IB vs. AP

[mcgrawfsu]

I know there was a thread on this a while ago but didn't see the answer. Does anyone know of a list of universities that don't recognize IB credits?

My son is interested in a university with a strong math/engineering school. Right now we have to decide on which high school he will attend, one offers AP, the other IB. The AP school would be much more convenient, but we are willing to accommodate if the IB program will help him getting admitted into a better university.

 

[Wizzle_23]

No advise, but do have a question... is IB, international baccalaureate?

 

[Nole Lou]

We were consistently told that there was no preference for one over the other. Of course, we did not deal with every school in the potential universe you might be looking at, so caveat emptor.

What is most important, and virtually every school says this, is that the student is taking a rigorous course load relative to what the high school offers. Basically, to shoot for the moon, you want to be taking the toughest courses your high school provides. So if he's going to an IB school, and not doing IB, they might look at that. Its a bit odd, but if you go to a school that offers 4 APs and you take them all, your admissions stock is much higher than if you go to a school that offers 20 and you take 6.

If it were me, the first consideration is which one your son thinks he would thrive in more. I don't know much about IB, others here do, but my understanding is that IB is an entire program design...you fulfill certain requirements over all your classes to qualify. AP is a one by one thing...you can take one AP or 15 AP classes, whatever you desire. So...if he thinks that he'd be much better staying on the effort with a set roadmap of requirements over four years, than IB might be better. On the other hand, AP might allow the ability to pick around some of the things he's not quite as comfortable with...maybe miss that second English AP, or skip AP physics.

I would expect any student that could succeed at one could succeed at the other, but maybe one is a better fit for his personality? Unless you have a strong reason to believe he'd be more successful, I'd assume he could handle both just fine.

The second thing I would look at is deep dive now on how many credits you can earn. Colleges all put the credits they accept from each on their website. But it's also going to matter how many classes are offered at the high school in either, so you need to check. I think that in many cases, AP has the potential to provide more credits. HOWEVER...just because the college lists a million AP credits they accept, if the high school only offers six AP classes, he might be able to get more from IB. This is a huge consideration...it's not THAT difficult with AP to have a full year's credits and enter college technically as a sophomore. It could save you a lot of money, and get your son into the the money earning market a year earlier, but that's not the only advantage. You also might be able to get a double major or minor in four years.

But the main advantage of credits for your son might be the ability to take 4 classes instead of 5 a few semesters and still graduate on time. That's huge either way. My oldest is graduating Alabama in three years (with two summer classes), while my daughter if she goes to Georgia Tech will almost certainly take all four years (I hope), but be able to lighten the load. There, it might be the difference between four years and five. I don't know about IB, but if your school offers them, there are quite a few "easy" APs like human geography, government, etc that are like free credits/money.

To me, I'd go with whichever one is easier/closer. I'd just concentrate on two things, based on what the high school offers...which one will make it look like your son took as aggressive a course load as he could, and which one will pocket him the most credits. I wouldn't even consider whether AP or IB is more attractive to admissions, unless you have reason to believe a particular college expressly desires that.

Note, high schools could offer 20+ APs...colleges don't expect kids to take all of them to prove they took a rigorous schedule...scheduling doesn't even allow that. The most aggressive kids I think get up around 15 or more, but if your school offers that many, 11-13 over four years is generally considered aggressive enough. It really takes a lot of maneuvering and perfect scheduling and maybe some summer classes to fit in more than that. If the school offers more like 8 or 9, and if he can take them all, he's done about as well as he can do for admissions purposes. If credit potential was equal, I personally would go AP for the flexibility, if you look at the school's list of APs and he can either find 10+ he's comfortable with, or if they have less than ten, he feels like he can do them all.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

High school sounds terrible these days.

 

[seminole4life1]

AP > IB for 95% of kids. Even then its hard to identify that 5% that IB is the right fit for in 9/10th grade.

Lots of parents/kids overshoot and start pre-IB or IB programs and end up falling back to a regular diploma- this is not an attractive transcript.

Unless your kid absolutely is obsessed with school, is completely bored in the most challenging courses, hates sports/extracurricular fun/free time I think IB is overkill.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

High school sounds terrible these days.

It is beyond absurd. Most of the extreme insanity starts with the parents, and it significantly pre-dates high school. Little Omar and Princess Anya must be involved in EVERY conceivable activity, and they must excel in ALL of them. Honest-to-God-true story: Kids were in 5th grade, and participating in an inconsequential swim meet. As soon as Omar finished his event — and while still dripping wet — Mom runs over to him with his cello so he can immediately begin practice, pool-side. No minute could be wasted!!!

Anything short of Valedictorian and Nuclear Brain Surgeon would not be tolerated!!!!

 

[MIKE_G]

There is absolutely zero difference between IB or AP....

...when you're kid eats Tide Pods.

 

[SoddyNole]

Dual-enrollment may be the third option. Some states have promise scholarships that will pay most if not all of the tuition up to an AA. These scholarships have been expanded of late to cover high school students so the issue of the credits transferring and wasting tuition fees is not as looming as it once was. In this program your kid will get the actual experience and environment of a college course before leaving the house.

