Career boards offering advice

[GwinnettNole]

Background: I've always been interested in what the job markets are, who's hiring, what skills are needed, and advice on what kids are studing post secondary school.

I used to go to reddit, city data, etc. Except, now the boards are dominated with a few people that crap on everything. Here is some of what I'm learning:

• The only good (in the sense of finding employment after graduating) STEM major is computer science (see point 4 though).
• If you major in Chemistry (for example) and want to be a chemist you will be lucky to get a job paying $12/hour with no benefits (pretty much the same as biology).
• Asians are coming to America in droves pushing down the wages in most STEM fields and taking the jobs
• Computer science jobs are being offshored at a rate where there are very few companies hiring American workers anymore. However, you can get a job writing software but your job will be offshored when you expect to make more that 50k and work less than 80 hours a week.
• All accounting jobs will be automated in the next 10 years and we will need very few bean-counters
• The law field is completely saturated. Lawyers will start off making $30,000 (if they are lucky to get a job)
• Sales is a noble profession. Except that most sales people are thieves, you will work for a crooked sales manager, you can never take a vacation because you may miss the one client that would purchase a fortune of your goods, and..... no post secondary degree is required. You just need to bull-shit people.
• Most people with a BS end up working as a barista at Starbucks
• The only career worth pursing is being a MD. But you have to emerge yourself in the studying of medicine, where the pressure is almost unbearable, and then you work 150 hours a week in residency and then finally get to be a doctor at 40 y/o and 500k in debt.

I don't know if these are true or not but its a recurring theme I see from posters-- especially in regards to STEM careers. The posters provide links which they believe proves their case but who the hell knows if its true or not.

I guess every board becomes unbearable at one point or another-- much like why the RC forum at warchant is no longer here.

 

[RunRonnieRun]

 

[Nole Lou]

I'm absolutely sure there are challenges in all these fields, including stem. But that's flat out a lot of bellyaching.

I do think that there are a lot of people going into stem in the last 10 years who don't really feel it, because they envision graduating and walking into an easy $100k+ job. In my generation that's a lot of people went into law for the money, without really having an interest in doing it, and there are a lot of miserable lawyers in their 40s now. If you really want to be a teacher and only that, and you get an engineering or computer science degree, you're never going to be satisfied.

The reason in my mind for going into stem is not because it's super easy to get a good job, or you'll make a $150k by 25 years old. It's because stem jobs actually have some demand. If you work hard and are a quality employee, you're going to be able to make your own breaks, moving companies as you need to until you get the career you want. If you make your career repairing antique Victrolas however, the one Victrola repair shop on the East coast can treat you like crap as an employee, because whatcha gonna do?

 

[GwinnettNole]

Yeah agreed about the bellyaching. I can see being a pain in the ass in political forum but what I don't understand is the axe to grind on a career forum? Is there a purpose other than being a dick?

 

[mcgrawfsu]

I'm seeing significant increases in salaries for software developers. This goes for recent college grads to senior level.

 

[LesClaypool]

Point 4 wrong, especially under Trump. Used to be true...not true at all anymore.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Point 4 wrong, especially under Trump. Used to be true...not true at all anymore.

Trump and H1B Visas... What's the latest? Limit on people entering or offshoring work (not sure how the last is possible)? etc....

 

[fsUTampa]

In regards to Chemistry (and specifically academia), I've seen that there's roughly 500 full-time chemistry academia positions open per year, and there's roughly 2500 new Ph.D.'s graduating each year now. Given the recent cuts in funding (both public and private), I can see how the chemistry part might be on the right track.

 

[anolesfan77]

I can't speak to too many of the others, but chemistry is definitely correct. A BS in chemistry basically allows you to be a lab technician and there are lots of chemistry grads out there who feel that they deserve more than that.

Computer science is definitely not the field to get into. They are in the same boat as the chemists. I agree with the statement that lots of people who have no aptitude or overwhelming desire to be in this field are there simply because they saw it as a way to make lots of money. This just hasn't been the case for most of them because of the reasons OP has stated.

