IT jobs and H1B visas

[GwinnettNole]

Hopefully this won't turn political as in lib vs cons.... but this topic is more about jobs.
Interesting... I like Trump on this.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/17/new...ark-zuckerberg-immigration/index.html?ref=yfp

Snippets:
Donald Trump has a new target for his criticism of the nation's immigration policies - Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg.

Trump said he wants to require employers to pay H-1B workers much more money, which he said would discourage companies from hiring them and boost job prospects for Americans. He also wants to have tech jobs offered to unemployed Americans before they can be filled by workers with H-1B visas.
"This will improve the number of black, Hispanic and female workers in Silicon Valley who have been passed over in favor of the H-1B program. Mark Zuckerberg's personal Senator, Marco Rubio, has a bill to triple H-1Bs that would decimate women and minorities," Trump wrote in his immigration plan. Rubio is also seeking the Republican nomination for president.

 

[GwinnettNole]

There is no labor shortage.... it's about just bringing over H1B folks to do the jobs for a fraction of the cost.

 

[nynole1]

1. Its definitely cheaper to bring over H1-b's to do the work.
2. American kids don't want to go to school to study CS and Mathematics the way foreign kids do.
3. Indian agencies routinely fleece American companies and go relatively unpunished.

 

[GwinnettNole]

1. Its definitely cheaper to bring over H1-b's to do the work.
2. American kids don't want to go to school to study CS and Mathematics the way foreign kids do.
3. Indian agencies routinely fleece American companies and go relatively unpunished.

Number 2 is not true. I used to think the same thing until I did some research. The offshoring of the jobs is what is driving US kids away from the STEM fields.

The US has been a leader in tech development for years--- all of a sudden we don't have those skills? Laughable. The cheap labor is what is the game changer. I've seen a good number of offshoring fail so.... Trump has this one right.

 

[WPBMIKEY]

My experience with H1B1 is you get what you pay for. These candidates also lie like MFrs on thier resume too, and if you do a phone screen interview listen closely for a clicking keyboard as they Google answers to your questions.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Oh man. I manage software testing for a large corporation here in the U.S. All of our testers used to be in the U.S. They were all let go and the company contracted the jobs to India. First with one vendor and now with another. It was based on cost and the dog and pony show those companies put on in their sales pitch. I get annoyed almost daily with a tester not understanding English and not having the sense of urgency needed to meet deadlines and really not grasping pretty simple concepts even when explained multiple times. I have a minority that are awesome and have a great understanding and sense of urgency when needed. So many of them have masters degrees and may very well be book smart geniuses, but their work ethic and quality of work in my experience is sub par. And the vendor sold that they can speak and understand written and spoken English and quite frankly many of them can not understand spoken English so they want it sent to them in writing. And for urgent requests this is too time consuming.

Oh and then explaining to some of the developers why something is not right gets really frustrating because many times they don't understand the polices and procedures and products the software is being used to support. Oh and their leadership knows they get paid by the hour so they will not work as fast as they can to increase their FTE to get more money. I have like 3 out of 20 of them that are awesome. The others not so much. If the testers were in the U.S. that ratio is usually reversed.

 

[seminole97]

There is no labor shortage.... it's about just bringing over H1B folks to do the jobs for a fraction of the cost.

The article you linked states, "The unemployment rate for STEM graduates was about 3% in 2012, according to the Census, when the overall unemployment rate was 8%."

I think that 3% unemployment suggests a very tight labor market.
But I don't disagree with you that price is an issue. Question is, if H1Bs are restricted, do more companies follow Trump and move the jobs offshore to where the labor is better priced?

 

[GwinnettNole]

The article you linked states, "The unemployment rate for STEM graduates was about 3% in 2012, according to the Census, when the overall unemployment rate was 8%."

I think that 3% unemployment suggests a very tight labor market.
But I don't disagree with you that price is an issue. Question is, if H1Bs are restricted, do more companies follow Trump and move the jobs offshore to where the labor is better priced?

The point I was making about no labor shortage is more American kids would go into IT if they weren't threatened by offshoring. See the other posts here-- offshoring an entire dept to India... Kids read this and become wary of going into STEM.

