Interesting video on masks

[AllNoles]

I really enjoyed Cameron English's take on the mask debate. I thought it was a very balanced article.

Fact-Checking The Fact-Checkers: What Do Studies Say About Masks And COVID-19?​

That’s a good article. Fair. I think it comes down to what we saw from the FDA panel that signed off on boosters. They admitted there really wasn’t a good basis, but they had a gut feeling they’d be good. That’s kind of scary.

 

[GeddyLee09]

That’s a good article. Fair. I think it comes down to what we saw from the FDA panel that signed off on boosters. They admitted there really wasn’t a good basis, but they had a gut feeling they’d be good. That’s kind of scary.

If one shot cant hurt then why not two or three just like masks. I think it might be ok. Very scientific.

 

[GeddyLee09]

They do block viruses and bacteria that are contained in droplets, which is why they're worn.

From the FDA.

If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others.

While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, it does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face.

Surgical masks are not intended to be used more than once. If your surgical mask is damaged or soiled, or if breathing through the mask becomes difficult, you should remove it, discard it safely, and replace it with a new one. To safely discard your surgical mask, place it in a plastic bag and put it in the trash. Wash your hands after handling the used mask.

 

[PopsNole]

From the FDA.

If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others.

While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, it does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face.

Surgical masks are not intended to be used more than once. If your surgical mask is damaged or soiled, or if breathing through the mask becomes difficult, you should remove it, discard it safely, and replace it with a new one. To safely discard your surgical mask, place it in a plastic bag and put it in the trash. Wash your hands after handling the used mask.

Correct. Surgical masks are designed to block droplets that contain bacteria and viruses.

 

[GeddyLee09]

Correct. Surgical masks are designed to block droplets that contain bacteria and viruses.

There are alot of mays and coulds in there. May be effective and it does not filter small particles are key words there.

 

[AllNoles]

There are alot of mays and coulds in there. May be effective and it does not filter small particles are key words there.

Not to mention proper use. And replacement regularly. And the limited contact.

 

[PopsNole]

There are alot of mays and coulds in there. May be effective and it does not filter small particles are key words there.

Are you suggesting that surgeons should not be required to wear surgical masks in the operating room?

 

[GeddyLee09]

Are you suggesting that surgeons should not be required to wear surgical masks in the operating room?

No I'm suggesting that surgical masks are not effective at stopping the spread of viruses.

 

[PopsNole]

No I'm suggesting that surgical masks are not effective at stopping the spread of viruses.

They aren't effective at preventing the spread of viruses that are not contained in droplets. They are effective at containing the spread of viruses that are contained in droplets and with coughs and sneezes there are droplets so it lowers the amount of spread.

 

[GeddyLee09]

They aren't effective at preventing the spread of viruses that are not contained in droplets. They are effective at containing the spread of viruses that are contained in droplets and with coughs and sneezes there are droplets so it lowers the amount of spread.

There are studies out there that show both sides but they all seem inconclusive. Seems the virus spread with or without the masks in most cases. Like I said before I think the masks make people feel safe and that's fine. Will it stop someone from getting sick? There is no way to know for sure.

 

[PopsNole]

There are studies out there that show both sides but they all seem inconclusive. Seems the virus spread with or without the masks in most cases. Like I said before I think the masks make people feel safe and that's fine. Will it stop someone from getting sick? There is no way to know for sure.

I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. Masks help slow the spread if everyone did it but a lot of people are done complying or weren't going to anyhow so masks mandates are pretty pointless if you aren't going to enforce it. In a surgical setting they should 100% be used by anyone in the OR.

 

[AllNoles]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. Masks help slow the spread if everyone did it but a lot of people are done complying or weren't going to anyhow so masks mandates are pretty pointless if you aren't going to enforce it. In a surgical setting they should 100% be used by anyone in the OR.

Lol no they don’t. Not meaningfully. Even studies trying to support community mask use show no statistical difference or at most a tiny one. They’re worthless. If you think you need people wearing masks to keep you safe, you really should be staying isolated.