I would rather see those who are going into one of these STEM fields only for the money, learn a marketable skill such as welding, pipefitting, industrial electrical and instrumentation, or plumbing. They can, with a fraction of the investment of college, Make more money per year than the average college student in a relatively short period of time. I'm a chemical engineer and I see every day the need for good people in these trades.

 

[LesClaypool]

Computer science is definitely not the field to get into. They are in the same boat as the chemists. I agree with the statement that lots of people who have no aptitude or overwhelming desire to be in this field are there simply because they saw it as a way to make lots of money. This just hasn't been the case for most of them because of the reasons OP has stated.

i think your advice is probably well-intentioned, but it’s still terrible.

What’s a better degree to fall back on - computer science or humanities?

 

[seminole97]

Yeah agreed about the bellyaching. I can see being a pain in the ass in political forum but what I don't understand is the axe to grind on a career forum? Is there a purpose other than being a dick?

How many posts deep do you have to go in this thread to find an answer?

 

[seminole97]

Computer science is definitely not the field to get into. They are in the same boat as the chemists. I agree with the statement that lots of people who have no aptitude or overwhelming desire to be in this field are there simply because they saw it as a way to make lots of money. This just hasn't been the case for most of them because of the reasons OP has stated.

Nothing wrong with the trades you mentioned, but I would say the computer field offers a lot of entrepreneurial opportunity. There are a lot of services you can market to small businesses that can't afford full time position, and don't have the wherewithal to offshore their needs.

I'm not aware of chemistry offering those kind of niche opportunities.

 

[cfbfan23]

Nothing wrong with the trades you mentioned, but I would say the computer field offers a lot of entrepreneurial opportunity. There are a lot of services you can market to small businesses that can't afford full time position, and don't have the wherewithal to offshore their needs.

I'm not aware of chemistry offering those kind of niche opportunities.

Manufacturing Meth?

 

[Imtotallynottribe]

The legal salaries dropping has less to do with loss of jobs and more to do with an increase in %*%*y law schools. About ten years or so ago, during the Bush years when the post 9/11 job market was %*%*, everyone “solved” this lack of jobs by going back to school. Midlevel and %*%*y universities saw there was a ton of students desperate to pay $20-40k a year for three years to get a law degree so a ton of new programs opened up. Then when they all graduated they’re finding the legal market didn’t keep up with the number of %*%*y law schools.

If I’m remembering correctly, in 2001 when I was graduating law school, there were a little over 160 law schools. Now there are 237 or thereabouts and that doesn’t count all of the %+^*y law schools that open up a bunch of branch campuses.

And all these %*%*y new law schools hurt the job market. Because some people are tempted to take the valedictorian of Southwestern Piece of %*%* “University” over a middle tier FSU student or the last placed person from Harvard even though those two will be significantly smarter and better for the position. So not only are there less jobs available for the smart students who had to compete with top grades and top intelligence test results (which is all the LSAT really is), but now your entry level lawyer is likely of lesser intelligence.

(Quick sidenote on what I mean. There is a huge difference in the intelligence of the students getting into the top level of schools versus the bottom. Take the recent Michael Avenetti versus Michael Cohen public beating. Avenetti went to UPenn which is the 7th ranked law school and the median LSAT score to get in is the equivalent of a 132 IQ. Meanwhile Cohen went to the worst law school in the country at the time he was attending school and one of the worst now where the median LSAT to get in is the equivalent of a 95 IQ. So in other words, Cohen is likely below the intelligence of the average person (and that’s scary) while Avenetti is likely well above the Mensa level of top 5% of the population and is only a couple of points off the definition of a true “genius” (140).)

Whenever college students ask me if law school is the right thing for them, my answer is the same. If you can get it for under $100k at a school equal to or better than FSU then go for it. If you have to take on massive debt or go to a school below FSU then it’s time to think about a new career.

 

[seminole97]

The legal salaries dropping has less to do with loss of jobs and more to do with an increase in %*%*y law schools.

Why in your view is it the subjective quality of the law schools instead of the increased supply of lawyers?
These lawyers shoulda figured out how to overturn the law of supply and demand...