To your question-- that would be an interesting reaction to the restriction. I'm not so sure--- what do your guys think? Apple, Google and MS headquartered in Bangladesh?!?!?!

 

[ZZ828]

I have to agree with the point about lack of urgency. I work with them on a daily basis, and there seems to be no concept of getting things done when they need to be done. I think the main reason comes from something else I have noticed.

If I do not give them specific step by step directions on what needs to be done, there is no understanding. No thinking outside the box or thinking for themselves. There have been many times where my co-workers or myself could have gotten a task done in the time it has taken us to type up or explain specifically what we need done. Then half the time it is still not done correctly. If even one little detail is left out, the whole thing comes crashing down. It's very frustrating, but you get what you pay for.

 

[seminole97]

To your question-- that would be an interesting reaction to the restriction. I'm not so sure--- what do your guys think? Apple, Google and MS headquartered in Bangladesh?!?!?!

The jobs, not the HQ.
Apple is still HQed in California, but they're not making their phones in California.
A lot of IT work lends itself to outsourcing. Please understand I'm trying to keep this in the realm of economics, but every regulation and its associated costs that the government adds to employing an American makes offshoring the outsourcing more attractive.

15 years ago when I was helping the Florida Child Protection Teams create a new data system to track their ability to meet legislative requirements I was brought on board because the internal efforts to develop the application had gotten basically nowhere in over a year. A Florida based company was hired to do the work. The guy responsible for the migration of data from the existing system was American, but the programmer who created the new website was Brazilian. Otavio was AWESOME. He banged out the site in less than 5 weeks. Every time I called him with a bug (and there were few) he had the development site patched within an hour for me to test. My biggest slowdown was the DOH change management only met weekly, so I had to wait until then to move the patches to production (unless we could demonstrate it was creating data corruption, and thereby an emergency). All of our interaction in person could be done with video conferencing today if Trump kept him in Brazil. That's my point.

Sticking with the economics, if Trump succeeds in getting in place the kind of tariffs he's talking about it's just going to result in reduced standards of living for the middle and lower class because it will raise their cost of goods. Protectionism helps the few at the expense of the many.
Manufacturing as an employment sector is going the way of agriculture for the same reason - ever increasing application of capital goods. My cousin started his career at Briggs and Stratton. In the beginning he was busting the casting tits off of finished molds and filing them to spec. No he oversees an army of robots doing similar things. He told me the first two or so hours of his shift is calibrating, etc. And then he sits down with a book or a crossword for the last 6 hours and waits to see if a red light comes on. If it does he fixes the troubled bot and goes back to his book. One person is now responsible for much more production, but this isn't a negative. It frees up labor to meet other needs. We couldn't have the world we have today if 90% of us were still on the farm.

 

[nynole1]

I can only base my comments about American kids not wanting to do those disciplines on my own experience as an IT recruiter over the past 13 years. I don't know what the research shows, but in my area of NY, I see many more foreign kids than Americans come through my doors looking for IT jobs.

 

[Finance85]

I agree with most of the sentiment expressed so far. I'm in the IT field, so...

1) Competition for jobs is fierce in India. As a result, programmers do exactly as they are told, no more, no less.
2) Because competition is so fierce, they have to embellish their resumes to stand out.
3) Because competition is so fierce, they have to CYA all the time, which means lying if necessary.
4) I'm sitting next to a guy right now from India. We've talked extensively, and education is not equivalent. In India, the focus is on work skills, with very little focus on history, the arts, physical education, etc. Generally speaking (but not always), they spend less time in school to get the same credentials. Think ITT Tech compared to GA Tech.
5) It's true, many programmers will rely on their friends to help them out because they've oversold their ability.
6) In my experience, there's a lot more rework that has to be done when using offshore developers, plus associated retesting, etc., so there's little cost savings if any in the end.

To me, it's like Stephen A Smith at ESPN, or even Finebaum. If you can convince people you're an expert, then you're an expert, no matter what skills you really bring to the table.

 

[seminole97]

To me, it's like Stephen A Smith at ESPN, or even Finebaum. If you can convince people you're an expert, then you're an expert, no matter what skills you really bring to the table.

