Canelo vs Golovkin 2
- Thread starter NoleinATL
- Start date
Didn’t watch
It seems that nowadays in boxing there’s a fight, a re-fight and then a re-re- fight!
I think if they did away with the automatic rematch clause in the contracts it would create more urgency to Win the fight outright the first time
It seems that nowadays in boxing there’s a fight, a re-fight and then a re-re- fight!
I think if they did away with the automatic rematch clause in the contracts it would create more urgency to Win the fight outright the first time
Watched it. Loved it. I thought it was a great fight, much better than their first. My favorite kind of fight in boxing is when very skilled fighters put on an aggressive display of elite offense like that. I can highly appreciate the skills of a Hopkins or Mayweather to spoil the offense of good aggressive fighters and tap out a points victory, but it's not my bag for enjoyment. Nor is just two tomato cans round-housing each other until one of them tires out or gets caught (which a lot of people love).
Agreed....That's why my favorite all-time bout is Hagler/Hearns.
So Lou, what was your take on the fight. I have read a lot online and many people seem to think it should have been a draw or that GGG should have won the fight. I have also read that Canelo should take this as vindication. I'm not exactly sure how winning a Majority decision by a single round is vindication of anything.
I refused to pay for it, and thus didn't watch, so I cannot comment on specifics.
I had GGG winning 7-5. I thought a draw was just as likely. I can't recall a fight I've seen where virtually every round was tough to score. From my view, about 10 of the 12 rounds were debatable.
I think a score for Canelo was totally reasonable. On the broadcast, through the first half of the fight, Kellerman thought Canelo was almost dominating, and Lederman had GGG up a couple rounds. I think the closeness of the scores shows that the judging was pretty straight. With every round so close, had a judge been in the bag for either guy, they probably could have scored 8-9 rounds for that guy. I think the scores reflect the fight was as close as it was. There were many media ringside that had Canelo by 2 points.
All that said, my gut tells me that Canelo got the benefit of about two points in each fight. I think a 2-point win for GGG in the first fight and a draw in this fight feels like the more accurate result. It does sort of feel like Canelo's getting a bit of a benefit of the doubt.
I pretty much disagree. That was the story Kellerman was selling as well through the first half.
What I saw was the fresher fighter in the last third of the fight, who turned the fight to his advantage and was landing the much more punishing blows late in the fight.
Do I think GGG is off his peak? Sure, but I think it's being way oversold by some, and doesn't give Canelo credit. GGG ate a lot of shots, and didn't just walk through in destroyer mode because...Canelo is really, really good. Canelo is a good offensive fighter...unless you are a defense first guy like Lara or Mayweather or Hopkins...Canelo is going to put some leather on you. He's a great counterpuncher, throws excellent combinations, and works the body well.
I think he gave GGG some real problems with his aggression early on, and coming forward really seemed to handcuff GGG going to the body. If he doesn't take away GGGs body work, I think GGG stops him by the end...Canelo was really fighting in spurts in the last third, and seemed to be wearing down. It was an excellent strategy, executed very well, and I think won him the fight.
I don't think there was anything that much more lethargic about GGG, and I am not seeing the dropoff everyone talks about. The difference is in the level of competition. Canelo x 2 and Danny Jacobs are not Matthew Macklin and Martin Murray and Willie Monroe. I really get a kick out of the way the HBO people really sold guys like Macklin and Murray, and how legitimate they were, to pump GGG up, and then want to talk about him getting old when he's facing some of the best out there.
I've always like GGG, but he was never as good as he looked fighting C and B- level fighters, and not as diminished as he's going to look against a pound for pound rated opponent. Just like Tyson didn't necessarily "lose something" because he didn't treat Evander Holyfield the same way he treated Pinklon Thomas. There's another guy in there.
Just like I love it when football fans complain about a scheme "sure, it works against lesser teams, but is it really the kind of defense that's going to shut down an elite offense?" Hint...the answer is no. No scheme is going to dominate an elite offense or defense. That's why they're elite.
Very entertaining fight. Surprised Canelo was the aggressor to start and think it gave him the fight. I thought GGG won the fight but this decision was a better one than the draw as it was a closer fight. . I hope we get to see a 3rd fight next year.
I agree. It was a ballsy and effective strategy for Canelo. The guy hasn't gotten his due really from a lot of boxing fans because he was kind of christened the next big Mexican thing when he was 19 and shoved down everyone's throat by Golden Boy and HBO. I get that he was being pushed as a boxing great well before he'd established himself as such.
But the guy is really, really good now and has been for a few years. His resume is pretty amazing when you look at it, he's fought virtually everyone and anyone he could fight, in most cases at very early opportunities, and faced guys like Trout and Lara who were all risk, no reward. Because he's taken on some really difficult guys that aren't easily taken out, I also think he doesn't get as much credit as he deserves for being a serious puncher. When he's not in there with an elite guy or a stylistic spoiler, he's got some really nasty finishes.