 

[mcgrawfsu]

i think your advice is probably well-intentioned, but it’s still terrible.

What’s a better degree to fall back on - computer science or humanities?

I agree. There is a massive shortage of software talent in this country. In 20 years of working in IT recruiting, I've never seen so many companies say, "just find me a college grad I can train." There are tons of IT/software jobs that are taking months to fill because the companies just can't find qualified candidates.

 

[anolesfan77]

i think your advice is probably well-intentioned, but it’s still terrible.

What’s a better degree to fall back on - computer science or humanities?

Of the two, Computer Science is a better degree to fall back on, but I think you missed my point. If you have one of these skills I pointed out, there will always be a demand for your services. It will be higher at times than others, but acquiring these skills is infinitely better than some humanities degree that millions of others have also. The initial investment is lower, the higher starting salaries are better, and the opportunities are endless for a career.

 

[fsunole025]

I agree. There is a massive shortage of software talent in this country. In 20 years of working in IT recruiting, I've never seen so many companies say, "just find me a college grad I can train." There are tons of IT/software jobs that are taking months to fill because the companies just can't find qualified candidates.

I think it's a mixture of the increased demand and the supply pool. Software is powering the world. The demand for software engineers increases daily as organizations pivot to new ideas. Companies are willing to invest in good engineering practices but they typically don't know how that actually shows up on a resume or in an interview. Especially in environments where they are expected to be collaborative and innovative. So, some are willing to take someone out of college and hope they become loyal lifers.

 

[EL73]

Background: I've always been interested in what the job markets are, who's hiring, what skills are needed, and advice on what kids are studing post secondary school.

I used to go to reddit, city data, etc. Except, now the boards are dominated with a few people that crap on everything. Here is some of what I'm learning:

• The only good (in the sense of finding employment after graduating) STEM major is computer science (see point 4 though).
• If you major in Chemistry (for example) and want to be a chemist you will be lucky to get a job paying $12/hour with no benefits (pretty much the same as biology).
• Asians are coming to America in droves pushing down the wages in most STEM fields and taking the jobs
• Computer science jobs are being offshored at a rate where there are very few companies hiring American workers anymore. However, you can get a job writing software but your job will be offshored when you expect to make more that 50k and work less than 80 hours a week.
• All accounting jobs will be automated in the next 10 years and we will need very few bean-counters
• The law field is completely saturated. Lawyers will start off making $30,000 (if they are lucky to get a job)
• Sales is a noble profession. Except that most sales people are thieves, you will work for a crooked sales manager, you can never take a vacation because you may miss the one client that would purchase a fortune of your goods, and..... no post secondary degree is required. You just need to bull-shit people.
• Most people with a BS end up working as a barista at Starbucks
• The only career worth pursing is being a MD. But you have to emerge yourself in the studying of medicine, where the pressure is almost unbearable, and then you work 150 hours a week in residency and then finally get to be a doctor at 40 y/o and 500k in debt.

I don't know if these are true or not but its a recurring theme I see from posters-- especially in regards to STEM careers. The posters provide links which they believe proves their case but who the hell knows if its true or not.

I guess every board becomes unbearable at one point or another-- much like why the RC forum at warchant is no longer here.

Sales is always a good career. The trick is to align with a company or industry that provides a needed product or service and enjoy helping customers and prospects solve their issues

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

• The only career worth pursing is being a MD. But you have to emerge yourself in the studying of medicine, where the pressure is almost unbearable, and then you work 150 hours a week in residency and then finally get to be a doctor at 40 y/o and 500k in debt.

40 is a stretch unless you are going into neurosurgery. Anyone in medicine who actually pays 500k of debt is just not taking advantage of widely available programs that will pay your entire debt if you agree to work for 5 to 10 years in a rural area.

Also, residency is by far the best part of the entire training pathway. Impossible to be a good doctor without a grueling residency IMO. It's that stress and steep learning curve which makes the profession what it is. It was exciting, terrifying and exhausting all at the same time. For all of it, I'm grateful.

 

[Random_John]

I have always been taught one needs to learn the skill of sales lest one always loses out. It's not enough to have a skill. How the hell is someone going to pay for your skill if you can't sell it?

