A. it's just a thought ...not a contention.
B. Should we not sometimes question long held premise?
Anyone following the story of the two teens missing at sea?
- Thread starter OrlandNole
- Start date
B. Should we not sometimes question long held premise?
Fair enough. I have a hard time questioning trying to save the lives of kids that made a few errors in judgement though.
People are found and rescued in these types of situations. Not all or even most of them, but it does happen. I would never consider not searching at all. The questions would be when to call it off and when to search when doing so might put others in danger.
I think the bigger issue is education. Far too many boaters, both young and old, don't have the skills and knowledge that they need in order to deal with the situations they put or find themselves in. The boater safety course requirement here in Florida is a good start, but the course is a joke. I had a friend get his for insurance reasons and it consisted of a short internet course. I certify people to charter sailing and power yachts without a captain for weeks at a time and honestly most of them aren't really ready from that course alone. People simply don't have enough respect for the water and weather, not to mention their lack of understanding for rules and courtesy on the water when it comes to other vessels.
I'm all for giving them a rescue effort but question their mental process on taking that small a boat out through that inlet on even the best of days. The fact that they didn't have on their flotation devices tells me that they were suddenly swept from the boat and were totally unprepared for what happened to them. This fault lies with them and with their parents and nobody else. And in their defense, unless you witnessed that storm that day you can't really know how fast it came up and how violent it was. It was as bad a summer storm as they come...
I suppose it might end up saving more lives in the long run. But it’ll never happen when it’s a child involved, is my guess. In the short term we’re always going to consider each individual life at stake, and I just don’t see us in a sense ‘making an example’ out of any individual child, seemingly sacrificing their life. Children aren’t held culpable for lacking good mature judgement. In this most recent case, I know what the kids were supposedly told and what they apparently agreed to, as far as where they’d sail. But I still hold adults as ultimately responsible for what happened. The kids were victim to their youthful naivete. So I’m glad we went overboard searching for the kids. I’d rather be reasonably certain that we searched as long as they could possibly be alive, than risk giving up, if somehow (as improbable as it was) they really had made a raft, and maybe grabbed their gatoraid bottles, and somehow managed to survive to a 6th or 7th day.
And probably my feeling that way is me being a victim of Adult naivete, lol. And paraphrasing you, it probably IS a little bit of me wanting to feel human empathy and placate my need to feel like a good member of the species.
(......I guess one device was found on the boat, but I thought maybe they had 3 flotation devices......RTM says they had invited a 3rd kid to come along, but he declined)
They found one with the boat. I'm going to assume the other one drifted away from the boat. Could it have been on one of them, sure. Could they have had more than two flotation devices, perhaps but it didn't seem like they were too keen on safety so I'm going to guess not...
I guess the other thing that kind of nudges me to guessing that they put them on is the coast guard finding the boat motor cover taken off. I'm not a boater whatsoever so please correct me, anybody. But I was thinking that indicated definite human action (it can't just pop open?), a possible mechanical failure, and probably time for them to get worried and start taking precautions.
Could have happened either way I suppose......it's funny how my mind wants to figure out how those kids final moments went, when it makes not much difference. It was likely either a fairly fast drowning, or a REALLY fast drowning, if they never got the vests on.
My guess is they'd loaded up with gas and bait and were determined to catch some fish. They knew the storm was coming but at that age it's easy to say, "We'll just run out quickly fish for a little bit since we're already here." So they were probably going faster over the waves and came over a crest, into a deep trough and buried the bow into a big swell. I imagine that might be enough to flip the boat and throw them off of it. I'd be interested to know if the center console was damaged or torn off.
Yeah, I thought that too about the motor cover but not about the vests. I don't know why, I was just assuming they had two at most and never put them on. But now one can wonder if one dude got swept off first did the other dude try to throw him one and put one on and leave on in the cubby only to be swept off himself. Etc, etc, etc. I guess we'll never know. Tragic any way you slice it. As a parent it's got to be gut wrenching...
You are correct. Unless it was broken or not on correctly, which can happen, the cowling would not just pop off. You have to open a fairly strong lever to unlatch it. If then engine was disabled and they were in or near the Gulf Stream in a strong North wind, it would be very easy for a small open craft like that to broach, and then swamp or flip. Putting their life vests on would have been prudent, but who knows. People that aren't trained specifically for those types of situations often forget to do the simple, obvious things to ensure their safety. Vests should have went on as soon as they saw bad weather. A "pan pan" (similar to a mayday, but used when there isn't imminent danger) call should have need made on the radio if the engine died. Who knows? Unless one of them is rescued and tells his story, we have nothing but guesses. Somewhat educated, wild guesses.
The pic I saw of their boat showed it with a canopy in place. I have no idea if those are sturdy or collapsable or removable. But it made me visualize the boat getting turned up at angle by rough seas, and wonder if the wind could catch under that canopy and help pull the boat over / flip it.
