UCLA or anyone in the med. field

[SoddyNole]

Bad topic for a Monday but I could use some insight from someone in your field.

A neighbor from a few houses down committed suicide Sat night. The victim, Jim, was a great guy that everyone liked. Jim and his wife would always be the ones that would have people over on various holidays. They were always great with the kids and would greet your with a kind hello and small talk when passing by while out walking with the dog. If anyone needed help, Jim was always the first to be there. He was retired from the Coast Guard was in great shape for someone in their early 60's and looked like he could enter an Iron man competition. Jim was diagnosed with Alzheimer's a few years ago and apparently had been regressing fairly quickly. Not too long ago while backing his car out, he knocked over a neighbors light pole. They were good friends and even though Jim was very upset with himself everyone else was very understanding of his condition and assured him not to worry. Jim was very social and it was common that they would visit over a neighbor's house and Sat night was no different. They had spent a couple of hours visiting and having a couple of glasses of wine, nothing excessive. The details beyond this are a bit sketchy but apparently he got very angry for reasons unknown that evening and his his wife caught him with a gun in the bedroom while pulling the trigger which did not fire off on the first try. She wrestled the gun away and ran to the phone to call the neighbor over to help and to call 911. By the time she finished dialing and the neighbor came over the bedroom door was locked and they were talking to Jim trying to calm him down. This was all happening fairly quickly and before anyone else could help Jim jumped out of the 2nd story bedroom and shot himself in the back yard with another gun.

The question I have while I can understand having an illness like this can cause depression and one to consider ending it before it takes over. There weren't clear signs of depression from those close to him. His actions completely caught the family, friends and neighbors off guard. Is it possible that this disease can trigger such an extreme change so quickly? Or is the better explanation he was good at hiding his thoughts and intentions. Many years ago my grandfather died of Alzheimer's and even though his normal personality was very laid back, I do recall some days he would be furious for no reason and you could see the anger in his eyes. I don't remember hearing talk of potential suicide back then and was curious if you have heard of such events with other people that have suffered from this disease.

 

[DanC78]

Rough.

I’m interested to hear how Alzheimer’s can effect the psyche as well. I just learned this weekend that a person fairly close to me has been diagnosed.

 

[DanC78]

@FSU_UCLA

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I am truly sorry that this happened in your neighborhood, Soddy. Suicide just rips everything to shreds. I hope that everybody who knew Jim or has been impacted by his death has reached out and scheduled a therapy appointment just to talk through their responses and get some support. Jim’s wife needs to be talking to a professional now and for a long time into the future.

Suicide is not rare among people diagnosed with AD, and AD absolutely can cause impaired emotion regulation and impulse control. Personally, I’ve lost three grandparents to dementia, including two to AD, and I have witnessed firsthand, both personally and professionally, how a person can lose their ability to understand and manage their thoughts and emotions in seemingly a split second. Yet, in my experience, by the time we are seeing that behavioral change, the person suffering from the disease has been fighting an epic internal battle for his mind for years. AD is an insidious neurodegenerative disease, like CTE. The damage and disruption accumulated over years of small tangles and plaques building up between the brain cells and degrading the synapses that undermine every process. We all have to be watching ourselves and each other for subtle changes, and we can’t brush them off as “just getting older.” As with so many illnesses, early identification and intervention can be a literal lifesaver.

A reasonably good review of the research on suicidality in AD was published last year: http://www.eurekaselect.com/144092/article. All risk factor research on suicide is relatively weak, because suicide remains a low probability outcome, but base on this review, we need to be especially aware of the risk of suicide in people with AD if they are higher functioning and have a history of a previous attempt.

For a final (and, I know, unpopular) statement, the most powerful action that people can take to reduce the likelihood of somebody in their homes dying by suicide is to not have guns in their home, especially if an older man or a teenage boy lives in the home. The second most powerful action is to not have alcohol in the home.

 

[Bud Fox]

I am truly sorry that this happened in your neighborhood, Soddy. Suicide just rips everything to shreds. I hope that everybody who knew Jim or has been impacted by his death has reached out and scheduled a therapy appointment just to talk through their responses and get some support. Jim’s wife needs to be talking to a professional now and for a long time into the future.