 

[Nole Lou]

Dual-enrollment may be the third option. Some states have promise scholarships that will pay most if not all of the tuition up to an AA. These scholarships have been expanded of late to cover high school students so the issue of the credits transferring and wasting tuition fees is not as looming as it once was. In this program your kid will get the actual experience and environment of a college course before leaving the house.

Yep, dual enrollment is good, and the reason dual enrollment can be better than either is that you can get college credits and it doesn't come down to passing a single test at the end. The downside to dual enrollment is from my understanding is that it's slightly less attractive to colleges than taking the most challenging courses in your high school. I have no idea why, and it doesn't make sense to me, but apparently it's not valued quite as much. But it's certainly doesn't have to be a hindrance either. If your kid has several AP classes and is a 4.0+ student, it's not going to hurt him to have a couple dual enrollments senior year. If he's a 3.5 student with one AP, taking and crushing four APs would would probably look better than picking up some dual enrollment, purely from an admissions perspective.

But the credits are huge, and depending on where your kid is trying to go, getting credits in pocket could easily be worth a marginally less attractive application, since nothing is guaranteed anyway. Given the cost of college, credits are good any way you get them.

 

[mcgrawfsu]

Dual-enrollment may be the third option. Some states have promise scholarships that will pay most if not all of the tuition up to an AA. These scholarships have been expanded of late to cover high school students so the issue of the credits transferring and wasting tuition fees is not as looming as it once was. In this program your kid will get the actual experience and environment of a college course before leaving the house.

This is something one of his baseball coaches suggested. His daughter dual-enrolled and got a scholarship to play softball at NYU. The high school she attended was probably the lowest of the 3 in our area.

My son's goal is to play baseball at Harvard and take extra classes at MIT. His goal, not mine. My son is good at baseball, but honestly, it is still way too early in my opinion to tell whether he will play beyond high school. However, we want to make sure that we (he) makes the right choice for high school so that goal isn't eliminated before stepping foot in high school.

We're having him make a list of his top 10 choices for college and then researching them to see if there is any preference for AP/IB.

 

[Nole Lou]

This is something one of his baseball coaches suggested. His daughter dual-enrolled and got a scholarship to play softball at NYU. The high school she attended was probably the lowest of the 3 in our area.

My son's goal is to play baseball at Harvard and take extra classes at MIT. His goal, not mine. My son is good at baseball, but honestly, it is still way too early in my opinion to tell whether he will play beyond high school. However, we want to make sure that we (he) makes the right choice for high school so that goal isn't eliminated before stepping foot in high school.

We're having him make a list of his top 10 choices for college and then researching them to see if there is any preference for AP/IB.

Harvard does not accept dual enrollment credits (nor give any AP credits). MIT doesn't for the math department. I can't believe either school would find dual enrollment that attractive, unless he was taking college classes at Duke or Vanderbilt or something as a high schooler (have no idea if that's even possible).

Kudos to your son for being so ambitious. You should encourage that kind of ambition.

However, that is one of the most ridiculous goals I've ever heard. Frankly, I think if your son was that kind of student, you'd already know it. I'm assuming he's never gotten below a 99 on anything to this point?

Is he the smartest person (not child) you've already met? Does he already have his own successful business or charitable foundation? Does everyone you know tell you he's the most remarkable child that they've ever known? Does he have any patents?

Because that's pretty much the kind of person you've described. Any one of those goals (college baseball, Harvard, MIT) are awesome goals, and very difficult goals But go on college confidential and look at what kind of resumes kids have to just get into a Harvard or Stanford, let alone also take classes at MIT and be a college athlete.

It's a lot bigger than AP vs IB. You need to be looking at special schools, inventing something, starting an organization to bring water to an African village, interning at the Supreme Court, that kind of thing...combined with a perfect or near perfect SAT. And even then it's hit or miss. You can do that and still get shut down.

It's ok I guess for him to have those goals, but you definitely need to also make sure gently over his high school years to temper him with secondary goals for which he'd still be very satisfied.

Just talking honestly, of course no offense meant.

 

[GbrNole]

i have a bit of experience with this, my daughter is an IB diploma holder - she loved it - would i have her do it over again if i could turn back time? depends.

Pros for IB:
1. it's absolutely fantastic prep for college curriculum and course work. it gets the students into good time management habits early so college is not a shock to the system.
2. the diploma is recognized internationally so if college overseas is a goal, it helps, a lot.
3. having the diploma is a straight shot to the full florida bright futures allowance.
4. in most instances it provides college credits but, if i recall, those are capped at a maximum of 45.
5. you can concurrently take certain AP courses and college level courses.
6. the kids are constantly around like minded kids.

Cons for IB:
1. in my experience it does not prepare the kids well for standardized testing. my daughter, nor any of her friends, did poorly on the ACT or SAT but they didn't light it up either. highly recommend getting a tutor for SAT / ACT testing, especially if in IB.
2. as has been previously noted, the diploma hinges on final testing. 4 years of home time dedicated to IB course work can be for nothing if the kids don't get the necessary core scores on their final tests and EE.
3. as noted above, you are capped on the number of college credits you can earn. you can't enter college as a junior by solely taking IB.
4. the classes are heavily weighted which looks fantastic for your weighted GPA but the kids cannot lose sight of their unweighted, core GPA.

if my daughter was entering 9th grade now i would have to think about it carefully and armed with the knowledge gained, would likely encourage her to do IB again. the pros do outweigh the cons, in my opinion. in so far as alternates, i wouldn't encourage her to go the AP / honors route. it will get those college credits assuming the student grades well enough in the class but at the end of the day, it's still just enhanced general education.

where i would be torn is between IB and dual enrollment.

the long thread started by @morekirklessspock is a great read where parents, him and myself included, discuss just how competitive it is these days to achieve college acceptance letters.

