Vacation/Paid Time Off

[BelemNole]

I'm negotiating with a company for a position right now. They are a very young company and while they want to hire me, everything seems to be a battle with them. The craziest seems to be vacation/PTO. I'm 45 with kids. I've been working for 20+ years. I told them I didn't want to hear anything about the standard two weeks vacation. So what did I get today in my offer? Less salary than I told them I wanted.... and two weeks vacation. They told me that two weeks vacation was already double what everyone else got. Are there really places that offer less than two weeks? Who in the world would take that crap?
As much as I'm ready to jump ship I just don't think I can deal with this amateur hour show.

 

[SoddyNole]

Don't leave mad, just leave.

 

[BelemNole]

Yeah, I've been trying to give them the benefit of the doubt because I really want to leave my current job but...

 

[GwinnettNole]

I'm negotiating with a company for a position right now. They are a very young company and while they want to hire me, everything seems to be a battle with them. The craziest seems to be vacation/PTO. I'm 45 with kids. I've been working for 20+ years. I told them I didn't want to hear anything about the standard two weeks vacation. So what did I get today in my offer? Less salary than I told them I wanted.... and two weeks vacation. They told me that two weeks vacation was already double what everyone else got. Are there really places that offer less than two weeks? Who in the world would take that crap?
As much as I'm ready to jump ship I just don't think I can deal with this amateur hour show.

We are in similar situations. Didn't you get this job not long ago? Maybe two years ago or less?

Anyway I'm 41 and I hate my job too. I like the field still (in IT) but have had enough. PTO days are huge... I don't know how anyone can be happy with two weeks of PTO for an entire year. But I guess we all did it early in our careers. I would take less pay for more days off. I would negotiate for 15 days off. We deserve it....ha.

The benefit I have is I'm trying to transfer to a company under the larger umbrella organization that I'm in now. I should be able to carry over my days.

Good luck.

 

[HulaNole]

Is this the place?

 

[ShaolinNole]

If this is the way they treat you when they are courting you, then I'd be really worried how they would treat you once there.

 

[BelemNole]

Yes, I've been at the current job about 20 months - good memory. I was recruited by a guy who came over to try to repair the reputation of this place by hiring a core of solid folks and trying to change the culture. Well....he was forced out about 5 months ago. Seems that most of the directors were fine with shoddy work and a culture of unethical/illegal activities and change was just too hard! So those of us he brought on are now looking to get out.
I'm torn with this new offer. I really want out, but they really have bungled this whole process and it makes me think that they are probably running a real sh@#-show over there. On the other hand, it's the chance to build a department from again in a new company, which is always fun.

 

[West Duval Nole]

We are in similar situations. Didn't you get this job not long ago? Maybe two years ago or less?

Anyway I'm 41 and I hate my job too. I like the field still (in IT) but have had enough. PTO days are huge... I don't know how anyone can be happy with two weeks of PTO for an entire year. But I guess we all did it early in our careers. I would take less pay for more days off. I would negotiate for 15 days off. We deserve it....ha.

The benefit I have is I'm trying to transfer to a company under the larger umbrella organization that I'm in now. I should be able to carry over my days.

Good luck.

I have been with my company for 20 years this June. I don't hate my job but primarily because I got it made. Working from home 4 days a week and my PTO with floating holidays is close to 8 weeks. I could go to another company and make a little more but would have to start from scratch again, go into the office everyday at least to start with and probably only get 2 weeks PTO. For me to jump, I would have to get substantially more to make it worth it.

If I was OP, I would I probably talk to someone and ask if there was any room for negotiation on the offer and spell out what I wanted and if they couldn't do it, then I would politely decline.

I declined an internal promotion at my work awhile back ago because I was going to have to go in office everyday. I don't live that close to the office and the minimal raise they were offering would not have covered the extra gas it cost me to go in office. I countered for a bigger raise. They said they couldn't so I declined. Thankfully a month later I got another position I posted for at the same level and they allowed me to keep my 4 day work from home schedule.

 

[ShaolinNole]

Belem- How are you going to build a quality department with quality people if they are going to nickle and dime every candidate you try to bring in?

 

[BelemNole]

Belem- How are you going to build a quality department with quality people if they are going to nickle and dime every candidate you try to bring in?

Good point.

I forgot to mention the biggest upside to the place - it's two miles from my house. For the first time in a dozen years I wouldn't have a 40-60 minute commute each way.

 

[timenole]

I used to run an old small family business and it was always a challenge to bring in new talent. I had employees who were with the company for 10 to 25 years and earned their time off. When I hired a new employee, I'd pay them fairly according to their value, but I'd always offer the same PTO benefits as all other employees had earned. Salary was confidential and may equal the pay to employees who had been with us for many years, but PTO is earned with loyalty.