Suicide is not rare among people diagnosed with AD, and AD absolutely can cause impaired emotion regulation and impulse control. Personally, I’ve lost three grandparents to dementia, including two to AD, and I have witnessed firsthand, both personally and professionally, how a person can lose their ability to understand and manage their thoughts and emotions in seemingly a split second. Yet, in my experience, by the time we are seeing that behavioral change, the person suffering from the disease has been fighting an epic internal battle for his mind for years. AD is an insidious neurodegenerative disease, like CTE. The damage and disruption accumulated over years of small tangles and plaques building up between the brain cells and degrading the synapses that undermine every process. We all have to be watching ourselves and each other for subtle changes, and we can’t brush them off as “just getting older.” As with so many illnesses, early identification and intervention can be a literal lifesaver.

A reasonably good review of the research on suicidality in AD was published last year: http://www.eurekaselect.com/144092/article. All risk factor research on suicide is relatively weak, because suicide remains a low probability outcome, but base on this review, we need to be especially aware of the risk of suicide in people with AD if they are higher functioning and have a history of a previous attempt.

For a final (and, I know, unpopular) statement, the most powerful action that people can take to reduce the likelihood of somebody in their homes dying by suicide is to not have guns in their home, especially if an older man or a teenage boy lives in the home. The second most powerful action is to not have alcohol in the home.

Thank you for your response UCLA, and while I have not always agreed with you, your presence and input on these boards has always been a source of intelligent and often thought provoking commentary, at least for me.

Good stuff.

 

[gcnole]

I am truly sorry that this happened in your neighborhood, Soddy. Suicide just rips everything to shreds. I hope that everybody who knew Jim or has been impacted by his death has reached out and scheduled a therapy appointment just to talk through their responses and get some support. Jim’s wife needs to be talking to a professional now and for a long time into the future.

Suicide is not rare among people diagnosed with AD, and AD absolutely can cause impaired emotion regulation and impulse control. Personally, I’ve lost three grandparents to dementia, including two to AD, and I have witnessed firsthand, both personally and professionally, how a person can lose their ability to understand and manage their thoughts and emotions in seemingly a split second. Yet, in my experience, by the time we are seeing that behavioral change, the person suffering from the disease has been fighting an epic internal battle for his mind for years. AD is an insidious neurodegenerative disease, like CTE. The damage and disruption accumulated over years of small tangles and plaques building up between the brain cells and degrading the synapses that undermine every process. We all have to be watching ourselves and each other for subtle changes, and we can’t brush them off as “just getting older.” As with so many illnesses, early identification and intervention can be a literal lifesaver.

A reasonably good review of the research on suicidality in AD was published last year: http://www.eurekaselect.com/144092/article. All risk factor research on suicide is relatively weak, because suicide remains a low probability outcome, but base on this review, we need to be especially aware of the risk of suicide in people with AD if they are higher functioning and have a history of a previous attempt.

For a final (and, I know, unpopular) statement, the most powerful action that people can take to reduce the likelihood of somebody in their homes dying by suicide is to not have guns in their home, especially if an older man or a teenage boy lives in the home. The second most powerful action is to not have alcohol in the home.

As a therapist who works in a Baker Act/ Marchman Act receiving facility ,I will piggy back off of UCLA’s last statement. One of the worse mixes is impulsivity, alcohol and/or drugs and firearms. If somebody is suffering from any kind of mental health issues, Alzheimer’s, TBI or anything along those lines, having a firearm in the home is a recipe for disaster.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Rough.

I’m interested to hear how Alzheimer’s can effect the psyche as well. I just learned this weekend that a person fairly close to me has been diagnosed.

When my father was in the early/early mid stages, my mother found him one day sitting in his chair crying. When she asked what was the matter, he told her he knew something was wrong but he couldn't figure it out. This was a man with two doctorate degrees who understood he was failing intellectually but couldn't grasp why or how to stop it.
That was one of the worst experiences for everyone.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

When my father was in the early/early mid stages, my mother found him one day sitting in his chair crying. When she asked what was the matter, he told her he knew something was wrong but he couldn't figure it out. This was a man with two doctorate degrees who understood he was falling intellectually but couldn't grasp why or how to stop it.
That was one of the worst experiences for everyone.