I've never been a huge Canelo fan, somewhat because of the hype, but the guy has mostly delivered. And he's only 28.
Mayweather had just headlined his first PPV (Gatti) at 28, and was barely drawing flies at that point...almost his entire mainstream notoriety came after 28 (while he indeed had an excellent body of work at lightweight for hardcore fans). Canelo could literally have the better part of a career ahead of him, with huge fights/series to come against guys who are barely known at this point.
I hate to agree with Kellerman
To me, GGG ate too many clean shots...I am not much of an Alvarez fan, but he moved, threw combos, and selected the appropriate punch FAR better than I ever remember seeing from him. I AM a big GGG fan, and I was disappointed in his "careful, metered approach" to exchanging leather. Truth be told, I expected the best version of GGG, not a regressed version. To me he was boxing in fear that a fight might break out - not true to himself. Whereas Alvarez was channeling a much more technically proficient version of himself, while not becoming defensively-fixated. He had great head movement and he countered aggressively after slipping punches, often with a combo. Very well constructed strategy.
I hate to agree with Kellerman
To me, GGG ate too many clean shots...I am not much of an Alvarez fan, but he moved, threw combos, and selected the appropriate punch FAR better than I ever remember seeing from him. I AM a big GGG fan, and I was disappointed in his "careful, metered approach" to exchanging leather. Truth be told, I expected the best version of GGG, not a regressed version. To me he was boxing in fear that a fight might break out - not true to himself. Whereas Alvarez was channeling a much more technically proficient version of himself, while not becoming defensively-fixated. He had great head movement and he countered aggressively after slipping punches, often with a combo. Very well constructed strategy.
I can't necessarily disagree with any of that. I think GGG has to regret his approach to how long he allowed Canelo to be the agressor. Especially because it kept him from putting in any body work. It wasn't a TERRIBLE approach, as it very nearly got him the win against arguably the best Canelo we've seen to date. But I do think it probably cost him the fight.
Maybe he's significantly diminished, physically or motivation-wise...we'll see. To me it was just a strategy thing, either choosing the wrong approach, or not really knowing how to deal with what Alvarez showed him.
I completely agree - GGG played "patient" rather than rattling Canelo with great vengeance and furious
anger, and the judges didn't like it any more than I did.
GGG: "OK, how do we destroy this bastard?"
Trainer: "Let's dazzle him with a plodding, exploratory style...He'll never see it coming!!"
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I din't see the 2nd fight; I just can't justify the amount PPV's cost and the frequency at which they occur with MMA as well.
I did see the 1st fight last week or so when they replayed it on HBO I think. The first fight was pretty good and one of the better boxing matches I have seen in a decade or so. Although I just don't watch much boxing anymore.
I did see the 1st fight last week or so when they replayed it on HBO I think. The first fight was pretty good and one of the better boxing matches I have seen in a decade or so. Although I just don't watch much boxing anymore.
Catch the second one on replay too when it comes up...much better than the first. And the first was good, as you say.
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By the way, they're talking about bringing Canelo back in December, which they should. He should fight more given his age.
Interesting thing is, Golden Boy claims Canelo's contract with HBO is up, so he could end up somewhere else. HBO has let their boxing wither on the vine, so would be very interesting to see what happens with that. He and GGG are just about all they have left of note. Will be curious to see whether they make a play to keep him, or if HBO is exiting the boxing business after all these decades.
Interesting thing is, Golden Boy claims Canelo's contract with HBO is up, so he could end up somewhere else. HBO has let their boxing wither on the vine, so would be very interesting to see what happens with that. He and GGG are just about all they have left of note. Will be curious to see whether they make a play to keep him, or if HBO is exiting the boxing business after all these decades.
Wow, I didn't want it to be true, but I was right. Sure enough, HBO announced today it was getting out of boxing. Writing has kind of been on the wall, but I just didn't want to believe it. Kind of emotional, this has been an institution my entire fandom. As a boxing fan, sort of feels like it would feel if the Cubs moved out of Wrigley into a new stadium or something.
I had the same emotions today Lou. Boxing on HBO was must see TV. This is an end of an era.
It's funny, because in a lot of ways, HBO was bad for the sport in the big picture. They were the biggest part of taking fights off "free TV" and putting boxing behind a paywall. They truly weaponized pay per view, taking it from a once a year or every other year thing (and before that closed circuit) to trying to make everything possible a pay per view fight. They ignored a lot of great fighters below featherweight until the last couple years, and overemphasized heavyweight. They purposely counterprogrammed events on other outlets to their gain, but the damage of the sport. Their long term fighter contracts resulted in a lot of garbage tune up fights, and prevented other big matchups. They viciously protected their status as the "big dog" in boxing, to the detriment of the sport overall.
