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Game of Thrones: Season Finale

But isn't one still pointless in this conversation? We don't think BOTH things happen do we? Like I said, I don't disagree, but I don't think anyone can say for certain. One of my concerns was that Mel wasn't at The Wall in the show like she was in the books. Her showing up last night was a positive as far as Jon's fate.

I think it's most likely both are used for Jon. But definitely the warging that's 100% definite in my head. His human body being resurrected I'd say 50-50 as they're definitely using it for another Season 1 character as IMBD spilled the beans. But I don't think it HAS to just be that one character.
 
The writers have a large hill to climb in the continued Arya plotline and possibly any further Jon Snow plotline...
 
I think it's most likely both are used for Jon. But definitely the warging that's 100% definite in my head. His human body being resurrected I'd say 50-50 as they're definitely using it for another Season 1 character as IMBD spilled the beans. But I don't think it HAS to just be that one character.

Hmmm. Don't follow what you mean here. Can you do that spoiler button thing and explain? Thanks.
Also, where did you see that where you mentioned earlier about the original ending being different?
 
The writers have a large hill to climb in the continued Arya plotline and possibly any further Jon Snow plotline...

Martin has been working on that for like 4 years now though so they really aren't cut loose yet. Still have a very good outline, a nearly completed book to lead them.
 
Hmmm. Don't follow what you mean here. Can you do that spoiler button thing and explain? Thanks.
Also, where did you see that where you mentioned earlier about the original ending being different?

I can't remember the specific site and when I just tried googling it, it's flooded with images of him dead from last night. But it was image captures from a screener given the press and to envision what it looks like just look at the last images of Jon as he's dying (where the blood to the left is flowing into an almost howling wolf like shape) and instead his eyes are white like he's warging and the blood is more definitely shaped like a howling wolf. It must have been edited out in the last week or so to make it more ambiguous.

As far as how I KNOW Jon is going to survive is because the book invests WAY too much time into his birthright as Rhaeghar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark's. That's important because not only is he Fire (Targ) and Ice (Stark) but Rhaeghars parentage means he could be Azor Ahai or the Prince that was promised. If you don't know what I mean by that, then watch this



And this



So Jon is just too %*%ed important to kill off. Plus the book has many references to him (and the other Starks who are all Wargs) warging into Ghost every night while sleeping.

So him surviving at least temporarily in Ghost is 100% in my eyes. Whether he stays trapped there or becomes one of the dragons by warging (thanks to his Targ and stark blood) or gets back into his own body I don't know. The actor said he's defibitely not coming back for next season but that could be a coy way of saying either he's stuck in Ghost before eventually coming back OR that he is "not the same" when coming back as They have established in the book that the resurrected are never 100% whole.

Plus remember Bran has established he can Warg into people, at least one person, so it might be that Jon steals another human body. I don't THINK this is true as part of the reason he's is important is that his body has half Targ and half Stark blood. So I'm guessing his body makes it as well.
 
The question remains, why kill Jon AFTER letting the Wildlings through your gates?

It's logically inconsistent.

Either don't let them through AND kill Jon OR let them through and let John live.

What they did makes no sense whatsoever.
 
Episode was great with all of those cliffhangers. Is the book and the show completely neck and neck now? I guess people will be looking all year to hear of any contract news w kit Harrington.

I read somewhere (can't find it currently) that he was one of only a very few who were signed on for 7 seasons
 
The Lord of Light (via Thoros of Mir) brought back Beric Donderion 6 times, and he remained Beric Donderion each time.

There's no reason to believe that the Red Witch can't do the same to Jon Snow.
 
The Lord of Light (via Thoros of Mir) brought back Beric Donderion 6 times, and he remained Beric Donderion each time.

There's no reason to believe that the Red Witch can't do the same to Jon Snow.

He wasn't exactly Beric just as Lady Stoneheart was not Cat... It isn't really explained in the show as much. Beric noted in the book everytime he loses more and more of himself that he does not feel Beric exists anymore.
 
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In the show, in Season 3, he is the same person, though he does make the comment that he's a little less himself each time. You're right about that much. But he's definitely still Beric Donderion.