 

[GbrNole]

No advise, but do have a question... is IB, international baccalaureate?

yes.

 

[TarHeels740]

If your goal is for your child to get the best education, then IB is the choice. Not really close.

AP is all standardized testing and allows the student to pick and choose the subjects they are strong in. IB will challenge the student in all areas and force them to write, a lot.

 

[funksouljon]

It is beyond absurd. Most of the extreme insanity starts with the parents, and it significantly pre-dates high school. Little Omar and Princess Anya must be involved in EVERY conceivable activity, and they must excel in ALL of them. Honest-to-God-true story: Kids were in 5th grade, and participating in an inconsequential swim meet. As soon as Omar finished his event — and while still dripping wet — Mom runs over to him with his cello so he can immediately begin practice, pool-side. No minute could be wasted!!!

Anything short of Valedictorian and Nuclear Brain Surgeon would not be tolerated!!!!

Seems a lot like the Tiger-mom approach. Which was the exception 20 years ago.

 

[mcgrawfsu]

Harvard does not accept dual enrollment credits (nor give any AP credits). MIT doesn't for the math department. I can't believe either school would find dual enrollment that attractive, unless he was taking college classes at Duke or Vanderbilt or something as a high schooler (have no idea if that's even possible).

Kudos to your son for being so ambitious. You should encourage that kind of ambition.

However, that is one of the most ridiculous goals I've ever heard. Frankly, I think if your son was that kind of student, you'd already know it. I'm assuming he's never gotten below a 99 on anything to this point?

Is he the smartest person (not child) you've already met? Does he already have his own successful business or charitable foundation? Does everyone you know tell you he's the most remarkable child that they've ever known? Does he have any patents?

Because that's pretty much the kind of person you've described. Any one of those goals (college baseball, Harvard, MIT) are awesome goals, and very difficult goals But go on college confidential and look at what kind of resumes kids have to just get into a Harvard or Stanford, let alone also take classes at MIT and be a college athlete.

It's a lot bigger than AP vs IB. You need to be looking at special schools, inventing something, starting an organization to bring water to an African village, interning at the Supreme Court, that kind of thing...combined with a perfect or near perfect SAT. And even then it's hit or miss. You can do that and still get shut down.

It's ok I guess for him to have those goals, but you definitely need to also make sure gently over his high school years to temper him with secondary goals for which he'd still be very satisfied.

Just talking honestly, of course no offense meant.

Pretty much, yes, but he's also my kid. We do get compliments from just about every adult he interacts with, but compliments don't get you into an Ivy. He's been raising money for a local homeless organization for a couple years now and has several business plans he's created, some of them pretty good actually. He's always thinking of things to invent, but nothing yet that could be patented. He wants to take over my business one day, but he's WAY too smart for that. He won the county math competition in 5th grade, then won the middle school math competition (5 counties) as a 6th grader and currently runs the math team practices since the teacher (she's very smart as well) can't understand some of the concepts. or at least he explains it better. He's got the weird smart kid intelligence with some athletic ability and social skills. He voluntarily goes to the Language Arts teacher's morning tutoring sessions because he had a 98 and thought he could do better. I'm confident he'll meet the academic qualifications, but as you mentioned, there are a lot of secondary qualifications they look at.

With that in mind, I think the only sure fire way for him to be accepted is if he qualifies academically and the baseball coach has him accepted. The baseball coach whose daughter went to NYU is good friends with several Ivy coaches, so if he's good enough, i'm sure we can get him a look. He had 2 of the kids he works with (brothers believe it or not) get into Harvard and Stanford (this one had a scholarship to UF but told them to take a hike when he was accepted into Stanford). Side note; he's not one of those coaches that fills parents with ideas that if they keep paying him he'll get him a scholarship. He charges for his lessons, but started working with my son for free. I'm encouraging him to look at other great STEM schools like Ga Tech as well. There are actually baseball tournaments for wicked smart kids that require certain SAT and GPA scores. A lot of the upper tier academic school's coaches recruit at these since they know the kids will qualify.

Thanks for the input. We know there's more to it, but this AP/IB thing has us torn. There are a few special schools we're looking into, but our concern is none if his friends would be at those schools and we don't want him to feel isolated. He has a long way to go between now and then, but I just want to make sure I'm helping him make the right decisions to at least qualify. And, if he doesn't make it in (most likely), we want to make sure he does get into another one of his top choices. I can't believe I have to put this much thought into this at this age....