Learn a skill, learn how to talk with people, learn how to network and youll be fine. If you want make $100k and more a year be rrasr to grind, be flexible, and lose a lot.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

What is ALWAYS needed? Think big picture. Food, housing, gasoline, electricity/utilities, banks, insurance, health care, law enforcement, education, government, funeral services, etc., etc. All of them will change, but none of them will disappear. Look for a niche in those industries that matches your interest or skill set. GET QUALIFIED. The best people always find jobs. If you are a Middle-of-the-packer (or lower) with no meaningful attributes or credentials, life can be hard.

You won’t always start at the top. Shut up, work hard, and always look for ways to improve yourself. No one said this will be easy. But it is not the Gordian knot portrayed by some.

 

[GA.NOLE]

Manufacturing Meth?

or a legal pharmacist?

 

[GA.NOLE]

What is ALWAYS needed? Think big picture. Food, housing, gasoline, electricity/utilities, banks, insurance, health care, law enforcement, education, government, funeral services, etc., etc. All of them will change, but none of them will disappear. Look for a niche in those industries that matches your interest or skill set. GET QUALIFIED. The best people always find jobs. If you are a Middle-of-the-packer (or lower) with no meaningful attributes or credentials, life can be hard.

You won’t always start at the top. Shut up, work hard, and always look for ways to improve yourself. No one said this will be easy. But it is not the Gordian knot portrayed by some.

Add CDL drivers to that category. Not for everyone no doubt but a good investment for those that can afford to buy trucks and put drivers to work.

 

[RangerNole]

All I know is if you work hard at any job and are always looking to move your career/business forward you will be successful. America is a place where you can accomplish or achieve anything if you are willing to bust your butt for it.

 

[Nole Lou]

In regards to Chemistry (and specifically academia), I've seen that there's roughly 500 full-time chemistry academia positions open per year, and there's roughly 2500 new Ph.D.'s graduating each year now. Given the recent cuts in funding (both public and private), I can see how the chemistry part might be on the right track.

I continually hear that academia in general is a career dead end, that every field has these kind of statistics in academia. I hear that tons of people that wanted to become English or History professors and the like are working 3-4 adjuct prof jobs for a pittance struggling to stay above the poverty line. Apparently the number of full time academia positions continues to decline across the board, while the same schools cutting positions turn out more and more graduates.

 

[fsUTampa]

I continually hear that academia in general is a career dead end, that every field has these kind of statistics in academia. I hear that tons of people that wanted to become English or History professors and the like are working 3-4 adjuct prof jobs for a pittance struggling to stay above the poverty line. Apparently the number of full time academia positions continues to decline across the board, while the same schools cutting positions turn out more and more graduates.

Yep. Quite a few chemistry Ph.D.s that are looking to go into academia (or hell, looking for a job period, as industry has a similar lull) usually start with a post-doc (indentured servitude that usually pays very low) and then move on to multiple adjunct positions to build up a resume/experience. Adjunct pay is really low (below the poverty line for sure). But they're "cheaper" than the full-time lines, so as long as the schools are hitting the accreditation criteria, why would they change?

 

[GwinnettNole]

All I know is if you work hard at any job and are always looking to move your career/business forward you will be successful. America is a place where you can accomplish or achieve anything if you are willing to bust your butt for it.

Hmm not so sure this is the case <anymore>.

 

[RangerNole]

Hmm not so sure this is the case <anymore>.

Do you mind expanding on this? While I agree that it is probably harder today than decades ago; success is mostly determined by your willingness to work for it.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Do you mind expanding on this? While I agree that it is probably harder today than decades ago; success is mostly determined by your willingness to work for it.

Sure. An example is someone that works his butt off in college, gets a masters and then PHD in Chemistry and is stuck without a teaching position because there just isn’t enough open positions. So he has to go work on the bench making a small amount of money (from the OP there is talk that bench jobs at a lab pay barely above minimum wage). I don’t think this guy would agree that “hard work”, which he’s done made him a recipient of the American Dream.