While I'm sure you can BS the boss for a while, you can't 'fake' making a web server deliver webpages the way you can BS your way through a blue book exam.
It either works, or it doesn't.
There is a lot about the IT field that appeals to my INTJ personality type.

 

[Finance85]

While I'm sure you can BS the boss for a while, you can't 'fake' making a web server deliver webpages the way you can BS your way through a blue book exam.
It either works, or it doesn't.
There is a lot about the IT field that appeals to my INTJ personality type.

A lot of these guys work remote, so they can rely on their buddies when they get in a jam. Even the guys working in a cubicle find ways to do that.

 

[GwinnettNole]

I can only base my comments about American kids not wanting to do those disciplines on my own experience as an IT recruiter over the past 13 years. I don't know what the research shows, but in my area of NY, I see many more foreign kids than Americans come through my doors looking for IT jobs.

I know what you are saying and I was of the same mindset years ago. Until I read more and more articles and did research on why American kids are not majoring in STEM fields did it really dawn on me with what is going on. So, in one essense you are correct in saying you are probably only seeing H1B/ India guys..... but the reason American kids are not going into STEM has much more to do with offshoring than lack of interst in the field of study. The world is a tech magnet nowadays-- and kids are more tech savvy than ever before. But when an American kid is warned of the offshore issues many of them change majors and never go into STEM. I can't say I blame them.

Then there are the already well established 10-20 year IT pro that is threatened because of the same thing-- offshoring or even onshoring. These people come to the US at a fraction of the cost that an American worker would want-- thus the companies say "we need more Visas"... It's ridicuolous. There is no shortage. It's a never ending cycle.... Trump gets it....

 

[seminole97]

A lot of these guys work remote, so they can rely on their buddies when they get in a jam. Even the guys working in a cubicle find ways to do that.

But if I pay you to keep the web server feeding pages to the public, and you have to phone a friend or hit Google to find the answer, that aspect doesn't really matter to me as long as you get to the answer and get the web server running. I'm paying for the results you get, not necessarily how you get them, right?

 

[Finance85]

But if I pay you to keep the web server feeding pages to the public, and you have to phone a friend or hit Google to find the answer, that aspect doesn't really matter to me as long as you get to the answer and get the web server running. I'm paying for the results you get, not necessarily how you get them, right?

Some people pay for results. Some people pay for timely results. It usually falls apart at some point, like when there's some mistake that needs to be corrected immediately, and the employee either can't take care of it himself, or when the employee can't translate / convey the requirement properly to his helper.

 

[ShaolinNole]

I've worked in early stage and funded tech companies in NYC for over a decade. I've never paid H1B's less than the market rate, usually at the 75th percentile. Good people have many employment options. There are also prevailing wage requirements. H1B's have actually more expensive, especially when you include the costs of immigration. You also generally find people that can do the technical work without effing up. Will you get strategy or creativity? Mostly not. But, would you get that by hiring unemployed or marginal people into tech roles? Almost decidedly not.

 

[surfnole]

I've worked in early stage and funded tech companies in NYC for over a decade. I've never paid H1B's less than the market rate, usually at the 75th percentile. Good people have many employment options. There are also prevailing wage requirements. H1B's have actually more expensive, especially when you include the costs of immigration. You also generally find people that can do the technical work without effing up. Will you get strategy or creativity? Mostly not. But, would you get that by hiring unemployed or marginal people into tech roles? Almost decidedly not.

I've worked with contractors from Tata, Infosys etc at large American Corporations. They are "straight off the boat" from India making an Indian salary while living in Atlanta. They had per diem to pay for their living expenses.

Following are the top 5 H1-B sponsors. I'm all for google, facebook etc getting top talent, but H1-Bs should not go to Indian companies. I've also seen one of my old companies, Cap Gemini, effectively abuse H1-B employees. All the American's quit the crappy project, the the Indians couldn't because they were H1-B and would lose their sponsor / need to start over.

I've seen a lot of H1-Bs do rote testing where all they needed to do was follow a test plan and record the results.

16K Visas for Tata, 7K for Wipro and 6K for Tata. Oh wait..there's IBM at number 4! We need to bring the Sergey Brins into this country, not Indian consultants.