 

[GbrNole]

Pretty much, yes, but he's also my kid. We do get compliments from just about every adult he interacts with, but compliments don't get you into an Ivy. He's been raising money for a local homeless organization for a couple years now and has several business plans he's created, some of them pretty good actually. He's always thinking of things to invent, but nothing yet that could be patented. He wants to take over my business one day, but he's WAY too smart for that. He won the county math competition in 5th grade, then won the middle school math competition (5 counties) as a 6th grader and currently runs the math team practices since the teacher (she's very smart as well) can't understand some of the concepts. or at least he explains it better. He's got the weird smart kid intelligence with some athletic ability and social skills. He voluntarily goes to the Language Arts teacher's morning tutoring sessions because he had a 98 and thought he could do better. I'm confident he'll meet the academic qualifications, but as you mentioned, there are a lot of secondary qualifications they look at.

With that in mind, I think the only sure fire way for him to be accepted is if he qualifies academically and the baseball coach has him accepted. The baseball coach whose daughter went to NYU is good friends with several Ivy coaches, so if he's good enough, i'm sure we can get him a look. He had 2 of the kids he works with (brothers believe it or not) get into Harvard and Stanford (this one had a scholarship to UF but told them to take a hike when he was accepted into Stanford). Side note; he's not one of those coaches that fills parents with ideas that if they keep paying him he'll get him a scholarship. He charges for his lessons, but started working with my son for free. I'm encouraging him to look at other great STEM schools like Ga Tech as well. There are actually baseball tournaments for wicked smart kids that require certain SAT and GPA scores. A lot of the upper tier academic school's coaches recruit at these since they know the kids will qualify.

Thanks for the input. We know there's more to it, but this AP/IB thing has us torn. There are a few special schools we're looking into, but our concern is none if his friends would be at those schools and we don't want him to feel isolated. He has a long way to go between now and then, but I just want to make sure I'm helping him make the right decisions to at least qualify. And, if he doesn't make it in (most likely), we want to make sure he does get into another one of his top choices. I can't believe I have to put this much thought into this at this age....

by your description, IB is far more appropriate for him than AP. my number one reason for that is that he will constantly be with like minded kids (maybe not as smart as him but certainly driven) and several of those will be athletes. IB was essentially a school within a school for my daughter. athletics was shared but the IB kids had their own dedicated group of teachers and counselors.

 

[RTM58]

With that in mind, I think the only sure fire way for him to be accepted is if he qualifies academically and the baseball coach has him accepted. ....

If the coach like him, he'll get in and he might get an "academic" scholly. It's not dissimilar to state schools.

Two of the kids he works with (brothers believe it or not) get into Harvard and Stanford (this one had a scholarship to UF but told them to take a hike when he was accepted into Stanford).

If only they had gone with UF is the Stanford of the East.

Stanford choice is a no-brainer. (in my best Jimbo voice)

 

[Nole Lou]

Pretty much, yes, but he's also my kid. We do get compliments from just about every adult he interacts with, but compliments don't get you into an Ivy. He's been raising money for a local homeless organization for a couple years now and has several business plans he's created, some of them pretty good actually. He's always thinking of things to invent, but nothing yet that could be patented. He wants to take over my business one day, but he's WAY too smart for that. He won the county math competition in 5th grade, then won the middle school math competition (5 counties) as a 6th grader and currently runs the math team practices since the teacher (she's very smart as well) can't understand some of the concepts. or at least he explains it better. He's got the weird smart kid intelligence with some athletic ability and social skills. He voluntarily goes to the Language Arts teacher's morning tutoring sessions because he had a 98 and thought he could do better. I'm confident he'll meet the academic qualifications, but as you mentioned, there are a lot of secondary qualifications they look at.

With that in mind, I think the only sure fire way for him to be accepted is if he qualifies academically and the baseball coach has him accepted. The baseball coach whose daughter went to NYU is good friends with several Ivy coaches, so if he's good enough, i'm sure we can get him a look. He had 2 of the kids he works with (brothers believe it or not) get into Harvard and Stanford (this one had a scholarship to UF but told them to take a hike when he was accepted into Stanford). Side note; he's not one of those coaches that fills parents with ideas that if they keep paying him he'll get him a scholarship. He charges for his lessons, but started working with my son for free. I'm encouraging him to look at other great STEM schools like Ga Tech as well. There are actually baseball tournaments for wicked smart kids that require certain SAT and GPA scores. A lot of the upper tier academic school's coaches recruit at these since they know the kids will qualify.

Thanks for the input. We know there's more to it, but this AP/IB thing has us torn. There are a few special schools we're looking into, but our concern is none if his friends would be at those schools and we don't want him to feel isolated. He has a long way to go between now and then, but I just want to make sure I'm helping him make the right decisions to at least qualify. And, if he doesn't make it in (most likely), we want to make sure he does get into another one of his top choices. I can't believe I have to put this much thought into this at this age....

That's a starting point. To be honest, most SERIOUS Ivy hopefuls parents who know what they're doing would look at the list of accomplishments and say "well isn't that cute." However, it's obviously all super impressive for a kid his age, and shows that if he really gets serious about Harvard/Stanford, he might do it. If he doesn't bump up against his limit, he at least he has the raw tools and mentality to maybe do it. Especially with the baseball side of it.

