If you build it, they will drive..

[billanole]

meaning we can’t build our way out of increased congestion. 26 lanes in Houston isn’t enough.


https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/09/citylab-university-induced-demand/569455/


With 26 lanes at its widest point, the Katy Freeway in the Houston metro is the Mississippi River of car infrastructure. Its current girth, which by some measures makes it the widest freeway in North America, was the result of an expansion project that took place between 2008 and 2011 at a cost of $2.8 billion. The primary reason for this mega-project was to alleviate severe traffic congestion.

And yet, after the freeway was widened, congestion got worse. An analysis by Joe Cortright of City Observatory used data from Houston’s official traffic monitoring agency to find that travel times increased by 30 percent during the morning commute and 55 percent during the evening commute between 2011 and 2014. A local TV station found similar increases.

 

[billyfsu76]

I read a book a few years ago called Instant Fire about the history of Karachi, Pakistan as a modern city. There was a section concerning building more roads and widening existing routes that had been designed before there were so many automobiles. The consensus of almost any modern planner is that the construction of more roads / highways (or widening existing roads) is that it always results in more traffic, not less.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Do they account for increased demand because of population growth in the intervening years? I bet Houston added hundreds of thousands of residents between 2011 and 2014.

 

[billanole]

I read a book a few years ago called Instant Fire about the history of Karachi, Pakistan as a modern city. There was a section concerning building more roads and widening existing routes that had been designed before there were so many automobiles. The consensus of almost any modern planner is that the construction of more roads / highways (or widening existing roads) is that it always results in more traffic, not less.

Roads are very similar to storage closets in the first world. No matter how big they are, we always fill them up.
Roadway expansion often just offers more opportunity for congestion rather than relief from congestion.

 

[billanole]

Do they account for increased demand because of population growth in the intervening years? I bet Houston added hundreds of thousands of residents between 2011 and 2014.

I think about the recent thread where the poster was asking about where to move to in Atlanta. Much of the commentary was in regard to driving/commute times. Around places like those two, much of life is lived
looking out of a windshield. Several posters talked about using surface streets, living close to work/play/school needs, etc... as solutions that work.
What so many forget is that the interstate system came into being as a way to move the military quickly (think Cold War) as well as to facilitate travel between states...interstate travel. It has morphed more and more into federally assisted projects to deal with local traffic around urban centers.
Urban traffic issues should not be so reliant on interstates and more reliant on moving people in more locally based solutions.

 

[OrlandNole]

Great read. I'm actually working with TxDOT on a study to re-think the long term future of mobility in Houston.

 

[Nolomite]

Do they account for increased demand because of population growth in the intervening years? I bet Houston added hundreds of thousands of residents between 2011 and 2014.

Katy is about 30 miles west of Houston.

If JJ Watt misses another season due to injury, he'll probably fix this freeway mess.

 

[SeaPA]

No idea how things are in Houston, but in my area (central FL) it seems to me that part of the problem is that all of the feeder roads are built to encourage more development (i.e. they conveniently go to land owned by someone who ha$ political influence & want$ to develop $aid land). So as roads get built to "help alleviate traffic issues" they simply create more traffic.

 

[billyfsu76]

No idea how things are in Houston, but in my area (central FL) it seems to me that part of the problem is that all of the feeder roads are built to encourage more development (i.e. they conveniently go to land owned by someone who ha$ political influence & want$ to develop $aid land). So as roads get built to "help alleviate traffic issues" they simply create more traffic.

I live in Orlando too. While I'm centrally located and the new "I-4 Ultimate" plan that we're currently living under will do nothing but help me, I think the local folks missed an opportunity for the people who live in outer areas by not incorporating the Sunrail to the new roads. Right now, the Sunrail runs through 3 counties but only north and south. There's no way for residents to get into town on it who don't live along the line. Would have helped eased congestion in the decades to come if they had extended east and west into apopka / mount dora direction.

 

[billanole]

For years I drove through little towns/villages in the northeast that had heavy, slow moving traffic on older two lane roads. “Suffering” through the delays, my southern point of view wondered why they didn’t widen the roads and add lanes.
Then the wider roads began to appear and voila, traffic was still slow and backed up. Meanwhile, walking and bike riding routes were negatively impacted. Neighborhood interaction and the small town feel lessened. Out of town chain stores and influence increased.

Increased capacity, when appropriate to a specific situation can be helpful. Just adding lanes of pavement while impacting neighborhoods and traditional movement patterns, is not always a good answer.

At a local level, we were up in the Cashiers/Highlands area this week for work. Twisting, turning US Highway 64 is being dramatically altered up that way. Mountains are being cut away in order to straighten out curves and speed access into those high elevation areas from the east (Interstate 26 and the Asheville area). Whole communities are being altered and history wiped out (granted on a fairly small scale) in order to provide a higher volume of second home residents a quicker, safer ride to and fro. This is also designed to speed the daily migration up and down from those areas for the service workers who cannot afford to live there anymore.
Very soon after completion, the traffic will increase to fill the new capacity.

 

[fsu1jreed]

Another problem that it seems to me is that they build things for pretty much current conditions, instead of spending a little bit more money and building things for predicted conditions in 30+ years.

I think it's kind of purposeful to an extent because it means more update projects in the short-term.

 

[TripTych]

Induced Demand. Expanding capacity will never be the solution to vehicular transit.

 

[Nolomite]

Another problem that it seems to me is that they build things for pretty much current conditions, instead of spending a little bit more money and building things for predicted conditions in 30+ years.