1 Infosys 16,397 $75,154
2 Wipro 7,178 $76,920
3 Tata Consultancy Services 6,732 $64,350
4 IBM 6,502 $83,883
5 Deloitte Consulting 4,727 $98,264

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

 

[nynole1]

I know what you are saying and I was of the same mindset years ago. Until I read more and more articles and did research on why American kids are not majoring in STEM fields did it really dawn on me with what is going on. So, in one essense you are correct in saying you are probably only seeing H1B/ India guys..... but the reason American kids are not going into STEM has much more to do with offshoring than lack of interst in the field of study. The world is a tech magnet nowadays-- and kids are more tech savvy than ever before. But when an American kid is warned of the offshore issues many of them change majors and never go into STEM. I can't say I blame them.

Then there are the already well established 10-20 year IT pro that is threatened because of the same thing-- offshoring or even onshoring. These people come to the US at a fraction of the cost that an American worker would want-- thus the companies say "we need more Visas"... It's ridicuolous. There is no shortage. It's a never ending cycle.... Trump gets it....

Not trying to be a smart ass, but who is doing this?

 

[nynole1]

***Shameless plug*** If any of you IT guys are ever looking to hire, I would love to help!

 

[YogiNole]

I can't speak for other "IT" fields but unemployment in software development is less than 2% and if you talk to recruiters, which I do frequently, they'll claim unemployment is almost non-existent. There are far more open positions than available talents and this is in spite of abundance of H1Bs. Companies (big tech and startups) in Silicon Valley and all over the country have a ton of open positions.
It's entirely possible for someone to lose their job to be replaced by an outsourced worker but this individual should be able to find employment within days. If they don't, it's not for lack of jobs

 

[nynole1]

I can't speak for other "IT" fields but unemployment in software development is less than 2% and if you talk to recruiters, which I do frequently, they'll claim unemployment is almost non-existent. There are far more open positions than available talents and this is in spite of abundance of H1Bs. Companies (big tech and startups) in Silicon Valley and all over the country have a ton of open positions.
It's entirely possible for someone to lose their job to be replaced by an outsourced worker but this individual should be able to find employment within days. If they don't, it's not for lack of jobs

As a recruiter, I can tell you that this is true. Finding a native American IT person is much more difficult, but if you do find one, its a race to get them a job before someone else does.

 

[surfnole]

I can't speak for other "IT" fields but unemployment in software development is less than 2% and if you talk to recruiters, which I do frequently, they'll claim unemployment is almost non-existent. There are far more open positions than available talents and this is in spite of abundance of H1Bs. Companies (big tech and startups) in Silicon Valley and all over the country have a ton of open positions.
It's entirely possible for someone to lose their job to be replaced by an outsourced worker but this individual should be able to find employment within days. If they don't, it's not for lack of jobs

Not true in Florida. My developer friend is now selling pools after his most recently layoff.

 

[YogiNole]

Not true in Florida. My developer friend is now selling pools after his most recently layoff.

Your story is anecdotal. I'm talking of the larger industry trend. It could also be a local thing. Space Coast, for instance, took a bigger hit but this has to do more with cutbacks than H1B visas. By comparison, if you're a semi-decent .NET developer in Orlando (where I am), you'll get snatched up pretty quickly.

 

[LT4PLY]

Not true in Florida. My developer friend is now selling pools after his most recently layoff.

I get about 10 calls per week and I'm not actively looking. There are a metric crap ton of .NET jobs out there.

Regarding the ESL programmers. It's gotten really bad with the outsourcing as it is. I worked for a Tallahassee company that has subsidiary company in India and they don't advertise it. As a lead, if you didn't tow the line and use the indian company then you would get canned. If you did use it then you had to redo all the code by working long hours. The reason is they would bill 110 an hour to the client, turn around and pay 35 an hour to the subsidiary. Then they would make a profit on that 35 as well. So they were making around 80-85 bucks an hour off this model. In many cases they even had the gigantic balls to outsource the stuff... have it sent back, then have a local programmer fix it and bill them for fixing it too.