 

[PopsNole]

Lol no they don’t. Not meaningfully. Even studies trying to support community mask use show no statistical difference or at most a tiny one. They’re worthless. If you think you need people wearing masks to keep you safe, you really should be staying isolated.

You can’t have a valid statistical study in a commmunity when you have a large portion not complying to begin with it or not being consistent. It’s like saying masks don’t work bc they didn’t reduce spread in my office when 80% of the people in my office never wore a mask to begin with. The first big study they did on this acknowledged that they had no mechanism to know if the mask group even complied.

Masks blocks large percentage of droplets. Even if individual particles can still get through. That’s a fact and reduces spread. Whether it’s enough reduction to make mandatory masks mandates needed are a different discussion.

 

[buckeyenole]

They do block viruses and bacteria that are contained in droplets, which is why they're worn.

The whole point of my surgeon friend was that surgical masks are useless for preventing the spread of Covid. That's not what the masks are designed for, and that's not what they do. Also, the CDC has been saying for more than a year that Covid is mostly spread by aerosol particles, not by droplets.

If you read the article I linked, you may note that hand washing appears to be somewhat helpful, while mask-wearing appears to negate some of the advantage of hand washing. This may be part of the reason that no one has recommended mask wearing in the last 100 years to spread disease, and the CDC and NIH told Americans in the first month or to NOT to wear a mask because "It doesn't help, and may actually help spread the disease."

 

[buckeyenole]

Here you go. Concise. More at the link:

https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/

Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.​

Updated: August 2021
Published: July 2020
Share on: TG / TW / FB
Select LanguageEnglishDutchFrenchGermanGreekHebrewHungarianItalianJapaneseKoreanPolishPortugueseRussianSpanishSwedishTurkish
An overview of the current evidence regarding the effectiveness of face masks.
Contents: A) Published studies ⇓ B) Real-world evidence ⇓ C) N95/FFP2 masks ⇓ D) Additional aspects ⇓ E) The aerosol issue ⇓ F) Contrary evidence ⇓ G) Mask-related risks ⇓ H) Conclusion ⇓

A) Studies on the effectiveness of face masks​

So far, most studies found little to no evidence for the effectiveness of face masks in the general population, neither as personal protective equipment nor as a source control.

1. A May 2020 meta-study on pandemic influenza published by the US CDC found that face masks had no effect, neither as personal protective equipment nor as a source control. (Source)
2. A Danish randomized controlled trial with 6000 participants, published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in November 2020, found no statistically significant effect of high-quality medical face masks against SARS-CoV-2 infection in a community setting. (Source)
3. A large randomized controlled trial with close to 8000 participants, published in October 2020 in PLOS One, found that face masks “did not seem to be effective against laboratory-confirmed viral respiratory infections nor against clinical respiratory infection.” (Source)
4. A February 2021 review by the European CDC found no high-quality evidence supporting the effectiveness of non-medical and medical face masks in the community. Furthermore, the European CDC advised against the use of FFP2/N95 masks by the general public. (Source)
5. A July 2020 review by the Oxford Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine found that there is no evidence for the effectiveness of face masks against virus infection or transmission. (Source)
6. A November 2020 Cochrane review found that face masks did not reduce influenza-like illness (ILI) cases, neither in the general population nor in health care workers. (Source)
7. An April 2020 review by two US professors in respiratory and infectious disease from the University of Illinois concluded that face masks have no effect in everyday life, neither as self-protection nor to protect third parties (so-called source control). (Source)
8. An article in the New England Journal of Medicine from May 2020 came to the conclusion that face masks offer little to no protection in everyday life. (Source)
9. A 2015 study in the British Medical Journal BMJ Open found that cloth masks were penetrated by 97% of particles and may increase infection risk by retaining moisture or repeated use. (Source)
10. An August 2020 review by a German professor in virology, epidemiology and hygiene found that there is no evidence for the effectiveness of face masks and that the improper daily use of masks by the public may in fact lead to an increase in infections. (Source)

For a review of studies claiming face masks are effective, see section F) below.