That’s always been the saddest and hardest part of the experience for me. The early stages when the person knows they are sick but will still also have the moments/days of lucidity and will be so mournful and angry about the lack of anything to be done. I’ve heard it called the “swiss cheesing” effect, and it differentiates AD from other types of dementia. I recall vividly that both my grandmothers became snippier early on in the disease as they struggled to hide and ignore the bad moments.

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

For a final (and, I know, unpopular) statement, the most powerful action that people can take to reduce the likelihood of somebody in their homes dying by suicide is to not have guns in their home, especially if an older man or a teenage boy lives in the home.

This is exactly right. I hear parents tell me all the time "our child knows how to respect guns" and "we taught him from an early age about guns"

Well that's completely irrelevant. Did you teach your child from a young age that life sucks sometimes? Did you teach your child that breaking up with a girlfriend is not the huge catastrophe that he will think it is? Did you teach your child to develop a completely neutral objective way to self-diagnose depression so that it won't affect his judgment and send him into a tailspin?

I don't care how much training teens have about guns or how much they "respect" the weapon, it's completely idiotic to give them access to weapons. If you keep guns in your home with an adolescent or teenager and there's not several surefire safeguards to keep them from getting access, you are an absolute fool.

BTW, one common refrain I hear alot is that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. That's not true. Teens are extremely impulsive and guns allow the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

 

[DFSNOLE]

That’s always been the saddest and hardest part of the experience for me. The early stages when the person knows they are sick but will still also have the moments/days of lucidity and will be so mournful and angry about the lack of anything to be done. I’ve heard it called the “swiss cheesing” effect, and it differentiates AD from other types of dementia. I recall vividly that both my grandmothers became snippier early on in the disease as they struggled to hide and ignore the bad moments.

I don't know if you saw it in the thread from last week so I will again thank you for the information and other words of wisdom you passed along to me when my father was going through this. I did and do appreciate it.

 

[Finance85]

This is exactly right. I hear parents tell me all the time "our child knows how to respect guns" and "we taught him from an early age about guns"

Well that's completely irrelevant. Did you teach your child from a young age that life sucks sometimes? Did you teach your child that breaking up with a girlfriend is not the huge catastrophe that he will think it is? Did you teach your child to develop a completely neutral objective way to self-diagnose depression so that it won't affect his judgment and send him into a tailspin?

I don't care how much training teens have about guns or how much they "respect" the weapon, it's completely idiotic to give them access to weapons. If you keep guns in your home with an adolescent or teenager and there's not several surefire safeguards to keep them from getting access, you are an absolute fool.

BTW, one common refrain I hear alot is that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. That's not true. Teens are extremely impulsive and guns allow the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

It's true that guns are more lethal than other methods. It's not accurate to say other methods aren't tried more frequently than guns. Pills are used more often; they just aren't as lethal. Just putting the facts out there. The message shouldn't just be about securing guns.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/105/4/871

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

 

[FSU_UCLA]

It's true that guns are more lethal than other methods. It's not accurate to say other methods aren't tried more frequently than guns. Pills are used more often; they just aren't as lethal. Just putting the facts out there. The message shouldn't just be about securing guns.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/105/4/871

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Nobody sad that other methods aren't tried more frequently than guns. It is absolutely a fact that other methods are used more frequently and that supports my statements and Hopkins': the greater lethality of guns is exactly the reason we emphasize them. I have dozens of people on my caseload who have attempted to kill themselves multiple times with pills, knives, suffocation, etc. I have none who have attempted to kill themselves with guns, because those folks typically don't survive long enough to make it to therapy and to recover. Removing guns from homes will save lives. Period.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I don't know if you saw it in the thread from last week so I will again thank you for the information and other words of wisdom you passed along to me when my father was going through this. I did and do appreciate it.

Thank you for the kind words. I am glad that I was able to be of service to you back then; it's always an honor to have the opportunity to help.

 

[Manch.]

As most of you know, two years ago, my 16 year old son comitted suicide. He was seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist for some anger outbursts and no one saw the suicide coming. We think, but don't known for certain that the death of his grandparents and that he was possibly bullied at some points in his childhood, but we wI'll never know.

He took pills, alot of them, so it wasn't an accident. They were pills that we didn't know he had access to while he helped care for his grandfather, pills that my FIL had him stash away in case he needed extras on days when the pain was more severe.

