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Whiskey knowers: Orphan Barrel Rhetoric

NDallasRuss

Veteran Seminole Insider
Dec 5, 2002
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Purcellville, VA
I know nothing about whiskey, but I was asked by a liquor store if I was looking for any Orphan Barrel Rhetoric.

It looks like it's expensive, but is it good enough for me to want to put out a couple of hundred dollars for?

Thanks!
 
100 percent subjective. I can afford it but will never try it and therefore will never miss it. The moment I feel the need to purchase such at item for whatever reason, I will do so.
 
You get a deal with the collectors edition crate for $2,650.00 lol.

http://www.oldtowntequila.com/orpha...MI2afRqcOy2wIVkIvICh3_vQKLEAQYBSABEgKJlPD_BwE

orphan-barrelcrate__47929.1515172418.jpg
 
Sure, it's really good. Is it worth the price tag? Up to you. I don't personally think so. I don't think I'll get 2x the enjoyment out of it that I did that bottle of Pappy 15 in the pic to the left.
 
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I have the 15/20/23. I've tasted them all, all very good. I got them for free.

34107144_10157373435435410_1344821240392581120_n.jpg
Free would be great. This looks like it would run me $200. I'm not sure it makes sense if it's not something I'm into, but if it's something where demand > supply, maybe it's something I want to have if for no other reason than to gift it to someone else at some point.
 
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Free would be great. This looks like it would run me $200. I'm not sure it makes sense if it's not something I'm into, but if it's something where demand > supply, maybe it's something I want to have if for no other reason than to gift it to someone else at some point.

Honestly, once you hit about the $35 price point give or take the taste is subjective because the quality is there. So most of the whiskeys and Scotches I have range from about $30 to $80 with maybe 3-4 more expensive and one or two cheaper.

I can definitely instantly tell (unless it’s the rare actually good quality cheap guy, the “hidden gems” so to speak) anything about $30 and under as they have a noticeable chemical/electrical wang either from not being appropriately distilled (using too big of a “heart” or only post stilled a couple of times), not aged appropriately and/or too low quality of a mash. For instance, take Johnnie Walker. Their highest end named brand (as the Walker & Sons brand have even more expensive) that is commonly available is the blue label. Other than the cheap red label (which is instantly recognizeable as cheap) and Swing (which isn’t cheap but made cheaply), the blue label is actually my least favorite Johnnie by far. I prefer even the black label (their second cheapest) to the blue and my personal preference is for the green. But all of the Johnnies from black up (excluding Swing which is priced higher but basically is a trumped up Red in an interesting bottle) are good quality whiskies. You’ll notice differences in flavor between a Blue and a Gold and a Platinum and a Green but not really a noticeable difference in quality unless you’ve got a superhuman palate.

So my opinion is why spend $150+ trying to find a high end whiskey you love when you’re just as likely to find a $50 whiskey you love. Plus at least for me, my taste will fluctuate with my mood and sometimes I want to the ridiculous smokiness of an Ardberg An Oa or the nuttiness and vanilla of a Baker’s Bourbon or the sweetness and full bodied flavor of Kentucky Spirit or the mellow smoothness of Maker’s Mark 46 or the punch you in the face sharpness and pepperiness of the Bulleit Barrel Strength or the...continue on basically forever. I’d rather spend that $200 getting 4 whiskeys roughly around $50 because you’re going to like at least one of them better than that $200 bottle and maybe even all four.

I generally tend to keep at least one or two types of whiskeys that focus on one or more “flavor profiles” or characteristics. Because especially if you’re making a particular cocktail you might want one strong flavor note shining through whether it’s vanilla, corn, smoke, rye, malt/barley, nuttiness, fruitiness, oaky/woodiness different than just strong vanillans, etc...
 
Honestly, once you hit about the $35 price point give or take the taste is subjective because the quality is there. So most of the whiskeys and Scotches I have range from about $30 to $80 with maybe 3-4 more expensive and one or two cheaper.