B) Development of cases after mask mandates​

In many states, coronavirus infections strongly increased after mask mandates had been introduced. The following charts show the typical examples of Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Spain, the UK, California and Hawaii. Furthermore, a direct comparison between US states with and without mask mandates indicates that mask mandates have made no difference.
MUST GO TO LINK TO SEE BY COUNTRY RESULTS, PLUS CALIFORNIA

 

[misswebbsilverchief]

I really look forward to history's take on this and I hope I live long enough to read objective writing and reporting on the issue.

 

[PopsNole]

Here you go. Concise. More at the link:

I’m not arguing otherwise and I’m not for mask mandates but these mask mandate studies are inherently flawed because they assume mask wearing being complied with even though that rarely happens. Even pro mask people still sit in a restaurant with their mask off. Sit in their own office with no mask on. Only way to really know is to monitor people 24/7 and that’s never going to happen but regardless it’s clear in a general population masks do little to nothing on their own with Covid bc of how easily it spreads.

 

[AllNoles]

You’re right. While I hate the rules the only place I ever was that seems to care was Vegas. They had signs everywhere on how to wear them right and the enforced wearing them right. I hated it but I felt more like we disagreed but they were at least consistent.

 

[buckeyenole]

I’m not arguing otherwise and I’m not for mask mandates but these mask mandate studies are inherently flawed because they assume mask wearing being complied with even though that rarely happens. Even pro mask people still sit in a restaurant with their mask off. Sit in their own office with no mask on. Only way to really know is to monitor people 24/7 and that’s never going to happen but regardless it’s clear in a general population masks do little to nothing on their own with Covid bc of how easily it spreads.

Perhaps. But we're still waiting for the studies that show masks work. If people are being forced to wear masks, shouldn't there be clear, research-based evidence presented? Is it really enough to say, "Well, maybe this will help, so you must do this"? My view is that if we have numerous, carefully done studies, including randomized clinical trials, showing that masks don't work, should they at least publicize widely similar research showing that masks do work, before mandating, fining, jailing, or closing businesses?

 

[PopsNole]

Perhaps. But we're still waiting for the studies that show masks work. If people are being forced to wear masks, shouldn't there be clear, research-based evidence presented? Is it really enough to say, "Well, maybe this will help, so you must do this"? My view is that if we have numerous, carefully done studies, including randomized clinical trials, showing that masks don't work, should they at least publicize widely similar research showing that masks do work, before mandating, fining, jailing, or closing businesses?

That's up to the government officials. They're likely on the side of well if we won't have a clear answer lets play it safe and require wearing masks just in case.

Also, you have to remember, especially early on a lot of people were dying around the world. They aren't going to say hey guys we're not going to make anyone do anything they don't want to while we wait on years of studies on this. If Covid hypothetically started killing 25% of those infected and the government was waiting on months to years of studies to mandate social distancing, masks, etc. they were would have tracked down and killed in the streets. They're going to do whatever suggests it might slow the spread. Frankly, it's what they should do IMO. If evidence starts mounting that regulations are not impacting it weeks to months later then maybe you remove them.

 

[CocoaNoles]

It doesn't cause harm. People have mental disorders, etc. that make them think that there is something wrong. This may cause headaches, fear, panic, etc. But proper medical masks do not cause harm. Period. Never have, never will.

You ever try wearing a facemask of any type while playing a sporting activity or running around at recess like they are making children do?

Were you ever a teenage dealing with acne and having it compounded by mask wearing (or is mask-nee not a thing)?

You ever watch grown men on a construction site in high 90 degree weather wearing a mask performing physical work and struggling to get fresh air. Try it once and then say they do no harm?

Folks who wore masks in their day to day live previously did so during periodic times when dictated by risk. Masks were never intended to be worn for 8-hour stretches of time per day. No one has ever tested a person (child or adult) for 8-hour days for 19 months straight to determine if it causes harm or not.

Stating "proper medical masks do not cause harm" is insincere and just incorrect.

GO NOLES!!!

 

[Dhersh]

You ever try wearing a facemask of any type while playing a sporting activity or running around at recess like they are making children do?