 

[DanC78]

One thing I love about my current company...no vacation policy. We can take as much time off as we like as long as we are hitting our targets.

 

[GwinnettNole]

One thing I love about my current company...no vacation policy. We can take as much time off as we like as long as we are hitting our targets.

Sales seems like it's apples to oranges when trying to compare the intangibles to a lot of other professions. I hand it to you I know you guys are under a lot of pressure.

 

[ohio#1nolefan]

I work around a contractor of ours that actually offers no vacation.They pay about $40/hr and a lot of them work 4 10's-M-Thurs.The company also puts an addt'l 20% of their gross into some kind of retirement annuity and they have free health ins.
Downside is they don't work in nasty weather i.e rain,extreme cold,etc. therefore no pay.

 

[NDallasRuss]

Belem - That seems really low to me, and it'd be enough for me to look for somewhere else. The two mile commute is great, but if you have to drive there for 50 of the 52 weeks in a year, it's less of a selling point than having more time off for your "work/life balance". That, combined with the low-ball salary, should give you a lot of reason to re-evaluate whether that's a place you're going to be happy. As was said above, if that's how they're going to treat you while they're courting you, it might be downhill once you're on board.

My wife's last job was really crappy - one week vacation after a year of working there - but they were a tiny little company and probably couldn't function well if everyone were off more. Still, she's not there any more. By comparison, I started my current job with 25 days of PTO each year.

 

[DanC78]

Sales seems like it's apples to oranges when trying to compare the intangibles to a lot of other professions. I hand it to you I know you guys are under a lot of pressure.

You know, I appreciate you saying that. The highs and lows and stress of this career choice is like no other. I question my decision for going this route more often than I probably should. At the same time I feel fortunate and blessed the way things always seem to work themselves.

Hard to explain.

 

[fsu1jreed]

I'm right at 20 days/year, 3 days floating, and 15 holiday. There are some guys here that are getting 5+ days/month.

 

[SeaPA]

Another consideration is that a five minute commute vs an hour commute is a whole lot of additional time off over the course of a work year, especially when you consider the things you surely miss out on with your kids

 

[F4Gary]

How much..ahem..sick time would you get, wink, wink.

 

[BelemNole]

I used to run an old small family business and it was always a challenge to bring in new talent. I had employees who were with the company for 10 to 25 years and earned their time off. When I hired a new employee, I'd pay them fairly according to their value, but I'd always offer the same PTO benefits as all other employees had earned. Salary was confidential and may equal the pay to employees who had been with us for many years, but PTO is earned with loyalty.

It would be one thing if they were offering me decent salary - but they asked for my bottom number and then went below that. The reason I felt ok asking for the extra leave was due to the low salary and lousy benefit package. They should give on something.
Right now I'm leaning towards telling them no - it feels more like buying a used car than negotiating a salary.

 

[HulaNole]

They already taunted you a second time (first salary, then PTO). Cool armor though.

All joking aside, hope it all works out with what's good for you and your family.

 

[goldmom]

When I started with my company 11 years ago I had no vacation the first year and just had the paid holidays.
Next year went on the two weeks and now have three plus 12 holidays.
Funny thing is I have yet to take two weeks and definitely won't take the three. I have something like 70 days accrued but will lose almost half of them on my employment anniversary. The fact is I am pretty much a workaholic. I only WISH I could make myself take that much time off.

 

[ZZ828]

Personally I would not go to any company that offered less than three weeks of vacation. I am a firm believer in taking time off to recharge, and I think it makes for a more productive employee.

I have been with my current company for 10 years, and I have 20 days of vacation.

While I am happy where I am, over the past couple years I have taken a look at some other things. In every case the starting vacation time was at least three weeks.

 

[BelemNole]

When I started with my company 11 years ago I had no vacation the first year and just had the paid holidays.
Next year went on the two weeks and now have three plus 12 holidays.
Funny thing is I have yet to take two weeks and definitely won't take the three. I have something like 70 days accrued but will lose almost half of them on my employment anniversary. The fact is I am pretty much a workaholic. I only WISH I could make myself take that much time off.

Well, your kids are a bit older than mine

 

[cmanole]

I'm negotiating with a company for a position right now. They are a very young company and while they want to hire me, everything seems to be a battle with them. The craziest seems to be vacation/PTO. I'm 45 with kids. I've been working for 20+ years. I told them I didn't want to hear anything about the standard two weeks vacation. So what did I get today in my offer? Less salary than I told them I wanted.... and two weeks vacation. They told me that two weeks vacation was already double what everyone else got. Are there really places that offer less than two weeks? Who in the world would take that crap?
As much as I'm ready to jump ship I just don't think I can deal with this amateur hour show.