I can definitely instantly tell (unless it’s the rare actually good quality cheap guy, the “hidden gems” so to speak) anything about $30 and under as they have a noticeable chemical/electrical wang either from not being appropriately distilled (using too big of a “heart” or only post stilled a couple of times), not aged appropriately and/or too low quality of a mash. For instance, take Johnnie Walker. Their highest end named brand (as the Walker & Sons brand have even more expensive) that is commonly available is the blue label. Other than the cheap red label (which is instantly recognizeable as cheap) and Swing (which isn’t cheap but made cheaply), the blue label is actually my least favorite Johnnie by far. I prefer even the black label (their second cheapest) to the blue and my personal preference is for the green. But all of the Johnnies from black up (excluding Swing which is priced higher but basically is a trumped up Red in an interesting bottle) are good quality whiskies. You’ll notice differences in flavor between a Blue and a Gold and a Platinum and a Green but not really a noticeable difference in quality unless you’ve got a superhuman palate.

So my opinion is why spend $150+ trying to find a high end whiskey you love when you’re just as likely to find a $50 whiskey you love. Plus at least for me, my taste will fluctuate with my mood and sometimes I want to the ridiculous smokiness of an Ardberg An Oa or the nuttiness and vanilla of a Baker’s Bourbon or the sweetness and full bodied flavor of Kentucky Spirit or the mellow smoothness of Maker’s Mark 46 or the punch you in the face sharpness and pepperiness of the Bulleit Barrel Strength or the...continue on basically forever. I’d rather spend that $200 getting 4 whiskeys roughly around $50 because you’re going to like at least one of them better than that $200 bottle and maybe even all four.

I generally tend to keep at least one or two types of whiskeys that focus on one or more “flavor profiles” or characteristics. Because especially if you’re making a particular cocktail you might want one strong flavor note shining through whether it’s vanilla, corn, smoke, rye, malt/barley, nuttiness, fruitiness, oaky/woodiness different than just strong vanillans, etc...
Thanks for this! I think it makes a lot of sense. There's no use paying extra for something where I have no idea about what I'm getting. If I want to get more into it, better to start at a more reasonable level to allow for trial and error. Again, thanks!
 
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Thanks for this! I think it makes a lot of sense. There's no use paying extra for something where I have no idea about what I'm getting. If I want to get more into it, better to start at a more reasonable level to allow for trial and error. Again, thanks!

Check out the Whiskey Vault on YouTube for pretty reliable reviews. I don’t agree with them 100% of the time as taste IS subjective but they’re right with me a solid 90% of the time.

Here’s a couple to get you started





 
Wow - I'm sure that's a really good deal, but since I don't know anything about whiskey I feel that it would be wasted on me.

I was joking but agree it would be wasted on myself too.

In my limited experience, Tribe is correct in his assessment. A lot of the cheaper brands tend to be harsh tasting. I do see a lot of quality products in the 40-55 range. The Booker's I bought was outside that price range and you could tell it was quality product but too much burn for my wimpy self and no intention to purchasing again. Balaton's on the upper end or just outside that range was high quality and have bought several times. On our summer beach trip I will pick up something above my usual price range but still keep under the $100 range for the fear of falling in love with something way outside what I think I should be spending on a spirit. I haven't noticed too much improvement in the $100.00 range over the better $40-55 products. I wonder on a blind taste test if the lessor expensive 4 Roses SB or Elijah Craig 8 which not be picked above many of the brands that are twice their price.

Could a $200 or $500 a bottle whiskey absolutely blow you away and make you want to throw away all the other brands. Possibly but there is some merit to no knowing any better and honestly suspect the difference in quality is well beyond what my unsophisticated pallet can detect.
 
Thanks for this! I think it makes a lot of sense. There's no use paying extra for something where I have no idea about what I'm getting. If I want to get more into it, better to start at a more reasonable level to allow for trial and error. Again, thanks!

A couple of whiskeys, I really enjoy that are quality but won’t break the bank are:

1) Monkey Shoulder which is my second favorite blended Scotch just barely behind Johnnie Walker Green but it’s ALMOST a budget one as you can find it on sale under $30 and typically it’s around $35-40. Green Label which I like ever so slightly better is at $50 on sale and up to $80 depending on where you see it. Another good blend that’s lighter in characteristic than Green Label and Monkey Shoulder and goes for about $70-80 is the Suntory Hibiki which is my favorite Japanese whiskey.