Were you ever a teenage dealing with acne and having it compounded by mask wearing (or is mask-nee not a thing)?

You ever watch grown men on a construction site in high 90 degree weather wearing a mask performing physical work and struggling to get fresh air. Try it once and then say they do no harm?

Folks who wore masks in their day to day live previously did so during periodic times when dictated by risk. Masks were never intended to be worn for 8-hour stretches of time per day. No one has ever tested a person (child or adult) for 8-hour days for 19 months straight to determine if it causes harm or not.

Stating "proper medical masks do not cause harm" is insincere and just incorrect.

GO NOLES!!!

I wear a mask for about 10 hours a day, including during times of intense physical exertion. What's your point? If you are calling acne harmful then this conversation is over lol.

 

[PopsNole]

You ever try wearing a facemask of any type while playing a sporting activity or running around at recess like they are making children do?

Were you ever a teenage dealing with acne and having it compounded by mask wearing (or is mask-nee not a thing)?

You ever watch grown men on a construction site in high 90 degree weather wearing a mask performing physical work and struggling to get fresh air. Try it once and then say they do no harm?

Folks who wore masks in their day to day live previously did so during periodic times when dictated by risk. Masks were never intended to be worn for 8-hour stretches of time per day. No one has ever tested a person (child or adult) for 8-hour days for 19 months straight to determine if it causes harm or not.

Stating "proper medical masks do not cause harm" is insincere and just incorrect.

GO NOLES!!!

I thought masks didn't stop virus particles from going through so are useless. They can't stop particles but are stopping oxygen molecules?

Wearing a mask constantly being uncomfortable is not the same as causing harm.

 

[AllNoles]

I thought masks didn't stop virus particles from going through so are useless. They can't stop particles but are stopping oxygen molecules?

Wearing a mask constantly being uncomfortable is not the same as causing harm.

It’s all I need. I’m miserable wearing one for ten minutes. I hate them. So y’all may just want to stay away from me.

 

[CocoaNoles]

I wear a mask for about 10 hours a day, including during times of intense physical exertion. What's your point? If you are calling acne harmful then this conversation is over lol.

To a teenager; they would rather die than have acne? Did you not see my preface? Also, after 10-hours a day, how many masks do you go through? Certainly a sweat soaked mask does not do a great job of pandemic prevention.

GO NOLES!!!

 

[Dhersh]

To a teenager; they would rather die than have acne? Did you not see my preface? Also, after 10-hours a day, how many masks do you go through? Certainly a sweat soaked mask does not do a great job of pandemic prevention.

GO NOLES!!!

Well I'm not sure who you are trying to convince. I don't like wearing a mask. But I'm an adult and I wear a mask when asked to. But these minor things that people are claiming are harmful and "caused by wearing a mask" are nonsense.

 

[CocoaNoles]

I thought masks didn't stop virus particles from going through so are useless. They can't stop particles but are stopping oxygen molecules?

Wearing a mask constantly being uncomfortable is not the same as causing harm.

Pops... I think you are confusing me with someone else. I've never said the masks can't stop droplets. I said they can be harmful. You asserting they can't be harmful is nonsensical. I've painted a handful of specific scenarios where they can be. I do not believe that anyone argues with below (cherry picked from WHO related article):

• By making breathing difficult, wearing a mask while being active may exacerbate the existing symptom.
• Sweat may also make a mask wet, further hindering breathing and encouraging the growth of microorganisms
• Exposure to microorganisms could trigger an infection that has nothing to do with the coronavirus.
• Masks have little to no effect at warding off viruses when damp

GO NOLES!!!

 

[CocoaNoles]

Well I'm not sure who you are trying to convince. I don't like wearing a mask. But I'm an adult and I wear a mask when asked to.

Not trying to convince anyone. I have pre-teen / teen and am stating observed real life sentiment to this daily mask wearing from a father's perspective. It is cruel to make my 5th / 7th graders exercise with a mask on, but they do, on a daily basis.

I am also an adult and will wear a mask when decorum demands it. Otherwise, I do not, as they are unconformable and are not worn by anyone they way that they are intended to. Regularly, folks pull their masks down to communicate and often lean in because they are muffled and can not be understood through a mask. It's comical almost.

