't recall the movie with Demi Moore and Michael Douglas.

I remember one job I had, when I was in my early 30s, and a lady would drop her notepad on the floor and ask me to bend over and pick it up. I thought it was funny and ignored it. I didn't report to her.Could that qualify as harassment? Yes.

This is not to discredit anything that has gone on with Weinstein or Sterger etc. When you are with somebody that can make or break your career, there is a lot of pressure to go along.

 

[funksouljon]

It most certainly is when what matters is their subjective interpretation and not what you meant.

I must agree here. While some topics, subjects, statements should be considered obviously offensive, there is a HUGE portion of the population who is looking to be offended by seemingly innocent events or statements.

 

[surfnole]

There is no solution.

You can't beat biology. Deep down, no matter how much we try to suppress it, we're animals. We want to dominate vs other animals, and we want to maximize our own chances for success (in whatever context you take that).

"People" in the general sense:
Are always going to hurt and kill other people
Are always going to try and dominate other groups of people
Are always going to take what they want.
Are always going to use violence, intimidation, etc.

The kind of evolution that is needed to drop all of those instincts is going to take many more thousands of years to finally fall out of our DNA. I figure humans have been around for a few million years, and we've only been out of the caves for a few thousand. How many more years before we all actually want to work together, look out for each other, treat everyone fairly, etc.? It's not going to happen while any one of us is alive, nor our kids, nor their kids.

So, the only option is to make the punishment side so severe that it counters all the instincts. That works great for anything for which there's evidence used to convict. For any "he said/she said" crimes, it's going to continue to be hard to get the evidence to convict people. So, I guess we'll continue to choose who to believe and who to dismiss. Alleged crimes will continue to come out decades after they happen, and nothing but public shaming will end up happening in most of those cases.

Absolutely. Lose the power grid for three weeks in the US and we would be back to tribal gangs of warlords like Afghanistan. Feminism would never exist in that environment.

 

[surfnole]

Interesting choice of words, "someone chose to be offended", letting the person who chose to offend off the hook scott free with no accountability?

Somehow so many people put it on the woman, "hey why are you being so uptight", "hey, i thought you were cool with that type of talk, you never said anything before," -- not realizing all the while it's the man's behavior that's had them on edge the whole time.

I'm not a woman so I can't speak for them, but as a minority who's heard his share of racial epithets and low brow simpleton racial jokes trust me, I've had to grit my teeth and go along with it because the idiots making those asinine comments were cutting my check and already being on the outside of the 'good old boys club', calling them on their bs would further hamper my career. It's been more than just a nuisance in my life and I can't imagine who it'd feel to hear those comments while someone leers at my breasts or grabs my ass. I consider myself lucky not to have to deal with that when all im trying to do is get paid and go home.

The O'Reilly comment can be addressed in the thread dedicated to his antics.

Scot Free???? Well now there's a racist term. As somebody from Scottish descent, I take offense at that remark ;^)

Well apparently, upon further reading, Scot free does not apply to Scots and goes back much further.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

It most certainly is when what matters is their subjective interpretation and not what you meant.



I’m offended you called me a coward. It’s time to put a stop to your insensitive, cyber-bullying.

If you were offended, that's totally fine.
I meant it as a pointed criticism and you can hide behind whatever fake tears you want, it only affirms my comment.

Your using it as an aimless distraction from the subject at hand says more than enough about your motives and dismissal of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and women in general.

 

[seminole97]

If you were offended, that's totally fine.

Not in the workplace.

I meant it as a pointed criticism and you can hide behind whatever fake tears you want, it only affirms my comment.

I suggest doubling down when HR asks you about it. Good strategy.
Actually, it's terrible. But I suggest you try it anyway and see who has their point affirmed.

Your using it as an aimless distraction from the subject at hand says more than enough about your motives and dismissal of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and women in general.

And now you're really off the deep end... I've never dismissed any of those things and my only 'motive' is to not got caught up in the mind games of others.

I've worked in professional settings for the last 18 years that were almost exclusively female because of the field (child welfare and medical). There were years where I was the only dude among 50 women (I think at peak in that place there were three guys at once), and in tighter ships of just a dozen or so, again as the only male. I've never harassed anyone, or been accused of same. But, if you can imagine, I've been the butt of jokes in that situation as the lone male. I was glad they were comfortable enough with me to joke, but I've always felt it was safer to not reciprocate because it would only take 1 of the 50 to take something the wrong way and cause me plenty of grief.

Incidentally, in the larger setting there was a female nursing supervisor (married) who was accused of uncomfortably hugging other staff and making sexually harassing remarks ("If I was a lesbian, I'd want you!"). I never witnessed any of it, but she was jettisoned.

 

[LesClaypool]

I know I posted about this earlier in the thread, but now that it's gone 4 pages I feel compelled to point out again...can you IMAGINE how many people Angry Bovine would've banned in this thread?!

 

[Banditking]

Scot Free???? Well now there's a racist term. As somebody from Scottish descent, I take offense at that remark ;^)

Well apparently, upon further reading, Scot free does not apply to Scots and goes back much further.

That doesn't matter (the etymology). It sounds like an ethnic slur. If you feel it is, it is.