2) Singleton of Glendullan 12 yo is my favorite “lighter” style single malt Scotch. It’s got enough aging in American Oak that you get more vanilla than typical Scotches and it’s got an apply flavor up front that turns into an oaky and barley finish. It’s got just enough smoke you know it’s a Scotch and not an Irish, Canadian or Bourbon, but it’s not going to kick you in the face with smoke. You can find this under $30 on sale.

3) Ardberg An Oa is the best Islay single malt Scotch (which means the smoke punches you in the face) imo and you can usually find it around $70 maybe down to $60 when on sale. If you want SMOKE in your drink or cocktail, then An Oa is the best one. I don’t usually drink it by itself UNLESS I’ve just had a smoky dinner (so smoked brisket, smoked wings etc..), but it works wonders in cocktails.

4) My favorite Irish Whiskey is the Redbreast 12 yo. I actually prefer it at 12 yo over the 15 and 21 versions (cue PedoBear) and you can get the 12 yo sometimes at $50 although usually more like $60-70. Somehow the Redbreast 12 yo is superflavorful with lots of fruit notes and a long finish but still tastes very “light”.

5) Forty Creek Double Barrel Reserve is usually in the $50 mark and is my favorite Canadian. It’s got a rich caramely, butterscotchy vanilla flavor that is indicative of good Canadians but has a peppery bite from a bit of rye that most Canadians are lacking. So it’s more complex than singularly mellow and sweet Canadians like Collingwood and Crown Royal.

6) One of my favorite bourbons is the Wild Turkey Kentucky Spirit which is usually in the $45-65 range. It’s basically a single barrel Wild Turkey 101 that has been aged longer than what typically goes in Wild Turkey. Because it’s single barrel, the flavor varies from bottle to bottle but Wild Turkey in general is a “hidden gem” imo and you get all of the flavours in Kentucky Spirit associated with a good bourbon ie corn forward sweetness, lots of vanilla from the virgin charred American Oak, lots of fruitiness from the yeast in the sour mash and a decent peppery bite from a small percentage of rye.
 
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Some of the best bang for your buck bourbons that I currently have are-

Evan Williams Single Barrell $24 86pf
Eagle Rare 10 $28 90pf
Russell Reserve 10yr $30 90pf
Weller 12 $29 90pf
Old Grandad 114 $30 114pf
Rebel Yell Small Batch $25 90.6pf
Elijah Craig SB $28.99 94pf
Old Forester 100 $ 24 100pf

These are all under $30 and are all great. If you do splurge try picking up one of the above as well and do a little side by side taste test.
 
Honestly, once you hit about the $35 price point give or take the taste is subjective because the quality is there. So most of the whiskeys and Scotches I have range from about $30 to $80 with maybe 3-4 more expensive and one or two cheaper.

I can definitely instantly tell (unless it’s the rare actually good quality cheap guy, the “hidden gems” so to speak) anything about $30 and under as they have a noticeable chemical/electrical wang either from not being appropriately distilled (using too big of a “heart” or only post stilled a couple of times), not aged appropriately and/or too low quality of a mash. For instance, take Johnnie Walker. Their highest end named brand (as the Walker & Sons brand have even more expensive) that is commonly available is the blue label. Other than the cheap red label (which is instantly recognizeable as cheap) and Swing (which isn’t cheap but made cheaply), the blue label is actually my least favorite Johnnie by far. I prefer even the black label (their second cheapest) to the blue and my personal preference is for the green. But all of the Johnnies from black up (excluding Swing which is priced higher but basically is a trumped up Red in an interesting bottle) are good quality whiskies. You’ll notice differences in flavor between a Blue and a Gold and a Platinum and a Green but not really a noticeable difference in quality unless you’ve got a superhuman palate.

So my opinion is why spend $150+ trying to find a high end whiskey you love when you’re just as likely to find a $50 whiskey you love. Plus at least for me, my taste will fluctuate with my mood and sometimes I want to the ridiculous smokiness of an Ardberg An Oa or the nuttiness and vanilla of a Baker’s Bourbon or the sweetness and full bodied flavor of Kentucky Spirit or the mellow smoothness of Maker’s Mark 46 or the punch you in the face sharpness and pepperiness of the Bulleit Barrel Strength or the...continue on basically forever. I’d rather spend that $200 getting 4 whiskeys roughly around $50 because you’re going to like at least one of them better than that $200 bottle and maybe even all four.