Sorry to be so ignorant of boating, but would their vessel have almost certainly been equipped with a radio, and would it have full functionality for talking, not just the 'pan pan' signal? (to some range). Maybe however things went, it went down very fast at some point after if/when, the engine died.
some boats are easier to turn over than others, but I think its pretty tough to turn over a 19 ft CC.
A panga? now that is a bunch easier.
A panga? now that is a bunch easier.
The gulf is a lake and the east coast usually has waves.
His statement is far from ridiculous. Yes the gulf can get waves... and yes it is sometimes a life saver to not wear a seatbelt. Neither is normal.
this is the boat they were in:
It is not a boat for going out into the ocean, except in calm weather. The Gulf stream is an ocean current flowing South to North only a few miles off of Florida's East coast. Any strong wind from the North quickly creates large steep waves that can easily capsize a boat like this if the operator doesn't really know what he's doing. There are similar sized boats that can handle it better, but this boat is designed for inland waters. It probably did have a VHF radio in the center console, but unfortunately most recreational boaters don't know the proper procedure and protocols to use it. If they noticed the possibility of being in danger, they should have put out a "pan pan" call, which would notify other boaters and the Coast Guard, that while they are not in immediate danger, the possibility exists. A "pan pan" is done by voice on channel 16. During that call, they would also give their position, assuming they had GPS, or at least an estimate based on the closest land feature. As NolePilot mentioned, anyone going out should carry and EPIRB, which is a rescue beacon you can buy cheaply now, they should also have a submersible handheld VHF, so they can still communicate (and make mayday calls) if the fixed one on the boat becomes disabled. All fixed radios and some handhelds also have a DSC signal that is an automatic emergency signal. If the radio is equipped or connected to a GPS, that signal will also transmit location.
As far as the cover (bimini), It can get caught by wind, but it is unlikely, it would flip the boat by itself. Waves are the more likely culprit as the bimini would probably rip off before flipping the boat.
Hope that helps with some of your questions. I don't know what happened, but as you see there are many things that could have been done to avoid it, or at least give them a much better chance of rescue.
It is not a boat for going out into the ocean, except in calm weather. The Gulf stream is an ocean current flowing South to North only a few miles off of Florida's East coast. Any strong wind from the North quickly creates large steep waves that can easily capsize a boat like this if the operator doesn't really know what he's doing. There are similar sized boats that can handle it better, but this boat is designed for inland waters. It probably did have a VHF radio in the center console, but unfortunately most recreational boaters don't know the proper procedure and protocols to use it. If they noticed the possibility of being in danger, they should have put out a "pan pan" call, which would notify other boaters and the Coast Guard, that while they are not in immediate danger, the possibility exists. A "pan pan" is done by voice on channel 16. During that call, they would also give their position, assuming they had GPS, or at least an estimate based on the closest land feature. As NolePilot mentioned, anyone going out should carry and EPIRB, which is a rescue beacon you can buy cheaply now, they should also have a submersible handheld VHF, so they can still communicate (and make mayday calls) if the fixed one on the boat becomes disabled. All fixed radios and some handhelds also have a DSC signal that is an automatic emergency signal. If the radio is equipped or connected to a GPS, that signal will also transmit location.
As far as the cover (bimini), It can get caught by wind, but it is unlikely, it would flip the boat by itself. Waves are the more likely culprit as the bimini would probably rip off before flipping the boat.
Hope that helps with some of your questions. I don't know what happened, but as you see there are many things that could have been done to avoid it, or at least give them a much better chance of rescue.
Yes that was a really helpful post with all the radio information and explaining about the Ripaway.
It's just all the more saddening to think about all the things that could have helped maybe prevent this.
But in the end it comes back to that not being a proper ocean-going boat and the parents (I guess) really believing the kids wouldn't go there -- or at least not go in bad weather. I'd never go into the ocean in that thing, period.
No one wears them
In rough weather you should I don't care how skilled you are. If you get swept off the boat and the boat keeps going you're pretty much screwed...
It's one thing to somehow get caught out in something like that, quite another to voluntarily head offshore in those conditions. Just confirms what we all thought - just really poor judgment by these kids. We've all made mistakes like that but fortunately most of us live to tell about it.
That's what it was like in the Gulf when those football players flipped there boat a few years ago. We were actually holding an extreme kiteboard race that day and they had no business 30 miles offshore in a small craft. EPIRB sales skyrocketed after that, but I guess not everyone got the message.
this is the boat they were in:
That looks like a Seacraft?
If so I had that same boat once.
this is the boat they were in:
That looks like a Seacraft?
If so I had that same boat once.
It's not faux outrage. I can't really say what I think because I'll get banned. Glad that you're proud of acting like that. Dead kids are funny.