I'm sensitive to these issues. I exist in a world in which race and sex are frequently and openly used to gain political power and career advancement (academia). I understand the game.

As an example. When I was a graduate student, a fellow graduate, a young lesbian woman walked around writing down what she heard people discussing in the hallways of the department, the mail room, etc... I was engaged in a discussion with a gentleman from the mountains of Tennessee. I'm from Miami. He stated something to the effect of, "I wouldn't want to live in Miami. It's like a foreign country down there." This, along with statements from other conversations amongst other people was posted to the department listserv as an example of a series of statements that were, from this one career setting woman's view, casually grievously offensive to minorities. As a result of this graduate student's spying and spin of what people said (nothing was particularly offensive, by the way), an "emergency" departmental meeting was held. This graduate student was put in charge of a new diversity committee, which she put on her cv. It advanced her career.

I'll note, what the Tennessee guy said, in context of his rural town, was absolutely true. And, I wasn't offended nor do I think the average citizen from Miami (we tend to view ourselves as distinct from the rest of the us) would be.

What ends up happening is everyone accepts the prog lib vernacular and viewpoint as default. It becomes an echo chamber. It's safer to assume everyone is a progressive liberal. It's ok to rip republicans and conservatives and white males, etc. but you are no longer getting people's real opinions or positions. This is why I think polling is sometimes quite inaccurate. My brother runs around ripping conservatives all the time and making prog lib obs usually to apparent group acceptance and head nodding. He's a radical righty pretty much. No one in his professional environment knows. This is what happens when you have thought police running around claiming offense at anything that deviates from their world view.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I've always felt it was safer to not reciprocate because it would only take 1 of the 50 to take something the wrong way and cause me plenty of grief

Exactly. You did the right thing and it wasn't that hard.

All I'm advocating is that more people use the exact same common sense and respect you did.

As I said earlier, when in doubt don't say it, do it, or grab it. Not sure why so many folks have an issue with that - its work not a comedy club or the junior prom.

 

[West Duval Nole]

As I said earlier, when in doubt don't say it, do it, or grab it

And you should always doubt grabbing it. Just don't do it even if it is someone you are dating at least in the workplace. It may make someone witnessing it that doesn't know feel uncomfortable.

 

[seminole97]

 

[RangerNole]

If you were offended, that's totally fine.
I meant it as a pointed criticism and you can hide behind whatever fake tears you want, it only affirms my comment.

Your using it as an aimless distraction from the subject at hand says more than enough about your motives and dismissal of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and women in general.

So one person makes a claim and it is beyond a doubt real and true; because it fits your view. Another person makes a claim and they are hiding behind some fake tears; you can't hide behind some irrational whatever one group says is offensive and not provide that same courtesy to another group. This is really the crux of the issue; we provide permanent victim status to some groups, based on whatever certain supposed societal norms are. However if another group tries to claim the same status; well they are just whining. This is the most destructive issue in America today and it is called Identity Politics. You can't run a civil or socially responsible society when you pit one group against another or worse automatically accept a claim from one group without proof. Yet call out or dismiss another group based on uncontrollable traits.
This is why you as a poster and several with the same views drive me crazy; I don't care what the rules are; but I do need to know what the rules are, if you want me to follow whatever rules you set. Look no further than the female teacher doing some young HS dudes threads. Hot HS teacher has sex with HS dude; man how lucky is he, why would he talk and ruin it. Male teacher has sex with HS girl and he is a pedophile; it can't be both ways. Either it is wrong or not.

 

[bryanscho]

4 pages with a title referencing Jen Sterger and strip clubs and not one damn picture of anything related to that. Worst thread of the year.

 

[Finance85]

Oh come on what a cop out! It's not that hard not to offend folks.
Like seriously, this is just a cowardly way of thinking and refusing to self-analyze and relating to others.

If you can't go to work without offending women, making inappropriate sexual jokes or references, or groping someone, ... you ought not have a job.

That's not true. I know someone who was offended because she thought a guy she used to date sent a gift card to her daughter after the daughter had a baby. There are people who will not only get offended by innocent things, but will also twist innocent things into something nefarious.

 

[Banditking]

That's not true. I know someone who was offended because she thought a guy she used to date sent a gift card to her daughter after the daughter had a baby. There are people who will not only get offended by innocent things, but will also twist innocent things into something nefarious.

Exactly so. The desired default assumption here seems to be women are all rational actors and there are some men who will assault and harass them.

In the us, the incidence of borderline personality disorder is 2-6 percent. It's more highly represented in women.

Histrionic personality disorder is present in around 2 percent of the adult population.

Both of these are associated with gross distortions in perception of attributions related to self and others.

Basically, the current climate provides rocket fuel for people with this kind of problem to get validation and run scorched earth through unsuspecting men all over the us.

I'm not a big."men's rights" guy but, as a psychologist, these trends give me serious pause. Due process is really, really important. And, people are f'ing crazy and will claim all sorts of insanity.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

That's not true. I know someone who was offended because she thought a guy she used to date sent a gift card to her daughter after the daughter had a baby. There are people who will not only get offended by innocent things, but will also twist innocent things into something nefarious.

I don't really know how to argue against this anecdote since i don't know these people or any extenuating circumstances

People who give gift cards are the worst so i can't blame the lady really. Just give cash bro