The suicide had destroyed me to the point that I attempted suicide also. It destroyed my family and my wife of 27 years and 16 year old daughter won't communicate with me.

 

[billanole]

As most of you know, two years ago, my 16 year old son comitted suicide. He was seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist for some anger outbursts and no one saw the suicide coming. We think, but don't known for certain that the death of his grandparents and that he was possibly bullied at some points in his childhood, but we wI'll never know.

He took pills, alot of them, so it wasn't an accident. They were pills that we didn't know he had access to while he helped care for his grandfather, pills that my FIL had him stash away in case he needed extras on days when the pain was more severe.

The suicide had destroyed me to the point attempted suicide also. It destroyed my family and my wife of 27 years and 16 year old daughter won't communicate with me.

Dang Manch, one day at a time. Hang in there. There are brighter days ahead, albeit mixed with tough and likely dark times. I came close to suicide in my late teens and have lost multiple family members to Alz. (Mom is in that world), so this thread rings very strong to me.

 

[FreeFlyNole]

I think we are talking about three very separate issues, teen suicide and geriatric suicide I think the only thing tiring them together in this thread is the third issue which is the anti-gun theme.

What if the guy had just made the decision to go. Maybe if we had a better legal alternative he wouldn't have jumped out of the window and sprayed his brains all over the yard?

Death with dignity.

My little town of 9000 people had two high school suicides this year (neither gun deaths). It's tough to digest.

 

[GwinnettNole]

As most of you know, two years ago, my 16 year old son comitted suicide. He was seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist for some anger outbursts and no one saw the suicide coming. We think, but don't known for certain that the death of his grandparents and that he was possibly bullied at some points in his childhood, but we wI'll never know.

He took pills, alot of them, so it wasn't an accident. They were pills that we didn't know he had access to while he helped care for his grandfather, pills that my FIL had him stash away in case he needed extras on days when the pain was more severe.

The suicide had destroyed me to the point that I attempted suicide also. It destroyed my family and my wife of 27 years and 16 year old daughter won't communicate with me.

Sorry to hear what you have gone through Manch. I knew that your son committed suicide but was always leery to ask “how are you doing”, so I figured just seeing you in threads was a good sign.

Is your wife and daughter not speaking with you because you tried committing suicide or other?

Life is tough, we Americans seem to make it tougher. At church on Sunday the pastor said we have problems that someone living on $2 a day in Africa would wonder “why”. Our culture is screwed up. I’m sorry about your son and any bullying he went through and all that your family is going through. Hang in there friend and keep posting...

 

[EveryoneBleedsGarnet]

For a final (and, I know, unpopular) statement, the most powerful action that people can take to reduce the likelihood of somebody in their homes dying by suicide is to not have guns in their home, especially if an older man or a teenage boy lives in the home. The second most powerful action is to not have alcohol in the home.

* Consider this edit to be a warning.

 

[Manch.]

Sorry to hear what you have gone through Manch. I knew that your son committed suicide but was always leery to ask “how are you doing”, so I figured just seeing you in threads was a good sign.

Is your wife and daughter not speaking with you because you tried committing suicide or other?

Life is tough, we Americans seem to make it tougher. At church on Sunday the pastor said we have problems that someone living on $2 a day in Africa would wonder “why”. Our culture is screwed up. I’m sorry about your son and any bullying he went through and all that your family is going through. Hang in there friend and keep posting...

Gwin, it's a long painful process, everyone mourns differently. He was born on my birthday and was my best friend. After 8+ years of sobriety, I started drinking again. I would just start crying out of the blue. My wife and daughter would accuse me of loving him more because I cried over him and not them. The drinking led me to a 2nd DUI (of which I beat in court) and led me out of the house. My daughter found it convenient that the stricter of the 2 parents was out and her mother lets her do what she wants out of fear of losing another child. They need help, but won't get it. My wife is very bitter and I think uses me as a way to not have to look at herself.

I tried suicide after being alone and thinking of my son, I just wanted those two to stand over my dead body at my wake. Thankfully I took some pills that didn't do the job.

I am hanging in there, I've been sober over a year now and working. I won't get my license back to August of 2018 for refusing to blow. I've seen a grief counselor.

The pain and sorrow of losing a child and the "unknown" that plays games in my head is brutal on an hourly basis and is a topic for a separate thread.