And just to be clear...I hate all that serious Harvard/Stanford parent thing...I would literally NEVER do that to my kids, it's total nonsense. There's letting your kids pursue their dreams, and there's joining in and making it your dream too, which so many of these parents do. What your kid has already shown is phenomenal, top 2% type stuff...he's going to do awesome. The important thing I guess is to let them pursue it within their interests, but also make sure they never feel like a full ride at Duke is some kind of crushing disappointment or failure.

GBR makes a good point about IB being more similar to a college diploma, with well rounded course requirements to complete for the diploma etc. That is a good prep for college, where you have to do the same sort of thing...that was definitely foreign to my daughter when she got to college and had to start tracking that stuff.

But AP classes keep you away from the riff raff too, as long as the high school offers most/all of them. Kids can basically take virtually all AP classes from sophomore year on if they're offered. They might have gym or health, etc, but otherwise they're going to be in classes with like minded kids just like IB. But if the school only offers 5-6 APs, then no, I would forget about it. One of the best things about APs is exactly that, the classes aren't bogged down with the dullards, so you want to be able to take most of your classes in AP if you're really trying to separate.

But AP doesn't simulate college the way IB does.

That said, your kid is going to crush it either way...I think you're putting a little too much stress on this. You shouldn't be worried that he's somehow not going to be prepared to handle college if he picks the wrong one. At Harvard, having IB vs 18 APs is just like a starting point anyway. It's not going to factor in the decision competitively in the least, it's just going to get you in the stack to actually be looked at.

Congrats on having such an awesome kid.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

So I did IB, a few thoughts...happy to answer other questions via DM.

I was a total slacker, but fortunately I guess sorta smart, so managed to get my IB diploma and clipped a year off of college at uf (went there to spy behind enemy lines - they're filthy, just filthy).

IB was a lot of work, for a guy who was too lazy to read any of the long winded posts in this thread, it was tedious. That said, in retrospect, it's the best education I think you can get in the USA, and I'm glad I persevered through it. I deeply regret not soaking more of it up. I was smarter on the day I graduated high school than any day since then.

College was easy, a total joke. After taking an IB course load, you're exceptionally well prepared for college. MIT/Harvard, perhaps not so much, but I think IB prepares your mind to think in a manner that would lead to earlier success at those universities. AP, as others have said, is more piece by piece, which is great for some, but doesn't provide you with the same type mental muscle training as IB in terms of how you process information.

As for free time in IB, I had plenty, we still played bball for an hour or two after school every day, had friends and I were on any combination of the football, band, swimming, tennis, brainbowl, spanish, and debate teams -- and still had time to watch a ton of TV and all football.

The baseball at Harvard/MIT thing isn't too far fetched, a friend at the research lab I worked at in college did just that (at MIT).

Also I think middle school pre-IB is total overkill.

Disclaimer: I graduated IB nearly 20 years ago... so my inability to form complete thoughts and sentences should be blamed on being out here in genpop with you mongrels.

 

[Bartdog]

AP > IB for 95% of kids. Even then its hard to identify that 5% that IB is the right fit for in 9/10th grade.
. . .

Unless your kid absolutely is obsessed with school, is completely bored in the most challenging courses, hates sports/extracurricular fun/free time I think IB is overkill.

Whoa there, Nelly! You can do IB and still have a life. Both my girls did IB and both did sports and other activities. Oldest was all conference in tennis and practiced year round, did tournaments, etc. She also did thespians and did regional and state competition. The other was a rower and went to nationals twice after medaling at the state and regional levels. She medaled at state the other two years. They practiced 6 days a week during sprint season. They were not alone in that regard either.

It definitely teaches you some incredible time management and study discipline/skills.

 

[seminole4life1]

Whoa there, Nelly! You can do IB and still have a life. Both my girls did IB and both did sports and other activities. Oldest was all conference in tennis and practiced year round, did tournaments, etc. She also did thespians and did regional and state competition. The other was a rower and went to nationals twice after medaling at the state and regional levels. She medaled at state the other two years. They practiced 6 days a week during sprint season. They were not alone in that regard either.

It definitely teaches you some incredible time management and study discipline/skills.

Sounds like they are in the 5% that it works for! It is very challenging for nearly all kids to pull that schedule off successfully and be balanced in life in a healthy way.

 

[GbrNole]

Whoa there, Nelly! You can do IB and still have a life. Both my girls did IB and both did sports and other activities. Oldest was all conference in tennis and practiced year round, did tournaments, etc. She also did thespians and did regional and state competition. The other was a rower and went to nationals twice after medaling at the state and regional levels. She medaled at state the other two years. They practiced 6 days a week during sprint season. They were not alone in that regard either.

It definitely teaches you some incredible time management and study discipline/skills.

have to agree 100% here.

when my daughter was making her IB decision prior to entering 9th grade (they do pre-IB at her high school) she was quite fearful of all this talk of no time for sports, no time for social life etc. the only parenting i've really had to do on her behalf since 2013 was to help her cut through that bullshit and encourage her, first and foremost, to talk to kids already in the program and then secondly to speak with the course counselors regarding academic support etc.

i've been on the bench since then where she's concerned. fortunately the son, regrettably, still gives me plenty opportunity to step up to the plate. he might need a year or three off before beginning college...

