I wasn’t, hence “even Spain”. Their lack of success has a lot to do with how quickly they abandoned the measures, and lack of social compliance.
Mayo Clinic cardiologist shoots down PSU myocarditis numbers
- Thread starter jbnoles4
- Start date
Coronavirus: What do the lockdowns mean in Europe? – DW – 04/15/2020
Countries across Europe have significantly curbed public life in order to halt the spread of the COVID-19 outbreak. DW breaks down what life in lockdown means and how long the measures are expected to last.
www.dw.com
Seems similar to what we are/were doing. Germany had much less restrictions than we did. South Korea didn't really lock down as much as Big Brother their people. Birx, the governor of Colorado, Texas, the UK all said their cases were overcounted. You kind of proved my point about the MSM, not sure why you think that is a counterpoint. The 2 most locked down states were NY and NJ, the 2 worst.
The European nations also opened more quickly, because their people wouldn't allow it to continue.
Last edited:
We can also look to more specific examples. All the NFL+s being confirmed as false. A total of 19 testing sites in Florida that had 100% + rates. People in Georgia that signed up for the test, but never took it all got + results back in the mail. I am sure these are all one offs.
Oh my.....do you even read the stuff you put out there. A single study (not peered reviewed) that demonstrates that health care workers in a health care setting using surgical masks reduced infections is not the same as the general public using cloth masks. And no part of that study dealt with social distancing aspect of mask wearing. That study just replicates 50 years of studies that demonstrates in a health care setting surgical mask are better than nothing, but not as good as n95 masks at reducing viral infection spread. The rest of them only dealt with reduction of virus coming through various masks, but say nothing about the viral load needed to infect, which is the achilles heel of all this "research."
As to your 1 million deaths.......BS.......no one knows what would have happened, except that we would be much closer to herd immunity. By shutting down the schools we stopped one of the best bulwarks against the spread as children rarely get sick and don't give off significant viral load (early research indicates adult to child spread is more likely than the opposite). It will be interesting to see now that schools are in session, how many new symptomatic cases we have going forward.
As to testing........would love to see some antibody testing results now. Isn't it important to see how many people have been infected at this stage in order to understand what the future might look like? But, no media coverage of antibody tests since the early ones found up to 22% having been infected in NYC, 6% in Miami, etc.
Picking and choosing the "science" one presents without a critical eye is a big part of the problem.
That was one article of hundreds I could have posted, and I’m sure you’d find a reason to wave away all of them because you’re starting with a conclusion and dismissing evidence to the contrary. Two people wearing cloth masks talking to each other at a normal distance reduce the chance of infection by over 80%, some studies put it closer to 95.
I seem to remember media reporting on the New York antibody testing, as that number looks familiar. Couldn’t agree more that should be part of the effort. I’m a bit concerned about the limited lifespan of the antibodies themselves and the impact of that on the effectiveness of herd immunity, but thanks to modern science it appears a vaccine isn’t too far off. My opinion is we should continue the relatively modest measures we have in place to limit the spread and subsequent fatalities until a vaccine is available.
The one million figure is counter factual, of course, but based on estimates. I find it to be kind of cynical for some to use numbers we actually experienced after the measures we took as if that’s what the numbers would be had we done nothing. Clearly, it would have cost many more lives. Disproportionately elderly, and/or immunocompromised lives, which are no less important than any other lives.
Again, you assume unanimity among researchers about the mask issue where there is a lot of disagreement. One of the by products of this environment is there is a lot of bad research getting published before the vetting process. That is why we constantly see papers being retracted as soon as the media publicizes them. But there is 50 years of good research that can guide us. This is a summary of the findings from the major meta-analysis of various mitigation strategies:
To date, there is no evidence from randomized trials regarding the effect of wearing face masks on the risk of acquiring infection from SARS-CoV-2. In the absence of this urgently needed data, this systematic review and meta-analysis provides evidence, with a low degree of certainty, that wearing face masks may strongly reduce the risk of acquiring......... The certainty of the results, according to the GRADE scale, was deemed to be moderate for distance and low for both face masks and eye protection.