It's called a negotiation. Hopefully you told them a little more than you wanted. Go back with your terms or walk. Me, I'd be leary about working for a company that had such disregard for it's employees. One week off really? Not to mention your pension. Do you have a pension plan with the company you work for now? The new company?

 

[VirginiaNole]

Need more info. What are your other benefits?

In my company, for the field people when you start I give you 10 days PTO to be accrued every pay check after 60 days. You use it for whatever, vacation, sick etc. After five years you get 15 days. For the licensed upper management folks I start them at 15 days PTO after 60 days. Everyone gets their health care paid for 100% and you get the standard/reasonable paid holidays. We generally close for 2 weeks during the holidays, depending on where the days fall on the calendar, I pay for most of those days but your expected to use a couple of days of your PTO.

This policy has evolved over the 15 years I have been in business. On thing you need to keep in mind, you said this was a start up/young company. These folks are probably trying to keep overhead under control and trying to get the best people they can for a reasonable cost. Take it for what it is, weigh the pros/cons. Make a counter offer and make your decision.

Good luck.

 

[LT4PLY]

It's generally fair to get only 2 weeks the first year then bump you to what a normal Sr. level person would get after that. I get 3 now... I think my sweet spot would be 4 so we could do more fun stuff with the kids and have a vacation every year without the kids. I do sometimes miss working for the State when I got a metric crap ton of time. I never miss the salary from the state though. To many companies the vacation is factored into the salary and they only see the straight money behind it. Good companies understand that vacations end up netting more work done in the end and happier employees.

Europe is WAY ahead of the US on this. A college friend works for Adidas in Germany and gets 8+ weeks.

 

[goldmom]

Belem's tired insult about my age aside, I do see generational differences at work in this thread.
Baby Boomers are most accustomed to falling in line with the two/three weeks scenario, and younger workers find more time off as a requisite perk. It was what their Dad had, after all, and Dad and Mom taught us about how lucky we were to have two whole weeks off in summer to pile in the wagon with camping gear on top or pulled behind and take off for wherever, hearing about how THEY had hard times in the Depression.
If we take the European model of time off we can also settle for their stagnant economy. Do we want that? Oh wait. We're almost there already.

 

[More Kirk Less Spock]

seems like 2 weeks would be a minimum. My firm hired me (and everyone else in my position) with about 20 days off a year. The trick is, however, I usually can't take all that time or the biz will suffer. Last year finished with 8 days in the bank> the days, of course, do not roll over.

 

[cmanole]

If we take the European model of time off we can also settle for their stagnant economy. Do we want that? Oh wait. We're almost there already.

Not true. I get almost six weeks where I work and I'm one of the most junior people. That's a personal and sick leave. I think because we're treated so well we work harder...

 

[MIKE_G]

I have the opposite problem. I get six weeks pto plus another 8 days. This year is my 20th anniversary and I get to take an additional two weeks for personal recognition. None of this transfers from one year to the next. I realize it's a nice problem to have, but in practical terms it's not easy to project when to use all this time.

 

[DanC78]

Belem's tired insult about my age aside, I do see generational differences at work in this thread.
Baby Boomers are most accustomed to falling in line with the two/three weeks scenario, and younger workers find more time off as a requisite perk. It was what their Dad had, after all, and Dad and Mom taught us about how lucky we were to have two whole weeks off in summer to pile in the wagon with camping gear on top or pulled behind and take off for wherever, hearing about how THEY had hard times in the Depression.
If we take the European model of time off we can also settle for their stagnant economy. Do we want that? Oh wait. We're almost there already.

My dad (baby boomer) works more hours than anyone I have ever met. Goes in anywhere between 7 or 9am and stays till 6 or 9pm. 40 years of that is awfully impressive. He does take time off when needed, but complains the whole time he's always that needs to get back and take calls ect.

Here is the things though. I worked with my dad for 2 years and he spends half his day trying to get his computer working right for him, whether it's Word, email, a spread sheet, or something.

I now know that I work equally as hard as he does, just much much more efficient. I'll jam out 2 emails while taking a dump....he'll be waiting on his computer to warm up with his 5000 windows running on his desktop.

Anyhow...I learned that is a difference between my generation and baby boomers as well. We have adapted to technology better and have become accustomed to communicating with short to the point messaging.

What we have lost that my dad has not is the art of relationship building. My generation is a little more selfish...a "what's in it for me" thought process. My Dad, not so much. He makes his money and won't be screwed over, but is never worried about am I working more or less than the guy next to me, or who has more time off....me or him.