 

[mcgrawfsu]

That's a starting point. To be honest, most SERIOUS Ivy hopefuls parents who know what they're doing would look at the list of accomplishments and say "well isn't that cute." However, it's obviously all super impressive for a kid his age, and shows that if he really gets serious about Harvard/Stanford, he might do it. If he doesn't bump up against his limit, he at least he has the raw tools and mentality to maybe do it. Especially with the baseball side of it.

And just to be clear...I hate all that serious Harvard/Stanford parent thing...I would literally NEVER do that to my kids, it's total nonsense. There's letting your kids pursue their dreams, and there's joining in and making it your dream too, which so many of these parents do. What your kid has already shown is phenomenal, top 2% type stuff...he's going to do awesome. The important thing I guess is to let them pursue it within their interests, but also make sure they never feel like a full ride at Duke is some kind of crushing disappointment or failure.

GBR makes a good point about IB being more similar to a college diploma, with well rounded course requirements to complete for the diploma etc. That is a good prep for college, where you have to do the same sort of thing...that was definitely foreign to my daughter when she got to college and had to start tracking that stuff.

But AP classes keep you away from the riff raff too, as long as the high school offers most/all of them. Kids can basically take virtually all AP classes from sophomore year on if they're offered. They might have gym or health, etc, but otherwise they're going to be in classes with like minded kids just like IB. But if the school only offers 5-6 APs, then no, I would forget about it. One of the best things about APs is exactly that, the classes aren't bogged down with the dullards, so you want to be able to take most of your classes in AP if you're really trying to separate.

But AP doesn't simulate college the way IB does.

That said, your kid is going to crush it either way...I think you're putting a little too much stress on this. You shouldn't be worried that he's somehow not going to be prepared to handle college if he picks the wrong one. At Harvard, having IB vs 18 APs is just like a starting point anyway. It's not going to factor in the decision competitively in the least, it's just going to get you in the stack to actually be looked at.

Congrats on having such an awesome kid.

I agree on the parents pushing thing. I make sure he pushes himself academically and athletically, but if he ever decided he didn't want to play baseball or pursue such lofty educational goals I'd support him. The community service stuff he does completely on his own.

Funny story, we were at the state math competition last year and he was blowing through the rounds. I guess some of these kids have been competing for a couple years and he knocked off some well known kids. Some of the other crazy helicopter parents cornered us and asked us how many hours a day he practices and who his math coach is. I laughed and said zero, but I can tell you who his pitching coach is if that helps.

 

[Wizzle_23]

i have a bit of experience with this, my daughter is an IB diploma holder - she loved it - would i have her do it over again if i could turn back time? depends.

Pros for IB:
1. it's absolutely fantastic prep for college curriculum and course work. it gets the students into good time management habits early so college is not a shock to the system.
2. the diploma is recognized internationally so if college overseas is a goal, it helps, a lot.
3. having the diploma is a straight shot to the full florida bright futures allowance.
4. in most instances it provides college credits but, if i recall, those are capped at a maximum of 45.
5. you can concurrently take certain AP courses and college level courses.
6. the kids are constantly around like minded kids.

Cons for IB:
1. in my experience it does not prepare the kids well for standardized testing. my daughter, nor any of her friends, did poorly on the ACT or SAT but they didn't light it up either. highly recommend getting a tutor for SAT / ACT testing, especially if in IB.
2. as has been previously noted, the diploma hinges on final testing. 4 years of home time dedicated to IB course work can be for nothing if the kids don't get the necessary core scores on their final tests and EE.
3. as noted above, you are capped on the number of college credits you can earn. you can't enter college as a junior by solely taking IB.
4. the classes are heavily weighted which looks fantastic for your weighted GPA but the kids cannot lose sight of their unweighted, core GPA.

if my daughter was entering 9th grade now i would have to think about it carefully and armed with the knowledge gained, would likely encourage her to do IB again. the pros do outweigh the cons, in my opinion. in so far as alternates, i wouldn't encourage her to go the AP / honors route. it will get those college credits assuming the student grades well enough in the class but at the end of the day, it's still just enhanced general education.

where i would be torn is between IB and dual enrollment.

the long thread started by @morekirklessspock is a great read where parents, him and myself included, discuss just how competitive it is these days to achieve college acceptance letters.

I have a son who will be entering Kindergarten this year. We live in Raleigh and have really really great magnet school options. We have narrowed it down to 3/4 and one is an IB school. If what you say is true, sounds like we should move them up a bit.

 

[Nole Lou]

I agree on the parents pushing thing. I make sure he pushes himself academically and athletically, but if he ever decided he didn't want to play baseball or pursue such lofty educational goals I'd support him. The community service stuff he does completely on his own.

Funny story, we were at the state math competition last year and he was blowing through the rounds. I guess some of these kids have been competing for a couple years and he knocked off some well known kids. Some of the other crazy helicopter parents cornered us and asked us how many hours a day he practices and who his math coach is. I laughed and said zero, but I can tell you who his pitching coach is if that helps.

Awesome. When my second daughter started talking about Harvard when she was a freshman in high school, I talked about the kind of things that she was going to have to do to have a shot, and no matter what she possibly did, there was still a chance to miss. I said I would be very, very proud of her if she decided that was what she was going to go for, and even suggested how she could try to parlay things she was interested in, like her volunteer work into a foundation, or her etsy sales into a "real business".