Case 2- a guy who does not go to a prototypical college but instead goes to a technical trade school and learns to be a plumber. I know we hear often that we need more people going to trade schools to learn a skill but there are indicators that plumbing just isn’t in demand today. So he works his butt off learning the trade and ends up with a below avg job making 30k. working for a plumbing company. What does he do now? Go learn another trade? What trades are in demand? I don’t know.

I’m not saying the America Dream is dead. But this isn’t the 1950’s or 1980’s anymore. A college degree is not a ticket to a corner office. Nor is there indicators that trades + hard work will equal the mantra of achieveing anything.

 

[SoddyNole]

Sure. An example is someone that works his butt off in college, gets a masters and then PHD in Chemistry and is stuck without a teaching position because there just isn’t enough open positions. So he has to go work on the bench making a small amount of money (from the OP there is talk that bench jobs at a lab pay barely above minimum wage). I don’t think this guy would agree that “hard work”, which he’s done made him a recipient of the American Dream.

Case 2- a guy who does not go to a prototypical college but instead goes to a technical trade school and learns to be a plumber. I know we hear often that we need more people going to trade schools to learn a skill but there are indicators that plumbing just isn’t in demand today. So he works his butt off learning the trade and ends up with a below avg job making 30k. working for a plumbing company. What does he do now? Go learn another trade? What trades are in demand? I don’t know.

I’m not saying the America Dream is dead. But this isn’t the 1950’s or 1980’s anymore. A college degree is not a ticket to a corner office. Nor is there indicators that trades + hard work will equal the mantra of achieveing anything.

Both people have jobs, how is that not a success?

If wanting more money is the issue, climb the ladder of academia or start your own plumbing company. Honestly, plumbing company owner is most likely a much more lucrative position than academia. But it will take investment, hard work and a lot of aggravation and risks involved with dealing with a small business most people simply do not want to fool with. Make your passion what you do and where you want to go and stay patient, determined and focused.

Not wanting to fool with a small business is ok too. Some people simply want to just do their job and call it a day. If the goal is to put in your time and maintain productivity to keep your job and spend the rest of your energy with family, travel or helping your community how is that not a success? With successful people doing your job is not the goal it is merely a starting point. We have a great advantage over other generations. We can access a wealth of knowledge and gather insight and opinions on any given topic at a moments notice. Back in the 50's & 80's you were more likely to go into a situation with very limited information.

Maybe you are blind to success or it hasn't found you but believe me there are a lot of successful people are out there making it work. It will never be guaranteed and definitely not easy and often requires sacrifice but if so many others can achieve it, you can as well. The first step is recognizing opportunity which is difficult to do. It often comes dressed in overalls and looks like effort and missed by many.

 

[Nole Lou]

I’m not saying the America Dream is dead. But this isn’t the 1950’s or 1980’s anymore. A college degree is not a ticket to a corner office. Nor is there indicators that trades + hard work will equal the mantra of achieveing anything.

Yep. The new piece over when I was a kid is that you have to be smart and strategic.

I fully believe that you can still make it in America. But the old mantra of "work your butt off and you will find success" regardless of field or where you start, just isn't true anymore (if it ever was).

Yes, you have to be willing to work, nothing is handed to you, but working hard is not enough. Taking on a mountain of debt for a degree in a field with extremely low job potential can easily put you in a position you can't "hard work" your way out of.

That can be ok...the big issue is that many times this whole thing is put in motion by the decisions at 16 or 17 years of age, and besides kids that age being dumb, they are being bombarded with marketing and advice to do the exact opposite of what is a responsible plan. Most of their parents are still from the "pick something you like, and if you work hard you'll be a success" school of thought.

Most wouldn't imagine for example that universities are KNOWINGLY awarding 10x more PHDs than are possibly employable...that the very universities that are encouraging to pursue their passion for literature at the same time KNOW they will not be hiring the graduates. There's an almost scam-like element to some of this stuff, and somehow teenagers are supposed to know all that before the age we trust them to buy a lottery ticket or go to an R-rated movie themselves.

So it's more like hard work + strategy + responsible decision-making = success.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Both people have jobs, how is that not a success?