I think it's kind of purposeful to an extent because it means more update projects in the short-term.

Politicians spending taxpayer money...you think you're going to get a long-term perspective out of them?

 

[billanole]

No idea how things are in Houston, but in my area (central FL) it seems to me that part of the problem is that all of the feeder roads are built to encourage more development (i.e. they conveniently go to land owned by someone who ha$ political influence & want$ to develop $aid land). So as roads get built to "help alleviate traffic issues" they simply create more traffic.

Don’t you have to eventually question who wants the development and then get to the point of opposition... This whole second home, vacation, move away from problems but bring them with you game will end badly.
Florida is not the place where I grew up anymore. The little towns and Old Florida are under direct assault from big money... oh, sounds like our political system (although I didn’t just post that).
Sea, I kinda know where you have grown up and really enjoyed being there with my old man in his time working and interacting with older family members in your area. Paradise under assault...

 

[FSU_UCLA]

Carmaggeddon, the RampJam, Carmageddon 2, the Rampture, etc. Having driven through the daily hell of the 405 in west LA through a series of massive expansion projects only to see traffic immediately increase to saturation every time, I am totally ready to support a tunnel, a hyperloop, every train and streetcar idea, electric scooters, etc. over adding lanes.

That being said, I do think that adding a second level to the freeways in a couple of major chokepoints would be awesome.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Katy is about 30 miles west of Houston.

If JJ Watt misses another season due to injury, he'll probably fix this freeway mess.

I was referring to the Houston metro area generally.

Not saying more roads are the best solution but tough to see a realistic alternative.

 

[billanole]

I was referring to the Houston metro area generally.

Not saying more roads are the best solution but tough to see a realistic alternative.

Can you see the way to build more roads and alleviate all of the complications that would create? (Right of way costs, construction and long term maintenance, relocation of those “in the way”, realization that more lanes mostly means more congestion) ...
More roads will not change things. Realization of that fact is a start.
Honestly, none of this discussion acknowledges the big ole elephant in the room. Is it hotter where you live this year compared to your childhood memories?

 

[billanole]

Carmaggeddon, the RampJam, Carmageddon 2, the Rampture, etc. Having driven through the daily hell of the 405 in west LA through a series of massive expansion projects only to see traffic immediately increase to saturation every time, I am totally ready to support a tunnel, a hyperloop, every train and streetcar idea, electric scooters, etc. over adding lanes.

That being said, I do think that adding a second level to the freeways in a couple of major chokepoints would be awesome.

Second level? Stack it high. Why not? No bigger footprint except for the on/off ramps it seems.
There is a stretch thru western Colorado that does just that on Interstate 70 (?) above/along a river.
This same concept along, for instance, Interstate 4 in central Florida could allow for rapid trans to cooperate with big roads. Same corridor, different methods. Allows for transition at certain points between transit types as well as intersecting with foot and bike traffic, Uber, buses, trams, etc... No need for more right of way, just more inclusive utilization.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Can you see the way to build more roads and alleviate all of the complications that would create? (Right of way costs, construction and long term maintenance, relocation of those “in the way”, realization that more lanes mostly means more congestion) ...
More roads will not change things. Realization of that fact is a start.
Honestly, none of this discussion acknowledges the big ole elephant in the room. Is it hotter where you live this year compared to your childhood memories?

No, don’t see a good solution. And you know what rail costs, right?
This isn’t a uniquely American problem though. Even with all the rail and public transportation in Europe the traffic there is every bit as bad as here.

The problem is the world population has more than doubled in the last 50 years.

 

[billanole]

No, don’t see a good solution. And you know what rail costs, right?
This isn’t a uniquely American problem though. Even with all the rail and public transportation in Europe the traffic there is every bit as bad as here.

The problem is the world population has more than doubled in the last 50 years.

Rail is more expensive up front, less so to maintain and operate. There are reasons that rail and buses are so typical in other nations.
Also, dramatic differences in exhaust and scheduling issues. Rail vs cars pollution can be dramatic if the rail is electric. Rail/buses vs cars is mostly a heavy lean away from cars for punctuality.

 

[coloradonoles]

I can remember a time when Katy was a LONG trip and people said "you better pack a lunch".

In Florida terms, it's like driving to Madison.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Mark me down in the public transportation column.

Give people more places to drive and they'll drive more.

 

[OrlandNole]

I flew into Atlanta this morning from Nashville and took MARTA to my office in Midtown. Left my house at about 4:15 AM for a 6 AM flight and was at my office by 9 AM local time, so about 3:45 total time door-to-door. Driving would have taken roughly 45 minutes longer.

 

[seminoledq]

I make a point to not drive on any highway that has to be described by its girth.

 

[funksouljon]

.........

At a local level, we were up in the Cashiers/Highlands area this week for work. Twisting, turning US Highway 64 is being dramatically altered up that way. Mountains are being cut away in order to straighten out curves and speed access into those high elevation areas from the east (Interstate 26 and the Asheville area). ......

Thats too bad, the roads and views in that area are great. Ive done many miles in the area.

Second level? Stack it high. Why not? No bigger footprint except for the on/off ramps it seems.
There is a stretch thru western Colorado that does just that on Interstate 70 (?) above/along a river.
.....

You are talking about the I-state just East of Glenwood Springs. Big difference in this area is they are stacked due to steep ravine and lesser cost than making the roads side by side. It isn't a flow issue at all. There are also only a couple on and off ramps in that area. These roads aren't stacked on top of each other, but offset on the slope.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I make a point to not drive on any highway that has to be described by its girth.

That’s what she said!