Back in March of 2020 Fauci gave the advise on masking which is real, it causes more harm than good.

GO NOLES!!!

 

[PopsNole]

It’s all I need. I’m miserable wearing one for ten minutes. I hate them. So y’all may just want to stay away from me.

Ohhh I hate wearing them for more than 10-20 minutes as well. Especially if it's hot outside. However, just pointing out being uncomfortable isn't the same as it causing physical harm.

 

[PopsNole]

Pops... I think you are confusing me with someone else. I've never said the masks can't stop droplets. I said they can be harmful. You asserting they can't be harmful is nonsensical. I've painted a handful of specific scenarios where they can be. I do not believe that anyone argues with below (cherry picked from WHO related article):

• By making breathing difficult, wearing a mask while being active may exacerbate the existing symptom.
• Sweat may also make a mask wet, further hindering breathing and encouraging the growth of microorganisms
• Exposure to microorganisms could trigger an infection that has nothing to do with the coronavirus.
• Masks have little to no effect at warding off viruses when damp

GO NOLES!!!

The masks don't stop the flow of oxygen so how do they make it hard to breathe?
Numbers 2-3 are solved by simply changing masks or washing them daily.

 

[CocoaNoles]

The masks don't stop the flow of oxygen so how do they make it hard to breathe?

Again, I am talking about during exercise, so maybe there is a misunderstanding. You denying that masks trap moisture latent air in a confined space in front of your nose and mouth is mind boggling. Try it for a sustained period of time and then report back. Thanks in advance Pops.

GO NOLES!!!

 

[Dhersh]

The masks don't stop the flow of oxygen so how do they make it hard to breathe?

Phobia is the simple answer. People may feel confined and may freak out. But that is a mental disorder not harm caused by a mask.

 

[PopsNole]

Again, I am talking about during exercise, so maybe there is a misunderstanding. You denying that masks trap moisture latent air in a confined space in front of your nose and mouth is mind boggling. Try it for a sustained period of time and then report back. Thanks in advance Pops.

GO NOLES!!!

I'm not denying that breath can cause the build up of moisture. However, moisture does not lead to harm unless you're suggesting that these viruses, bacteria, germs are growing in a matter of minutes to hours leading to infection.

 

[CocoaNoles]

I'm not denying that breath can cause the build up of moisture. However, moisture does not lead to harm unless you're suggesting that these viruses, bacteria, germs are growing in a matter of minutes to hours leading to infection.

Let's say you expel 4 times the amount of water during exercise than normal breathing. You and @Dhersh both believe breathing in this amount of moisture (especially when your body needs oxygen) is OK, especially when you are breathing harder trying to obtain more oxygen? Am I reading you both right? I'm assuming neither of you are Olympic class athletes where you may want to train with a mask to assist in lung development because of the strain they put on you.

GO NOLES!!!

 

[Dhersh]

Let's say you expel 4 times the amount of water during exercise than normal breathing. You and @Dhersh both believe breathing in this amount of moisture (especially when your body needs oxygen) is OK, especially when you are breathing harder trying to obtain more oxygen? Am I reading you both right? I'm assuming neither of you are Olympic class athletes where you may want to train with a mask to assist in lung development because of the strain they put on you.

GO NOLES!!!

I would say you are not reading me right. I don't think wearing a mask causes harm under most circumstances and choosing special conditions to apply all the time to make a point is not a fair argument to make on your part.

 

[CocoaNoles]

I would say you are not reading me right. I don't think wearing a mask causes harm under most circumstances and choosing special conditions to apply all the time to make a point is not a fair argument to make on your part.

My point is that masks mandates regardless of situation can be harmful..

I've emphasized a couple of harmful ones here in this thread. I believe your statement above somewhat agrees there can be harmful conditions... so thanks for that.

Next week my county votes again and hopefully they will at minimum allow my kids to take a mask off at recess and in gym... I think it is the humane thing to do.

GO NOLES!!!