Where you and I disagree violently is that I think that the viral spread was inevitable no matter what we did or didn't do. At best we could spread out the infections over a longer period of time, which if you remember was the what we were trying to do originally. You seem to think that we could permanently decrease the spread by these mitigation efforts. I assume you probably believe we will have a effective vaccine in 2 months too, which I doubt. By the way, that doubt is the majority viewpoint from those working in the vaccine industry. And of course, people are circumspect too, with less than half saying they are willing to take the vaccine immediately. Seems like the people understand the issue pretty well.
Last edited:
This peer reviewed study hasn’t been retracted: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspa.2020.0376
Beyond the scientific evidence, it’s just common sense. We know how it is spread, primarily through expelling by mouth, and masks help mitigate that. They don’t catch every droplet, but they catch almost all of them. The fewer droplets you inhale, the less likely you are to contract the virus. And, from what we know, it may also alter the severity of the virus if you do get it. The type of mask matters. But, like, the idea that they don’t do anything to slow spread just seems prima facie false to me. And the preponderance of data support that. Beyond that, even if you’re skeptical, they can’t cause it to spread more, can they? At worst it’s a pointless measure, not a deleterious one. But, that’s not the case.
Again read the study. It is theoretical, a model. Has no bearing in the real world and makes no assumption on how much virus is needed to infect. And yes, common sense dictates that wearing a mask will reduce the amount of virus emitted. But, what it doesn't touch is how much virus is needed to infect and how much other mitigation strategies change the outcome; like social spacing and hand washing. Again, no science out there that says that wearing cloth masks leads to fewer infections. I really don't have an issue with mask wearing, but do have an issue when people try to say that there is science behind it. So mask wearing, as of now, is just about hunches (common sense in your vernacular), and making people feel like they are doing something positive. The above discussion is about mask wearing in public, not mask wearing in health care settings. Even though we now know that it isn't a panacea in those settings either.
i understand and encourage the purpose of people wearing certified surgical masks especially if that person has reason to believe they are infected or they have been exposed to the infection and are taking extra safeguards, a mask-wearing quarantine if you will. the surgical masks are designed to limit a person sharing their germs - not to prevent them from being infected.
if people are going to wear a neck gaiter or some fashion cloth, that might help with a runny nose but it isn't going to do jack squat with a cough, sneeze, or inhaling germs.
if people are going to wear a neck gaiter or some fashion cloth, that might help with a runny nose but it isn't going to do jack squat with a cough, sneeze, or inhaling germs.
My querty drops every time I try to backspace. I am almost always working, which means I am almost always on Warchant via my phone. The screen keeps shifting and I have to keep scrolling to get back the the keyboard. I am sure this isn't a problem on an actual computer, but it is nightmarish on the phone.
Funny, I was coming to thank you for keeping things civil. This is how boards should function.
Waiting for someone to say that the Mayo Clinic is a "white supremacist group."
It’s all incoherent babble. I have never seen someone contradict themselves so much and not even realize they dd.
Thought you might like this article about the issues with PCR testing and how we are reporting up to 90% more positives than we should: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
Just more information.........
Unfortunately, kids in general don't typically social distance as they should. For example, this morning I took my daughter to a senior class "sunrise" gathering outside at a local park (but not organized by the school itself). Although almost all of the kids were wearing masks of some kind, pretty much none of them was social distancing. Instead, they were in clusters of varying numbers. When my daughter tried to social distance, others moved next to her. In the real world, that's how kids behave. College students, or at least the younger ones, are not really very different in this regard. Many of them think they are invincible, and they likely aren't thinking about older relatives and friends to whom they could transmit the virus if they become infected. To count on them to take the necessary precautions is just not realistic.
Half a million US kids diagnosed with Covid-19
Half a million US children have been diagnosed with Covid-19 | CNN
More than 500,000 US children have been diagnosed with Covid-19, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Children's Hospital Association.
In addition, there have been more than 37,000 Covid-19 cases on college and university campuses across America. Some, like the University of Tennessee, have experienced outbreaks at fraternities and sororities.