On the other hand, there were vast periods of time when HBO money was pretty much the only money in the sport, and the gravitas of HBO all but kept boxing alive. And there's no doubt the association with HBO and the elite HBO production always gave boxing a slight sheen of credibility, which it otherwise sorely lacks.
On a purely objective level, it's actually kind of hard to make the case that there's anything bad about this. There's big time Showtime, ESPN, Fox and DAZN money in boxing now, and tons of revenues overseas as well, but no single entity like HBO that's allowed to dominate. Arum and De La Hoya have shown some willingness to make fights across promotions, and if somehow Haymen can be compelled to make fights across promotional lines, then you really could be entering a great new era.
Showtime and ESPN and DAZN etc are certainly going to do everything to protect their turf, but none of them will have the power nor the institutional dedication to hold the sport hostage the way HBO was able to for many periods of time.
And none of that makes me feel much better about losing an institution. I don't know how they're going to sign off their last fight next month, but it's going to be pretty emotional. I hope they find a way to have Larry Merchant and George Foreman in the house. Nobody but nobody is better at production than HBO, so I hope they give it a good 30 minute retrospective/goodbye.
I'm with you guys. This was sad news. HBO Boxing is really all I know. Wasn't around when there were good fights on network TV so I became a fan with Lampley, Lederman and Merchant.
http://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
That’s a huge blow to the sport imo. I’m not the world’s biggest boxing fan but when I think about boxing on tv I immediately think HBO. And now they’re ditching the sport.
That’s a huge blow to the sport imo. I’m not the world’s biggest boxing fan but when I think about boxing on tv I immediately think HBO. And now they’re ditching the sport.
More guys like Don King are why boxing isn't what it was 30 years ago.
Don King's only interest was in promoting Don King. The corruption of promoters like him and Bob Arum brought down the sport.
Agree on him bring a bad dude...but the guy could promote, you can’t deny that.
Don King, Arum, Golden Boy, crooks all of them. Before them, the sport was literally run by crooks.
The main thing for the health of the sport is whether they get the matches made that the fans want to see. That hasn't happened nearly enough in the last decade, largely due to the inability and unwillingness to book cross-promotionally. And frankly, as much as I will miss them and it is jarring, HBO was a massive part of that, and extra layer on top of simply promotions. They're somewhat related, as promotions and outlets frequently go hand in hand, but it does remove one consistent obstacle to big fights over the years.
There's still the Al Haymon/PBC issue, who have been even more unwilling to match fighters outside their banner than a traditional promoter. It's fairly obvious to me that the Haymon vision was to create boxing's version of the UFC, an entirely closed loop, but I don't think that's going to happen that way, it's by and large failed to really capture boxing fans, and Top Rank's ESPN deal and Hearn's DAZN deal make it basically impossible to totally smother the competition now.
I think they're going to have to come together to make some fights, and HBO not signing individual deals with fighters will help. Showtime still does some fighter deals, although nowhere near like HBO used to, and I haven't seen any indication that ESPN or Fox are going to do so, more likely deferring to the promoters. If PBC loosens up just a bit, things could get better.
Boxing is actually super healthy everywhere else in the world outside the US, and amazingly there's now more money in the combined budgets from TV than there's ever been, so we'll see if they can not screw it up.
The main thing for the health of the sport is whether they get the matches made that the fans want to see. That hasn't happened nearly enough in the last decade, largely due to the inability and unwillingness to book cross-promotionally. And frankly, as much as I will miss them and it is jarring, HBO was a massive part of that, and extra layer on top of simply promotions. They're somewhat related, as promotions and outlets frequently go hand in hand, but it does remove one consistent obstacle to big fights over the years.
There's still the Al Haymon/PBC issue, who have been even more unwilling to match fighters outside their banner than a traditional promoter. It's fairly obvious to me that the Haymon vision was to create boxing's version of the UFC, an entirely closed loop, but I don't think that's going to happen that way, it's by and large failed to really capture boxing fans, and Top Rank's ESPN deal and Hearn's DAZN deal make it basically impossible to totally smother the competition now.
I think they're going to have to come together to make some fights, and HBO not signing individual deals with fighters will help. Showtime still does some fighter deals, although nowhere near like HBO used to, and I haven't seen any indication that ESPN or Fox are going to do so, more likely deferring to the promoters. If PBC loosens up just a bit, things could get better.
Boxing is actually super healthy everywhere else in the world outside the US, and amazingly there's now more money in the combined budgets from TV than there's ever been, so we'll see if they can not screw it up.
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