But I said all that I was really going to do is make sure we weren't throwing up obstacles if she was going to try. I was NOT going to be after her asking how much test prep she did, or how much money she raised, or if she'd scheduled that lunch with some local Harvard alumni, or building a business for her, etc. Obviously we'd support and advise if she wanted, but this had to be HER thing. After all, her parents weren't going to Harvard with her.

I think she kicked it around for most of that year, and decided to focus on a more manageable goal that she'd still be thrilled with (GT) and that she felt was elite enough for her. She still did a ton, increased her scores, started a farmer's market, etc...but I think she was afraid of driving herself crazy.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Sounds like they are in the 5% that it works for! It is very challenging for nearly all kids to pull that schedule off successfully and be balanced in life in a healthy way.

Either avenue, IB or AP-heavy, is only suitable for a fraction of students and while IB certainly is more immersive and time consuming than a load of AP classes, it's not as onerous as you seem to think.

My class was full of slackers and everyone seemed to manage a decent social life, some extra curriculars, and their course work. I think our IB diploma rate was right at the global average, impressive as we had some faculty misses and we ourselves were a roughshod (but gritty) group -- wouldn't have it any other way. We weren't the nerds you picture in the program. It seems these days a lot of the pressure is artificial and not based on the coursework or exams themselves.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I need to watch my soon-to-be high schooler. He's a very good student and a smart kid but is much more interested in sports and Xbox than academics. The thing that concerns me slightly is he exhibits some early characteristics of a CEO or a career criminal. Just not yet sure which.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I need to watch my soon-to-be high schooler. He's a very good student and a smart kid but is much more interested in sports and Xbox than academics. The thing that concerns me slightly is he exhibits some early characteristics of a CEO or a career criminal. Just not yet sure which.

Potato, potahto.

 

[seminole4life1]

Either avenue, IB or AP-heavy, is only suitable for a fraction of students and while IB certainly is more immersive and time consuming than a load of AP classes, it's not as onerous as you seem to think.

My class was full of slackers and everyone seemed to manage a decent social life, some extra curriculars, and their course work. I think our IB diploma rate was right at the global average, impressive as we had some faculty misses and we ourselves were a roughshod (but gritty) group -- wouldn't have it any other way. We weren't the nerds you picture in the program. It seems these days a lot of the pressure is artificial and not based on the coursework or exams themselves.

I know the program very well (went to a school with huge a IB/AP presence, was a college academic advisor, high school teacher and in education policy). You may underestimate the gap between the work you and your class did with the "average" high school course load/experience. I am not anti IB, it is a great program if the student is the right fit. I just had a ton of transcripts cross my desk of students that started in IB, faltered and left HS with less college credit than they could have had if they went the AP/dual enrollment route from the beginning. And as a result of dropping the program were dinged for their high school performance. Take it or leave, I don't pretend to know OP's kid so I am speaking in general.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

You may underestimate the gap between the work you and your class did with the "average" high school course load/experience

I was only comparing IB with an AP-heavy course load, not with the 'average' course load.
IB or a heavy load of AP are both certainly way more work for the 'average' student than 'average' course work.

But if you're going to take a ton of AP classes, it may only be marginally more work to enroll in IB, but IMO more often than not an ambitious, smart student stands to gain more than they lose by doing so - and won't dramatically jeopardize the time for social/extracurricular activities they would have had in a heavy AP load.

 

[Nole Lou]

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I need to watch my soon-to-be high schooler. He's a very good student and a smart kid but is much more interested in sports and Xbox than academics. The thing that concerns me slightly is he exhibits some early characteristics of a CEO or a career criminal. Just not yet sure which.

I can't speak for IB, just tell him you expect him to take APs, IF he's decently smart. They make a big deal out of how hard they are, but they're not much harder than probably honors classes were when we were younger. Some of them like the social studies expect more reading so there's that, but for the most part the material isn't that much harder. How much harder they are is offset by the fact that they aren't hampered down to the slowest or most disruptive kid in the class so smart kids aren't bored or ground down with constant review. Plus, the APs often have the best teachers.

You don't have to be as dedicated as they make it sound for APs. Maybe if you're taking 6 at once might add up with the extra reading, but still, they make them sound scarier than they are. Probably why IB folks are saying that is a more challenging program.

 

[mcgrawfsu]

I can't speak for IB, just tell him you expect him to take APs, IF he's decently smart. They make a big deal out of how hard they are, but they're not much harder than probably honors classes were when we were younger. Some of them like the social studies expect more reading so there's that, but for the most part the material isn't that much harder. How much harder they are is offset by the fact that they aren't hampered down to the slowest or most disruptive kid in the class so smart kids aren't bored or ground down with constant review. Plus, the APs often have the best teachers.

You don't have to be as dedicated as they make it sound for APs. Maybe if you're taking 6 at once might add up with the extra reading, but still, they make them sound scarier than they are. Probably why IB folks are saying that is a more challenging program.