Lady Stoneheart is more of a zombie in the books. A totally different person/being than Lady Catlyn was. I don't think the two are comparable, but I suppose it does illustrate the spectrum that Jon could come back as.
 
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The question remains, why kill Jon AFTER letting the Wildlings through your gates?

It's logically inconsistent.

Either don't let them through AND kill Jon OR let them through and let John live.

What they did makes no sense whatsoever.

You also just killed the only peaceful link between the two groups.
 
He wasn't exactly Beric .... It isn't really explained in the show as much. Beric noted in the book everytime he loses more and more of himself that he does not feel Beric exists anymore.

Yeah, but still. It's not like people are gonna look at Jon Snow, looking, acting and talking like Jon Snow and claim it's not "him" because he's lost some small, unnoticeable part of himself. If it happened it would only be one resurrection.
 
game-thrones-season-5-finale-jon-snow-leak.jpg
 
The question remains, why kill Jon AFTER letting the Wildlings through your gates?

It's logically inconsistent.

Either don't let them through AND kill Jon OR let them through and let John live.

What they did makes no sense whatsoever.

I think this is simply a matter of not having time before the Wildlings were let through. With Jon off on his mission they had time to put together a conspiracy and find out who was loyal to who.
Keep in mind that while some were swayed by what they considered betrayal, the first guy to stab him wanted him dead long before that. It's not simply a matter of logic. Some of them just saw an opportunity to kill someone they wanted dead. Remember, the last Lord Commander was murdered by his own men and didn't do anything nearly as severe as what Jon did, and he also didn't have nearly as divided a group under him.
 
Zeek,

My question would be was that an actual shot from footage or fan made tampering after the fact. These theories have been around for years.
 
What they should call it is Battle of the Mostly Realistic Show Where Evil People with Power Realistically Triumph over Poor and Good Guys.

Thank you! Even though it's a show with zombies, dragons and magic, it's still the most realistic in how a real world and those in power stay in power. The noble hero trope would die or be betrayed very quickly in a real world. Ruthless efficiency is what is needed to survive.
 
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In the show, in Season 3, he is the same person, though he does make the comment that he's a little less himself each time. You're right about that much. But he's definitely still Beric Donderion.

Lady Stoneheart is more of a zombie in the books. A totally different person/being than Lady Catlyn was. I don't think the two are comparable, but I suppose it does illustrate the spectrum that Jon could come back as.

Yeah your right so basically there is no way of knowing if Jon comes back if that will be as Jon Snow or something totally different.
 
Zeek,

My question would be was that an actual shot from footage or fan made tampering after the fact. These theories have been around for years.

The website had other screenshots (One of Cersei with her hair cut and another with Stannis' wife hanging) and each looked rough like they had been actual screenshots. The website had posted each of the shots prior to the episode being aired. You right, my first thought when FSUTribe mentioned it was that it could have been fan made. It looks legit, but its hard not to be skeptical.
 
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Anyone think Stannis is still alive?

Short answer Yes

Long Answer

One of the sample chapters from the yet to be released book has a Stannis viewpoint.

"
The king's voice was choked with anger. "You are a worse pirate than Salladhor Saan."
Theon Greyjoy opened his eyes. His shoulders were on fire and he could not move his hands. For half a heartbeat he feared he was back in his old cell under the Dreadfort, that the jumble of memories inside his head was no more than the residue of some fever dream. I was asleep, he realized. That, or passed out from the pain. When he tried to move, he swung from side to side, his back scraping against stone. He was hanging from a wall inside a tower, his wrists chained to a pair of rusted iron rings.

The air reeked of burning peat. The floor was hard-packed dirt. Wooden steps spiraled up inside the walls to the roof. He saw no windows. The tower was dank, dark, and comfortless, its only furnishings a high-backed chair and a scarred table resting on three trestles. No privy was in evidence, though Theon saw a champerpot in one shadowed alcove. The only light came from the candles on the table. His feet dangled six feet off the floor.