I generally tend to keep at least one or two types of whiskeys that focus on one or more “flavor profiles” or characteristics. Because especially if you’re making a particular cocktail you might want one strong flavor note shining through whether it’s vanilla, corn, smoke, rye, malt/barley, nuttiness, fruitiness, oaky/woodiness different than just strong vanillans, etc...
You said electrical wang.
 
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I know nothing about whiskey, but I was asked by a liquor store if I was looking for any Orphan Barrel Rhetoric.

It looks like it's expensive, but is it good enough for me to want to put out a couple of hundred dollars for?

Thanks!
Please do not buy any of them. Barterhouse was the best of the bunch but that's not saying much. Forged Oak was okay, but none of the Rhetorics are worth $129 MSRP, let alone $200+. P&B has some good suggestions above. You should be able to purchase any of those with the exception of Weller 12. Eagle Rare is harder to find. I'll add in Buffalo Trace as a sub-$30 great buy and Four Roses Single Barrel for something around $50-60.
 
Some of the best bang for your buck bourbons that I currently have are-

Evan Williams Single Barrell $24 86pf
Eagle Rare 10 $28 90pf
Russell Reserve 10yr $30 90pf
Weller 12 $29 90pf
Old Grandad 114 $30 114pf
Rebel Yell Small Batch $25 90.6pf
Elijah Craig SB $28.99 94pf
Old Forester 100 $ 24 100pf

These are all under $30 and are all great. If you do splurge try picking up one of the above as well and do a little side by side taste test.
If you can find Weller of any variety on the shelf, I want to live where you do. It's highly allocated and instantly gone here.

Another great set to get a hold of is the Col. E.H. Taylor. Small Batch and Single Barrel are both quite nice, with small batch falling into the $45 range. It's even at Costco here.
 
If you can find Weller of any variety on the shelf, I want to live where you do. It's highly allocated and instantly gone here.

Another great set to get a hold of is the Col. E.H. Taylor. Small Batch and Single Barrel are both quite nice, with small batch falling into the $45 range. It's even at Costco here.
I put my name down on a list for the Weller, but the guy at the store said it was just a formality (this was over a yr ago mind you). They keep it in the back when it gets delivered and only give it out to people on a list. Same with a few others. I didnt realize how hard Weller 12 is to get now, its crazy.

I saw a bottle of EH Taylor in a Connecticut Wine shop a few weeks ago for less than $40. I nearly fell over. I havent seen that on any shelf for yrs.

Cant find Elmer T Lee either. Blantons and Buffalo Trace are starting to be a bitch to find. Crazy how the prices are going up on some of these that were so cheap and easy to find. The only good thing is finding new ones before they become the new craze.
 
I picked up a bottle of Four Roses at a Total Wine for about $32. Threw in an ice cube and flavor really opened up once it started to melt some. Pretty good stuff.
 
I put my name down on a list for the Weller, but the guy at the store said it was just a formality (this was over a yr ago mind you). They keep it in the back when it gets delivered and only give it out to people on a list. Same with a few others. I didnt realize how hard Weller 12 is to get now, its crazy.

I saw a bottle of EH Taylor in a Connecticut Wine shop a few weeks ago for less than $40. I nearly fell over. I havent seen that on any shelf for yrs.

Cant find Elmer T Lee either. Blantons and Buffalo Trace are starting to be a bitch to find. Crazy how the prices are going up on some of these that were so cheap and easy to find. The only good thing is finding new ones before they become the new craze.

I haven't seen Blanton's on the shelf at my local liquor store in a couple of years.
 
Dude, this is insane. Flipping hipsters ruining the market. Four Roses used to be bottom barrel swill. Blanton's was nothing more than a Thursday - Sunday drinker.

I'm a Wild Turkey man myself. I have tried just about every bourbon out there and have plenty in my collection, but nothing hits the spot like any of the WT levels.
 
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Dude, this is insane. Flipping hipsters ruining the market. Four Roses used to be bottom barrel swill. Blanton's was nothing more than a Thursday - Sunday drinker.

I'm a Wild Turkey man myself. I have tried just about every bourbon out there and have plenty in my collection, but nothing hits the spot like any of the WT levels.