No one generation is right or wrong here...just observations I have picked up through my dad, coworkers, and clients I have that are baby boomers.

 

[tolkien1]

I thought long and hard about a job change this Fall and Winter. Different subject area though same general field. The pay bump would have been $7,500 and a slightly better retirement package and much better health care. But, the paid time off was 2 weeks compared to 5 where I am now. I turned it down in part because of the PTO difference. At 50 years old and with 23 years in this career, I just don't want to go back to two weeks off if I can avoid it. I stayed and my current employer gave me a very nice pay raise.

 

[Bobcat07]

I've been at 3 companies since graduating 8 years ago and they've all been about the same on PTO time. Pretty much 2 weeks for the first 5 years, 3 weeks from 6-10 and then 4 weeks for 10+ years. I'm at a Corporate Retail office now and we only get 6 company holidays as well since they think we should be open if the stores are open.

It does get tiring working that much, but my current boss allows flex scheduling with either every other Friday off or 1/2 day every Friday. She also told me that I shouldn't be afraid to ask if I need to take a few extra days off. So while this sounds like not a lot it is better than past companies I've worked at.

 

[LT4PLY]

Belem's tired insult about my age aside, I do see generational differences at work in this thread.
Baby Boomers are most accustomed to falling in line with the two/three weeks scenario, and younger workers find more time off as a requisite perk. It was what their Dad had, after all, and Dad and Mom taught us about how lucky we were to have two whole weeks off in summer to pile in the wagon with camping gear on top or pulled behind and take off for wherever, hearing about how THEY had hard times in the Depression.
If we take the European model of time off we can also settle for their stagnant economy. Do we want that? Oh wait. We're almost there already.

Our economy is not like it used to be where the average joe can truly make a good living and have the wife stay home. The 2-3 week scenario worked then because you were truly off for vacation. Since salaries have not kept up and times have changed we are seeing either single parents or both parents working. This means vacations turn into time around the holidays to get stuff done and hang with the kids while they aren't in school. To put this in perspective... back in 1967 you could pick up a brand new Corvette for just a bit over 4 grand. The average household salary was over 7 grand. The average home was just 20k (right around 2.7 times the average income). Fast forward to 2013... Average household income is just over 50k. A new Vette would have set you back 50k and the average house was over 300 grand. This means that back in the day the average joe's house was less than 3x your salary but today it's nearly 6x that same average joe's salary.

And calling Europe's economy stagnant is a bit of a joke when the Euro is stronger than the dollar and the US in recent years has looked to Germany as the model economy to strive for. And yes, I am ignoring Greece... LOL

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

All jobs are different. I've found the higher up you get, the less "vacation time" actually matters because the job is 24/7 anyway. I get three weeks a year plus holidays but never, ever take it all. And it seems like I work at least a couple hours or more on vacation days that I do take. I have canceled several scheduled vacations at the last minute due to work matters.

On the flip side, I have complete control of my day-to-day schedule and if it's a light day I have no issues taking the day off if I want. It all evens out. HR would never say anything and if they did I'd just ignore them or tell them to get lost.

I wouldn't expect a small company to vary their policies too much as they have all sorts of internal equity issues to manage. But maybe it's a soft "policy" and they don't really care too much if you're performing.

 

[Nole Daddy]

Stick to your salary demands AND the time off demands.

 

[OrlandNole]

It sounds like there are a lot of red flags with the OP's new opportunity. If you take the job, you're stuck there for at least a few years or else you run the risk of being labeled a job-hopper.

I'd hold on and wait for a better opportunity if I were you.

 

[TexSkills]

At my last company, the PTO was vacation and sick time combined and they only gave you 16 days when you first came on board. After 2 years, they bump it to 20 and after 5 years, you get 25.

With the company I joined last April, I get 3 weeks vacation, 3 "floating" holidays and all normal holidays. We're also closed the day after Thanksgiving which saves me at least one vacation day a year. We rarely log our vacation "outages" as it is.

 

[BelemNole]

A couple of things.
As for the other benefits - there are none. They don't even have health care yet. They expect to have a plan in place in 1-3 months and I negotiated a stipend to cover my healthcare until then. But they have nothing other than that. No 401k, no dental, no life, no nothing. Salary, vacation, and the promise of a health plan.

Goldmom, it wasn't a dig at your age. I was pointing out that with young children vacation time is more important to me than it is to you. You can be a workaholic because your kids have grown and flown the coup. Maybe if you weren't so damned old you wouldn't be so sensitive about your age. ;D