"My brother's debts," the king was muttering. "Joffrey's too, though that baseborn abomination was no kin to me." Theon twisted in his chains. He knew that voice. Stannis.
Theon Greyjoy chortled. A stab of pain went up his arms, from his shoulders to his wrists. All he had done, all he had suffered, Moat Cailin and Barrowton and Winterfell, Abel and his washerwomen, Crowfood and his Umbers, the trek through the snows, all of it had only served to exchange one tormentor for another.
"Your Grace," a second voice said softly. "Pardon, but your ink has frozen." The Braavosi, Theon knew. What was his name? Tycho... Tycho something... "Perhaps a bit of heat... ?"

"I know a quicker way." Stannis drew his dagger. For an instant Theon thought that he meant to stab the banker. You will never get a drop of blood from that one, my lord, he might have told him. The king laid the blade of the knife against the ball of his left thumb, and slashed. "There. I will sign in mine own blood. That ought to make your masters happy."

"If it please Your Grace, it will please the Iron Bank."

Stannis dipped a quill in the blood welling from his thumb and scratched his name across the piece of parchment. "You will depart today. Lord Bolton may be on us soon. I will not have you caught up in the fighting."
"That would be my preference as well." The Braavosi slipped the roll of parchment inside a wooden tube. "I hope to have the honor of calling on Your Grace again when you are seated on your Iron Throne."

"You hope to have your gold, you mean. Save your pleasantries. It is coin I need from Braavos, not empty courtesy. Tell the guard outside I have need of Justin Massey."
"It would be my pleasure. The Iron Bank is always glad to be of service." The banker bowed.
As he left, another entered; a knight. The king's knights had been coming and going all night, Theon recalled dimly. This one seemed to be the king's familiar. Lean, dark-haired, hard-eyed, his face marred by pockmarks and old scars, he wore a faded surcoat embroidered with three moths. "Sire," he announced, "the maester is without. And Lord Arnolf sends word that he would be most pleased to break his fast with you."

"The son as well?"

"And the grandsons. Lord Wull seeks audience as well. He wants — "
"I know what he wants." The king indicated Theon. "Him. Wull wants him dead. Flint, Norrey... all of them will want him dead. For the boys he slew. Vengeance for their precious Ned."
"Will you oblige them?"
"Just now, the turncloak is more use to me alive. He has knowledge we may need. Bring in this maester." The king plucked a parchment off the table and squinted over it. A letter, Theon knew. Its broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. I know what that says, he thought, giggling.
Stannis looked up. "The turncloak stirs."
"Theon. My name is Theon." He had to remember his name.
"I know your name. I know what you did."
"I saved her." The outer wall of Winterfell was eighty feet high, but beneath the spot where he had jumped the snows had piled up to a depth of more than forty. A cold white pillow. The girl had taken the worst of it. Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, but she will never tell them. Theon had landed on top of her, and broken some of her ribs. "I saved the girl," he said. "We flew."

Stannis snorted. "You fell. Umber saved her. If Mors Crowfood and his men had not been outside the castle, Bolton would have had the both of you back in moments."
Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, "I am — "
" — a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished. "You will hold that lying tongue, or lose it."
But Umber had looked at the girl closely, squinting down with his one good eye. "You are the younger daughter?"
And Jeyne had nodded. "Arya. My name is Arya."
"Arya of Winterfell, aye. When last I was inside those walls, your cook served us a steak and kidney pie. Made with ale, I think, best I ever tasted. What was his name, that cook?"
"Gage," Jeyne said at once. "He was a good cook. He would make lemoncakes for Sansa whenever we had lemons."
Crowfood had fingered his beard. "Dead now, I suppose. That smith of yours as well. A man who knew his steel. What was his name?"
Jeyne had hesitated. Mikken, Theon thought. His name was Mikken. The castle blacksmith had never made any lemoncakes for Sansa, which made him far less important than the castle cook in the sweet little world she had shared with her friend Jeyne Poole. Remember, damn you. Your father was the steward, he had charge of the whole household. The smith's name was Mikken, Mikken, Mikken. I had him put to death before me!
"Mikken," Jeyne said.