I’m 100% on board with you on the Wild Turkey. Especially for its price, it’s a fantastic bargain at all of its levels. I’ve toured almost all of the Bourbon distilleries open to the public including Four Roses, Evan Williams, Woodford, etc... and the only white whiskey base I liked better than Wild Turkey is Maker’s Mark. So when you’re starting with the second best product before barrelling and they use quality handmade barrels you know that the aged product is going to turn out great.

But as far as Four Roses goes, they absolutely USED to be a %*%* product, maybe even the worst as the tour guide said before the new owner they just used standard white moonshine from the giant Indiana distillery a lot of the “boutique” firms use as a base. But their “new” (at least a decade now) owner has turned it into a craft process on par with Makers, Woodford, Wild Turkey, and (not Kentucky I know, but far more hands on craftwerk) Dickel. So your opinion of it from yesteryear was 100% spot on, but now it’s actually a decent product on par with B Whiskeys, Makers, and Wild Turkey. You might not like it from due to personal taste preferences but it’s now a decent handmade product and not a bottom shelf low quality mass produced thing.
 
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Speaking of white whiskies, it’s probably impossible to find outside of Wisconsin, but the Oat Whiskey by Milwaukee’s Central Standard Distillery is surprisingly good. It’s made principally from oat and gives that smooth mellowness you get from any breakfast oatmeal and then they age it for awhile in uncharred barrels to take some of the sting found in white dogs/white whiskeys/moonshines. So you end up with one, very mellow, very smooth white dog.
 
The value with Four Roses is in their Small Batch Single Barrels. The regular ole 4 Roses is on par with Beam white label and Evan Willams Black.

And Wild Turkey 101 is my go to bourbon as well. I go through a handle at least once per month. Have yet to try their Kentucky Spirit, but it's next on my list. Their Rare Breed is great as well.
 
Dude, this is insane. Flipping hipsters ruining the market. Four Roses used to be bottom barrel swill. Blanton's was nothing more than a Thursday - Sunday drinker.

I'm a Wild Turkey man myself. I have tried just about every bourbon out there and have plenty in my collection, but nothing hits the spot like any of the WT levels.
Sounds like you need to try some of the older WT stuff then. I have several bottles from the early 80's through mid-90's that you'd enjoy. Imagine a super flavor intensified, syrupy mouth feel version of today's WT and that's what these older releases taste like. Used to be able to purchase them for around $120-200 secondary depending on the bottle, but now that they start at $200 for mid-90's and go up to $700 for Cheesy Gold Foil I'm not sure it is worth it. They're dang good though.
 
The value with Four Roses is in their Small Batch Single Barrels. The regular ole 4 Roses is on par with Beam white label and Evan Willams Black.

And Wild Turkey 101 is my go to bourbon as well. I go through a handle at least once per month. Have yet to try their Kentucky Spirit, but it's next on my list. Their Rare Breed is great as well.
Russell's Reserve Single Barrel Store Picks are my current jam. Each one is just a little different, but they are all so very good. Surprisingly enough, out of the 20-ish RR picks I have, the most recent one from Market Square Liquors (Rickhouse H , not their M barrel) has been the best I've had. It is similar to the WT Decades release.
 
But as far as Four Roses goes, they absolutely USED to be a %*%* product, maybe even the worst as the tour guide said before the new owner they just used standard white moonshine from the giant Indiana distillery a lot of the “boutique” firms use as a base. But their “new” (at least a decade now) owner has turned it into a craft process on par with Makers, Woodford, Wild Turkey, and (not Kentucky I know, but far more hands on craftwerk) Dickel. So your opinion of it from yesteryear was 100% spot on, but now it’s actually a decent product on par with B Whiskeys, Makers, and Wild Turkey. You might not like it from due to personal taste preferences but it’s now a decent handmade product and not a bottom shelf low quality mass produced thing.

Things turned around for 4R in 1995 when Rutledge was named Master Distiller. The 2008 Marriage release contained some of his first distillate at 4R. Saying 4R is decent is honestly laughable. It is widely regarded as some of the best bourbon currently being released.
 
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Decent collection but it’d be more impressive if a few were empty... whiskey bottles aren’t for collecting dust. ;)

You’re eyes don’t work? I have an opened bottle of Pappy 23 and 12 opened just in the background. I just moved the new ones into the front for the picture. I, like most people, open one as I finish one.
 
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