Don't ever stop yourself from asking how I'm doing, sometimes if I just reply with a simple "fine" helps me out. Thanks for asking!

 

[Finance85]

Nobody sad that other methods aren't tried more frequently than guns. It is absolutely a fact that other methods are used more frequently and that supports my statements and Hopkins': the greater lethality of guns is exactly the reason we emphasize them. I have dozens of people on my caseload who have attempted to kill themselves multiple times with pills, knives, suffocation, etc. I have none who have attempted to kill themselves with guns, because those folks typically don't survive long enough to make it to therapy and to recover. Removing guns from homes will save lives. Period.

I wasn't responding to you. Read the thread I responded to before lecturing me. Nothing I said contradicts any post here.

 

[Finance85]

As most of you know, two years ago, my 16 year old son comitted suicide. He was seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist for some anger outbursts and no one saw the suicide coming. We think, but don't known for certain that the death of his grandparents and that he was possibly bullied at some points in his childhood, but we wI'll never know.

He took pills, alot of them, so it wasn't an accident. They were pills that we didn't know he had access to while he helped care for his grandfather, pills that my FIL had him stash away in case he needed extras on days when the pain was more severe.

The suicide had destroyed me to the point that I attempted suicide also. It destroyed my family and my wife of 27 years and 16 year old daughter won't communicate with me.

I'm sorry for your loss. I've had two very close relatives attempt suicide. One of them took pills one time, then rolled her car down a fifty foot enbankment another time, and survived both. The other has taken pills multiple times, and survived. Two close friends of mine each had their father commit suicide. Both of those events came after finding out they had a terminal condition.

There's nothing quite like the feeling of inner conflict one gets when a loved one wants to commit suicide.

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

It's true that guns are more lethal than other methods. It's not accurate to say other methods aren't tried more frequently than guns. Pills are used more often; they just aren't as lethal. Just putting the facts out there. The message shouldn't just be about securing guns.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/105/4/871

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

1. I never said that suicide by gun is more frequent than other methods.

2. Your argument is a total red herring. If someone does a seminar about safe swimming for kids, you're the guy who raised your hand and asked why we're not talking about car safety instead (car accidents kill more kids than drowning does).

3. FSU brought up a good point about guns, in context because the original poster told a story about a friend committing suicide with a gun. I simply backed his assertion on guns. That doesn't mean we don't think pills are a problem, so I have no clue where you arrived at that conclusion.

FSU_UCLA is an expert in this area. He made a good point about the risk of guns in the home and I believe him 100%.

 

[Finance85]

1. I never said that suicide by gun is more frequent than other methods.

2. Your argument is a total red herring. If someone does a seminar about safe swimming for kids, you're the guy who raised your hand and asked why we're not talking about car safety instead (car accidents kill more kids than drowning does).

3. FSU brought up a good point about guns, in context because the original poster told a story about a friend committing suicide with a gun. I simply backed his assertion on guns. That doesn't mean we don't think pills are a problem, so I have no clue where you arrived at that conclusion.

FSU_UCLA is an expert in this area. He made a good point about the risk of guns in the home and I believe him 100%.

I was responding to this statement of yours, so there was no red herring -

You said - BTW, one common refrain I hear alot is that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. That's not true. Teens are extremely impulsive and guns allow the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

I didn't contradict anything you said. You said it isn't true that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. When you said that wasn't true, you were incorrect. Perhaps you mispoke.

I'm aware of Ian's qualifications. I'm also aware of other things that aren't relevant to this discussion or forum.

 

[given2fly]

I was responding to this statement of yours, so there was no red herring -

You said - BTW, one common refrain I hear alot is that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. That's not true. Teens are extremely impulsive and guns allow the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

I didn't contradict anything you said. You said it isn't true that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. When you said that wasn't true, you were incorrect. Perhaps you mispoke.

I'm aware of Ian's qualifications. I'm also aware of other things that aren't relevant to this discussion or forum.

Reminded of this...

 

[Finance85]

Reminded of this...

LOL.

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

I was responding to this statement of yours, so there was no red herring -

You said - BTW, one common refrain I hear alot is that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. That's not true. Teens are extremely impulsive and guns allow the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

I didn't contradict anything you said. You said it isn't true that if teens didn't have guns they would just kill themselves with other methods. When you said that wasn't true, you were incorrect. Perhaps you mispoke.