I towed the company line and it was asinine. The shop was on a garbage filled dirt road over there. The internet was horrible. you couldn't understand them because I swear they were using magic jack for VoIP. The code they checked in was a dumpster fire.

 

[West Duval Nole]

As a recruiter, I can tell you that this is true. Finding a native American IT person is much more difficult, but if you do find one, its a race to get them a job before someone else does.

I must say I have never worked with a NAtive American IT person that I know of. However, there are tons of Indian developers I have worked with.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Good to hear. Or I guess maybe not so good to hear that there are many others that have the same not so good experience with the cheap labor outsourcing in India. Yet companies continue to use that model all to save money with a degraded quality. Yet the Sr. Managers all promote it as a success because they do not want it to look like they are failures, so they cover up the poor quality.

 

[nynole1]

I must say I have never worked with a NAtive American IT person that I know of. However, there are tons of Indian developers I have worked with.

Come on man, I made that lower case on purpose! lol

A lot of it has to do with skillset: tons of Java, .Net, LAMP developer positions, but if you are a FoxPro, COBOL, etc. developer, you will struggle in many cases to find work.

 

[surfnole]

Your story is anecdotal. I'm talking of the larger industry trend. It could also be a local thing. Space Coast, for instance, took a bigger hit but this has to do more with cutbacks than H1B visas. By comparison, if you're a semi-decent .NET developer in Orlando (where I am), you'll get snatched up pretty quickly.

Anecdotal yes. I agree that there are tons of jobs in the Bay area, DC and probably NYC. However I have an opening right now and I have probably 50 applications with about 1/3 of those qualified. Perhaps there is a shortage of well paying jobs in Florida. My company doesn't pay great, but nobody is leaving because there are other benefits, and we have all the latest tech.

What can a .NET developer make in Orlando anyway?

 

[YogiNole]

Anecdotal yes. I agree that there are tons of jobs in the Bay area, DC and probably NYC. However I have an opening right now and I have probably 50 applications with about 1/3 of those qualified. Perhaps there is a shortage of well paying jobs in Florida. My company doesn't pay great, but nobody is leaving because there are other benefits, and we have all the latest tech.

What can a .NET developer make in Orlando anyway?

Agreed. Just because someone can code doesn't mean they're good at it.

As for .Net devs, it's all over the place I know people doing $50k/year to $150/hour. Just depends on experience, skill sets and marketing of self. One thing for sure, if you're willing to work there's no shortage of jobs

 

[WPBMIKEY]

COBOL programming is seeing a resurgence and it's high dollar work. Lots of mainframes still out there and they don't even teach COBOL in most miss programs these days. The bulk of COBOL programmers who have a lot of experience are retired. Simple supply/demand

 

[surfnole]

COBOL programming is seeing a resurgence and it's high dollar work. Lots of mainframes still out there and they don't even teach COBOL in most miss programs these days. The bulk of COBOL programmers who have a lot of experience are retired. Simple supply/demand

COBOL...Maybe there is a future for me! I spent my first five years doing Cobol/DB2/CICS/JCL. Good to know if I am in a bind one day. It really is a good language for its purpose. I can't think of many worse jobs than being a maintenance programmer though....but if I need a paycheck, I will consider.

 

[seminole97]

"American technology workers won a big victory in the federal courts this month. The D.C. District Court ruled that a STEM-related visa program created by the Department of Homeland Security was potentially damaging to the domestic labor market and also in violation of federal rule-making procedure. For the plaintiffs in the case, the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, however, the fight against BigTech lobbyists and Homeland Security has only just begun.

DHS’s so-called Optional Practical Training (OPT) program allows foreign nationals to live and work in the U.S. on a student visa even after graduation. In a rule promulgated by DHS in 2008, foreigners graduating in a STEM field at a U.S. school had these authorizations extended to nearly two and a half years after their graduation. U.S. employers love this because, on top of the longer work period, they have a greater chance to transition them into the H-1B program, a “professional specialty worker” visa that can last up to an additional six years. Also, employers receive a tax benefit for hiring OPT participants over Americans, as they do not have to pay Medicare and Social Security taxes for aliens on student visas."

link

FICA taxes are over 15% of wages.