Unfortunately, kids in general don't typically social distance as they should. For example, this morning I took my daughter to a senior class "sunrise" gathering outside at a local park (but not organized by the school itself). Although almost all of the kids were wearing masks of some kind, pretty much none of them was social distancing. Instead, they were in clusters of varying numbers. When my daughter tried to social distance, others moved next to her. In the real world, that's how kids behave. College students, or at least the younger ones, are not really very different in this regard. Many of them think they are invincible, and they likely aren't thinking about older relatives and friends to whom they could transmit the virus if they become infected. To count on them to take the necessary precautions is just not realistic.
Half a million US kids diagnosed with Covid-19
Half a million US children have been diagnosed with Covid-19 | CNN
More than 500,000 US children have been diagnosed with Covid-19, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Children's Hospital Association.www.cnn.com
In addition, there have been more than 37,000 Covid-19 cases on college and university campuses across America. Some, like the University of Tennessee, have experienced outbreaks at fraternities and sororities.
Might want to read the NY Times article on PCR testing. Calls into doubt those numbers you rely on.
I don't think so. But I guess we can agree to disagree. Meanwhile, in Florida:
Coronavirus cases spike among school-age children in Florida, while state orders some counties to keep data hidden
By Lori Rozsa and Valerie Strauss
Meanwhile in Georgia, cases are at a two month low, this despite schools opening up in the last month.
bias articles behind a paywall are difficult to read.
a couple of points -
the fault in PCR testing is not just in the US but globally. Many European nations are delving back into it to find a uniform testing procedure due to the number of positives being returned where the virus is either dead or of insufficient quantity to be transmissible.
Most people in Florida are being tested at the testing sites, the testing sites did not begin testing kids until August 1st, it's hardly a surprise that a jump in cases occurs when a demographic that was rarely being tested is now more regularly being tested.
the 0-24 age demographic in 2020 is as healthy as it has ever been during the past five years experiencing a death rate lower for all causes than the 5-year average trend.
a couple of points -
the fault in PCR testing is not just in the US but globally. Many European nations are delving back into it to find a uniform testing procedure due to the number of positives being returned where the virus is either dead or of insufficient quantity to be transmissible.
Most people in Florida are being tested at the testing sites, the testing sites did not begin testing kids until August 1st, it's hardly a surprise that a jump in cases occurs when a demographic that was rarely being tested is now more regularly being tested.
the 0-24 age demographic in 2020 is as healthy as it has ever been during the past five years experiencing a death rate lower for all causes than the 5-year average trend.
So? Florida is a much larger state population-wise, with lots more people to get infected and then to spread the virus. Florida also has a lot of beaches and outdoor activity, not to mention many more out of state tourists than does Georgia. And apparently Georgia doesn't have the reporting issue that Florida appears to have. But, you have the right to deny it if you choose.
So? It’s good news. And we should all be grateful that Georgia hasn’t gone the other way since schools have opened.
which reporting issue is that? other than what the MSM likes to concoct when they attack states with republican governors, Florida has consistently been rated A and A+ in its COVID data-keeping. California, for example, has consistently been B rated but we rarely see that mentioned for some odd reason?
Last Friday, the start of Labor Day weekend, Illinois reported over 5500 cases, the highest total by far of any single day. The word in that they discovered 15000 lost tests and forgot to put them in the system. But the headline was, “Illinois smashes record for number of single day positives”. Not the lost tests or the sub 4% positive rate. No one cares about that stuff. And on the Friday before a big holiday weekend.
Florida just drilled and fired Quest for not meeting Florida law for COVID reporting requirements. Quest was late on reporting 75,000 test results, some dating back as far as April.
Still surprised at how low Florida is testing. Or at least reporting. Over 14000 today. That number should be at least double.
in what way? my daughter told me that the testing centers around FSU have been doubling up in a lot of cases taking both a rapid test and a PCR test. there are also the people being retested following a positive and quarantine 10 to 14 days earlier.
Florida tested at 14.3% today. The fluctuation on percentages is odd and in no way consistent.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/individual-states/florida
Disregard that. Florida has 16,914 tests reported yesterday for a 13.3% positive average. Today 15189 for 13.5%. Let's hope the testing picks up after the holiday.