I'm aware of Ian's qualifications. I'm also aware of other things that aren't relevant to this discussion or forum.

Before I start posting studies to prove you wrong, I want you to agree or disagree with the following claim:

Access to guns increases the risk/rate of suicide.

Is that true or false?

 

[SoddyNole]

I was more interested if AD could make a otherwise healthy individual who was a very social person quickly turn into someone that would commit suicide. That was my intent for the thread.

 

[Finance85]

Before I start posting studies to prove you wrong, I want you to agree or disagree with the following claim:

Access to guns increases the risk/rate of suicide.

Is that true or false?

Prove me wrong about what? You didn't even comprehend my posts.

Of course access to guns increases the risk and rate of suicides. Guns are a very efficient tool.

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

Prove me wrong about what? You didn't even comprehend my posts.

Of course access to guns increases the risk and rate of suicides. Guns are a very efficient tool.

OK since you concede that point, my next question is this:

People who are depressed have equal rates of suicide regardless of whether they have access to guns. True or False?

 

[Finance85]

OK since you concede that point, my next question is this:

People who are depressed have equal rates of suicide regardless of whether they have access to guns. True or False?

I conceded your point the first time.

What point are you trying to make now?

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

I conceded your point the first time.

What point are you trying to make now?

You inferred earlier that people who don't have access to guns will just kill themselves in other ways. That might be true for individual cases, but it's not true for the population as a whole. Furthermore there's lots of evidence proving it's not true.

 

[Finance85]

You inferred earlier that people who don't have access to guns will just kill themselves in other ways. That might be true for individual cases, but it's not true for the population as a whole. Furthermore there's lots of evidence proving it's not true.

People who don't have access to guns kill themselves in other ways every day. It's a tragedy. It truly is. And it's true. My own mother attempted suicide using pills. She had access to lots of guns. I'm guessing she chose pills because she wanted to giver herself a chance. I'll never know the answer to that.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I wasn't responding to you. Read the thread I responded to before lecturing me. Nothing I said contradicts any post here.

I will lecture you anytime I choose to do so.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I was more interested if AD could make a otherwise healthy individual who was a very social person quickly turn into someone that would commit suicide. That was my intent for the thread.

It could seem quick or abrupt from the outside l, but it probably developed gradually for the person with the disease. Also, it’s important to accept that outwardly healthy, happy people commit suicide in addition to people who seem depressed and isolated. Essentially, we all possess the capacity to become suicidal with a terrifying quickness.

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

People who don't have access to guns kill themselves in other ways every day. It's a tragedy. It truly is. And it's true. My own mother attempted suicide using pills. She had access to lots of guns. I'm guessing she chose pills because she wanted to giver herself a chance. I'll never know the answer to that.

Of course people commit suicide without guns. But guns are an independent risk factor for suicide.

Consider the following scenario:

Person #1 has depression and suicidal thoughts. He has a gun in his house.

Person #2 has depression and suicidal thoughts. He does not have a gun in his house.

Person #1 is at a higher risk of suicide than the person #2.

 

[LesClaypool]

I will lecture you anytime I choose to do so.

 

[Finance85]

I will lecture you anytime I choose to do so.

Of course you will, LOL. You can't help it.

 

[Fijimn]

Of course people commit suicide without guns. But guns are an independent risk factor for suicide.

Consider the following scenario:

Person #1 has depression and suicidal thoughts. He has a gun in his house.

Person #2 has depression and suicidal thoughts. He does not have a gun in his house.

Person #1 is at a higher risk of suicide than the person #2.

Are you defining suicide as the act or the intended outcome of the act?

 

[FSU_UCLA]

Are you defining suicide as the act or the intended outcome of the act?

I am a bit confused by your question, Fiji, though I also think I get the distinction that you are making. In practice, I use suicide to refer to the act of killing oneself, and I describe the outcome of the act as death by suicide, in much the same way that I would use homicide or infanticide.

I read Hopkins' post to be referencing death by suicide. As predicting risk of attempted suicide is notoriously difficult to the point of being completely useless. A major metaanalysis published earlier this year noted that in the past fifty years, our ability to predict suicide attempts has not improved and remains no better than chance.

 

[FreeFlyNole]

Just listening to this in the background today.