Mors Umber had grunted. "Aye." What he might have said or done next Theon never learned, for that was when the boy ran up, clutching a spear and shouting that the portcullis on Winterfell's main gate was rising. And how Crowfood had grinned at that.
Theon twisted in his chains, and blinked down at the king. "Crowfood found us, yes, he sent us here to you, but it was me who saved her. Ask her yourself." She would tell him. "You saved me," Jeyne had whispered, as he was carrying her through the snow. She was pale with pain, but she had brushed one hand across his cheek and smiled. "I saved Lady Arya," Theon whispered back at her. And then all at once Mors Umber's spears were all around them. "Is this my thanks?" he asked Stannis, kicking feebly against the wall. His shoulders were in agony. His own weight was tearing them from their sockets. How long had he been hanging here? Was it still night outside? The tower was windowless, he had no way to know.

"Unchain me, and I will serve you."
"As you served Roose Bolton and Robb Stark?" Stannis snorted. "I think not. We have a warmer end in mind for you, turncloak. But not until we're done with you."
He means to kill me. The thought was queerly comforting. Death did not frighten Theon Greyjoy. Death would mean an end to pain. "Be done with me, then," he urged the king. "Take off my head off and stick it on a spear. I slew Lord Eddard's sons, I ought to die. But do it quick. He is coming."
"Who is coming? Bolton?"
"Lord Ramsay," Theon hissed. "The son, not the father. You must not let him take him. Roose... Roose is safe within the walls of Winterfell with his fat new wife. Ramsay is coming."
 
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What they should call it is Battle of the Mostly Realistic Show Where Evil People with Power Realistically Triumph over Poor and Good Guys.

well, perhaps you are right....but call me old fashioned, but I like to see good triumph over evil. I did, however, find the episode made more palatable by the prolonged nude milf walk,
 
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well, perhaps you are right....but call me old fashioned, but I like to see good triumph over evil. I did, however, find the episode made more palatable by the prolonged nude milf walk,

Well he was trying to set the fantasy tropes on its head and give some humanity to the "evil" characters although Glen Cook at the very least did it first. For true trope reversal, I prefer the Sundering duology by Jacqueline Carey as there you are literally rooting for "evil" to win (plus it has the best dragon depiction of any fantasy novel yet imo).
 
Sounds interesting / lately I like science fiction more than fantasy. Funny how tastes change as you get older. Can't stand a lot of the stuff I loved at 14.. Anyway, enough people are talking resurrection of Snow that I believe there may be hope, if not this season then the one after.
 
The large hill the writers have to climb is that they have not incorporated the Jon Snow / Arya warging talents into the show; whereas, in the books, it was laid out. This is important for Arya's continuing story (which is seemingly back on track) and any future story about Jon Snow. Who knows? Snow may just be done a la Ned. If that is the case, the producers better get a start on developing Rickon, because there is a serious lack of Stark men left to re-capture Winterfell and the North.
 
To me, Jon's death represents bad writing no matter what happens to him next. If he's really dead-dead, never to come back, it's AWFUL story telling. It makes no sense. It means years of work developing that storyline was for nothing. It totally disconnects the viewer from the The Wall, especially with Sam also going away. (Seriously, who would we track if we were to look to see what's up at the Wall without Jon Snow and Sam?). It takes what was one of the major high points of the show (the Battle at Hardhome a couple weeks ago) and wastes it. It had been leaked to me that Jon dies in the book, and I genuinely thought the show wouldn't do it because the writers would recognize how stupid of a decision GRRM had made. If they followed him down that path, shame on them.

On the other hand, if John is only "temporarily dead," then the decision to make that a season-ending cliffhanger was awful. It basically begs fans and critics to compare it to a crappy soap opera and makes what might really be a valid plot development seem like a really lazy gimmick by a team of writers short on ideas.
 
To me, Jon's death represents bad writing no matter what happens to him next. If he's really dead-dead, never to come back, it's AWFUL story telling. It makes no sense. It means years of work developing that storyline was for nothing. It totally disconnects the viewer from the The Wall, especially with Sam also going away. (Seriously, who would we track if we were to look to see what's up at the Wall without Jon Snow and Sam?). It takes what was one of the major high points of the show (the Battle at Hardhome a couple weeks ago) and wastes it. It had been leaked to me that Jon dies in the book, and I genuinely thought the show wouldn't do it because the writers would recognize how stupid of a decision GRRM had made. If they followed him down that path, shame on them.