From what I've been told about my local schools, the A/P school has had a number of the great A/P teachers retire over the past few years and they haven't hired quality replacements. The IB school has not had any turnover. And the lady that runs the IB is very well known and accessible to the students. Her and my wife have been going back and forth on Facebook and she mentioned a student from last year that was accepted to an Ivy to play baseball. Another this year for sailing I believe.

 

[Nole Lou]

From what I've been told about my local schools, the A/P school has had a number of the great A/P teachers retire over the past few years and they haven't hired quality replacements. The IB school has not had any turnover. And the lady that runs the IB is very well known and accessible to the students. Her and my wife have been going back and forth on Facebook and she mentioned a student from last year that was accepted to an Ivy to play baseball. Another this year for sailing I believe.

Sorry, I was talking to Rocky who was worried his smart kid wasn't interested in academics.

You're clearly into the IB, and your kid will crush it. I don't think you need to keep convincing yourself of it, so just go IB because that's what you're feeling. I'm telling you, if your kid is Harvard material, you're WAY too fixated on the question, which is so far under their radar, they don't even give any credit for these. Just go IB and be done with it if that's what you're feeling...your kid is going to thrive in either program.

Whichever one he's feeling like he would be more comfortable with is fine, if it's IB then great. If he's a Harvard prospect, either of them, whether he has the best teachers or just ok teachers, are going to be a speed bump to him. If he's not Harvard-bound, neither of them are going to make him so. He's clearly not a kid that NEEDS a certain structure or design to be successful.

If you're digging IB, just do it, it's not going to be a "mistake" as far as admissions goes as long as he finishes. Pick an IB diploma or a goal of 16 APs, whichever fits his temperament and lifestyle more, and get to work on the things that ACTUALLY will matter, the perfect SAT score and the baseball and the eye-popping extra-curriculars.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Having a kid seems like so much work.

Things were so much more simple back in the day #1998.

 

[FlashFSU]

Don't do IB.

Flash out.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

After reading this thread, I'm thinking I need to watch my soon-to-be high schooler. He's a very good student and a smart kid but is much more interested in sports and Xbox than academics. The thing that concerns me slightly is he exhibits some early characteristics of a CEO or a career criminal. Just not yet sure which.

“Smart kids” generally end up as middle managers or professionals (doctors, lawyers, vets, etc.). Nice and comfortable livings, but generally not much beyond that. The kids are taught to be “too conventional” to really splash the water out of the pool. The folks who really crush it generally take an unconventional path. So never take lightly the kid who quits school to start his own businesss, etc.

 

[Bartdog]

“Smart kids” generally end up as middle managers or professionals (doctors, lawyers, vets, etc.). Nice and comfortable livings, but generally not much beyond that. The kids are taught to be “too conventional” to really splash the water out of the pool. The folks who really crush it generally take an unconventional path. So never take lightly the kid who quits school to start his own businesss, etc.

Another way of saying this ( I think the same thing you're saying or similar) is to not neglect "emotional intelligence."

 

[Nole Lou]

“Smart kids” generally end up as middle managers or professionals (doctors, lawyers, vets, etc.). Nice and comfortable livings, but generally not much beyond that. The kids are taught to be “too conventional” to really splash the water out of the pool. The folks who really crush it generally take an unconventional path. So never take lightly the kid who quits school to start his own businesss, etc.

Eh, I think that's what people tell themselves.

The fact is, it's true that most smart kids top out there, because almost everyone tops out there. The billionaire self made person is too rare of an outcome despite any background to be the guide. I still would be surprised if the vast majority of those who "crush it" didn't go to college or get a decent education.

I'd say that "too conventional" thing is a myth, created by working backwards from a sample of people that already "made it" and trying to act like you can draw conclusions from that. If you start from the base size, of people that quit high school, tattoo their necks, skip college to live in a commune, join Phish on tour for their 20s, etc, it would paint a very different picture of the prospective outcomes of people who take the unconventional rout vs conventional.

HOWEVER...totally agree with your last sentence. On an individual basis, that doesn't mean that any given person doesn't have it figured out in a way that includes quitting college or an unconventional path.

But that's a side affect of a person that has a plan and the wherewithal to make it happen, not the cause of the success. You wouldn't say a 20 year old spending all his money and going into debt to by an $80k Mercedes is a good plan, because a lot of super successful people drive Mercedes.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

“Smart kids” generally end up as middle managers or professionals (doctors, lawyers, vets, etc.). Nice and comfortable livings, but generally not much beyond that. The kids are taught to be “too conventional” to really splash the water out of the pool. The folks who really crush it generally take an unconventional path. So never take lightly the kid who quits school to start his own businesss, etc.

I'm pretty sure wall street is full of smart kids who crushed it pretty conventionally.

Regardless of academic aptitude, at some point you plateau and require hustle, EQ, ambition, and some luck to continue upwards. If you have those characteristics and academic aptitude, all the better.
-----
The other conversation here is what we define as "smart kids", which in a society with increasing educational and income inequality, could be a pretty contentious subject. Many "smart kids" are left behind and wind up working in the Avis or Apple Store because their folks lived in the wrong school zone or couldn't afford a private education.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to correlate intelligence to outcomes due to the deterioration of public education. On average, two similarly "smart kids" with two dramatically different K-12 school qualities are likely to have vastly different career outcomes.