 

[Warchant User 253]

Since when do surgical or cloth masks trap carbon dioxide? OR teams wear masks for hours upon hours and don't seem to ever enter a state of hypoxia.

Results​

Among 50 adult volunteers (median age 33 years; 32% with a co-morbidity), there were no episodes of hypoxemia or hypercarbia (0%; 95% confidence interval 0–1.9%). In paired comparisons, there were no statistically significant differences in either CO2 or SpO2 between baseline measurements without a mask and those while wearing either kind of mask mask, both at rest and after walking briskly for ten minutes.

Interpretation​

The risk of pathologic gas exchange impairment with cloth masks and surgical masks is near-zero in the general adult population.

University of Fla came out with a statement that masks are dangerous and at least two diseases can be contacted from them . Don’t ask which it was a couple of weeks ago. Epoch times for conservatives that may want news from a source other than the mainstream media.

 

[Warchant User 253]

It is my opinion that mask use is a useful tool in mitigating the virus spread when you are exposed to the virus for a brief period of time, in a relatively well ventilated environment. In other words, if someone were to walk into my office and was several feet away it might prevent an illness if that exposure was brief and we both were masked. I believe it is counterintuitive to believe otherwise. I do not believe it would prevent an illness if the exposure was within a car for an extended period of time. Much of the time our interactions with other people follow the first scenario. None of your studies are useful in regards to that kind of exposure. The studies you mentioned in no way measure the overall benefits of wearing masks as it applies to Covid. The best evidence I can give you to the effectiveness of masks in the historically low incidence of influenza. You dismiss the studies that I posted because they are observational but they are at least measuring something that provides us with beneficial information. The CDC and medical journals think enough of them to publish them and you dismiss this as political. They may be observational but they are the best ones available at this point in time. It is not beneficial to know that a caregiver providing care to a sick individual needs more protection then a surgical mask. It is not beneficial to know that surgical masks do not protect family members in the household with a sick family member. We already know that. It is not beneficial to know that if you wear a mask out in public you get sick at roughly the same rate as those that do not wear masks. I object to the silly video which concludes at the end that masks are useless. I am not going to debate that the studies you posted are scientifically superior to the ones that I posted. I agree with you that they are but they are not measuring anything that I think applies to the wearing of masks according to todays CDC guidelines.

So you believe what the CDC puts out? How about Fauci, think he had lied about gain of function and the NIH’s funding? Believe what you want. Smallest virus are around 10 microns and the larger ones up to 60 microns, while the Best surgical masks have pores at 80 microns. If you think that will stop the virus transmission wear your mask. Just don’t be that guy riding his bike with his mask on…..

 

[fsufool]

University of Fla came out with a statement that masks are dangerous and at least two diseases can be contacted from them . Don’t ask which it was a couple of weeks ago. Epoch times for conservatives that may want news from a source other than the mainstream media.

Mask science which goes back over a generation has never been solid in any direction. Most think it is unlikely any mitigation of spread occurs. There is a pre-print from a large study in Pakistan that demonstrates large decrease in spread. Looks to be well done, but had subjects wearing masks in their homes during delta spread.

 

[chumleynole]

So you believe what the CDC puts out? How about Fauci, think he had lied about gain of function and the NIH’s funding? Believe what you want. Smallest virus are around 10 microns and the larger ones up to 60 microns, while the Best surgical masks have pores at 80 microns. If you think that will stop the virus transmission wear your mask. Just don’t be that guy riding his bike with his mask on…..

This is a layup to refute. Most of the virus is carried in water particles. The mask is intended to mitigate the risk. That means to make it less. Put a new mask on and wear it for an hour. The mask at the end will contain more moisture then when you put it on. Therefore if there was virus in the the water you were expelling, some of it would be caught in the mask. That means less virus in the air to infect others. That is a mitigation of the spread of the virus. You do not need studies to figure this out. If you have close contact with an infected individual for a prolonged period of time it probably is useless to expect a mask to protect you, but if you walk by someone in the grocery store who is infected and wearing a mask it just might. Micron size is mostly meaningless because very little of virus is floating around without being encased in water droplets.