On the other hand, if John is only "temporarily dead," then the decision to make that a season-ending cliffhanger was awful. It basically begs fans and critics to compare it to a crappy soap opera and makes what might really be a valid plot development seem like a really lazy gimmick by a team of writers short on ideas.
Depends on if you look at the show/books as the story of the Starks, Lannisters, Targaryans, etc. Or if you look at is as "the 7 kingdoms" is truly the main character.
 
To me, Jon's death represents bad writing no matter what happens to him next. If he's really dead-dead, never to come back, it's AWFUL story telling. It makes no sense. It means years of work developing that storyline was for nothing. It totally disconnects the viewer from the The Wall, especially with Sam also going away. (Seriously, who would we track if we were to look to see what's up at the Wall without Jon Snow and Sam?). It takes what was one of the major high points of the show (the Battle at Hardhome a couple weeks ago) and wastes it. It had been leaked to me that Jon dies in the book, and I genuinely thought the show wouldn't do it because the writers would recognize how stupid of a decision GRRM had made. If they followed him down that path, shame on them.

On the other hand, if John is only "temporarily dead," then the decision to make that a season-ending cliffhanger was awful. It basically begs fans and critics to compare it to a crappy soap opera and makes what might really be a valid plot development seem like a really lazy gimmick by a team of writers short on ideas.

Except it was a cliffhanger at the end of the last book. The show and book have basically converged. Sure, the show has moved past in some areas but leaving the biggest cliffhanger in the entire history of the books series where it belongs and at least giving the author that respect isn't stupid. It would've been stupid to ruin him coming back in some way a year before the book that tells that story comes out for no reason other than to avoid a "gimmick" as you call it. You'd have a point if they moved something around to cause it, but it happened exactly where it was supposed to happen. And no one is comparing it to a soap opera. People are flipping out trying to figure out if he's really dead or not. It begs fans to do what they always do with truly great modern television. Use their brains, imagine, come up with ideas and discuss them.
 
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It may make way more sense in the books with the more detailed back story, the problem is paralleling a book doesnt take into account screen presence abd charisma and acting. Non book readers only have the screen to go on. John Snow has become the king of the show, titles are beside the point. He was just perfect for this role and way too valuable to toss aside. Kings landing is a bore with taiwyn and tyrion gone, and even Danaerys was getting stale until last week. The north on screen, it just worked from season 1 until now. Its really become the show even if Martin didnt intend that.
So we will have to see what happens but if he really was killed off like that, well lame and poorly constructed sound right.
 
It may make way more sense in the books with the more detailed back story, the problem is paralleling a book doesnt take into account screen presence abd charisma and acting. Non book readers only have the screen to go on. John Snow has become the king of the show, titles are beside the point. He was just perfect for this role and way too valuable to toss aside. Kings landing is a bore with taiwyn and tyrion gone, and even Danaerys was getting stale until last week. The north on screen, it just worked from season 1 until now. Its really become the show even if Martin didnt intend that.
So we will have to see what happens but if he really was killed off like that, well lame and poorly constructed sound right.

He's extremely important in the books also. In fact, you kind of have it backwards. Many were a little dissapointed in the job Kit has done with the roll. He's fine, but as far as show characters go he doesn't hold up to some of the truly inspired performances. I said it shortly after the show began, the guy playing Robb Stark was much stronger and was a pity the Red Wedding was coming. Jon is my favorite character in the books but Tyrion is by far my favorite in the show. It doesn't work better in the books because he's less important, in works in both because he's vitally important on both.

Let's see how it plays out. Killing off Ned Stark was stupid too to those that hasn't read the books. It's possible that a guy that takes five years to write a book and has been working on this story for decades might actually have a plan.

As for King's Landing being a bore, there wasn't much story happening there. No way the stuff with Cercei coming home last night was boring
 
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