If wanting more money is the issue, climb the ladder of academia or start your own plumbing company. Honestly, plumbing company owner is most likely a much more lucrative position than academia. But it will take investment, hard work and a lot of aggravation and risks involved with dealing with a small business most people simply do not want to fool with. Make your passion what you do and where you want to go and stay patient, determined and focused.

Not wanting to fool with a small business is ok too. Some people simply want to just do their job and call it a day. If the goal is to put in your time and maintain productivity to keep your job and spend the rest of your energy with family, travel or helping your community how is that not a success? With successful people doing your job is not the goal it is merely a starting point. We have a great advantage over other generations. We can access a wealth of knowledge and gather insight and opinions on any given topic at a moments notice. Back in the 50's & 80's you were more likely to go into a situation with very limited information.

Maybe you are blind to success or it hasn't found you but believe me there are a lot of successful people are out there making it work. It will never be guaranteed and definitely not easy and often requires sacrifice but if so many others can achieve it, you can as well. The first step is recognizing opportunity which is difficult to do. It often comes dressed in overalls and looks like effort and missed by many.

Soddy-
I highly doubt a Phd scientist working a bench job would categorize their chosen field of study and subsequent job a success. Read the message boards it's on reddit. (Career guidance subreddit), quora and city-data. The American Dream does not exist for them. Same as the plumber. Rolling up your sleeves, and working hard was not a path to success for either one of these guys. Perhaps you never had this type of situation-- I don't know. But I would bet there are many people who do not categorize this as a success. It's the actual reason for the OP-- the overwhelming negativity about careers and the job market.

I like Lou's post regarding strategic planning for a career. The days of picking any field to study, working hard and enjoying the American Dream does not exist anymore.

 

[LesClaypool]

It is known that there are WAY too many PhD's. It has been known for quite a while.

Hard to feel bad for someone who goes that route.

Also, and this will obviously not be a popular opinion w/plenty of people, but generalizing...PhD's are generally people who can't cut it in the real world and stayed in school as long as possible b/c they didn't/don't want to really work.

 

[Nole Lou]

It is known that there are WAY too many PhD's. It has been known for quite a while.

Well known to 17 year olds? To working class people who've never known a PhD? That's an absurd statement.

It's only well known to people who actively pay attention to such things, and most people don't. If it's well known that there are too many, why are universities still accepting students? Why are high school counselors still talking about them? That is absolutely not "well known" just because you and I know it, especially to kids that literally aren't deemed old enough to drive at night.

As a society we lose our mind making sure every teenager knows not put a tide pod in their mouth or to eat GMOs. But the educational industrial complex continues to market and encourage incredibly destructive behavior with very little official pushback from anywhere.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I think the higher ed system needs an overhaul. Yes, students are responsible for their own choices, but these institutions are doing a huge disservice to many kids. They’re coming out in a hole that’s tough to get out of.

As far as hard work and how to make it in life, I’ve started telling my kids it’s already difficult enough, so don’t make it worse by creating your own obstacles. Get good grades, don’t have babies in high school, don’t get caught up in drugs, no neck tattoos, etc etc.

Once you’re in a career, I think too many people don’t know how to manage office politics.

 

[OrlandNole]

My advice: Don't take out student loans. Get financial aid, get a job, live within your means, avoid debt at all cost.

Make sure your chosen career path is in line with your income and lifestyle expectation. If you major in art, be prepared to have a low five figure income for most of your life.

 

[SoddyNole]

Soddy-
I highly doubt a Phd scientist working a bench job would categorize their chosen field of study and subsequent job a success. Read the message boards it's on reddit. (Career guidance subreddit), quora and city-data. The American Dream does not exist for them. Same as the plumber. Rolling up your sleeves, and working hard was not a path to success for either one of these guys. Perhaps you never had this type of situation-- I don't know. But I would bet there are many people who do not categorize this as a success. It's the actual reason for the OP-- the overwhelming negativity about careers and the job market.

I like Lou's post regarding strategic planning for a career. The days of picking any field to study, working hard and enjoying the American Dream does not exist anymore.

Are we talking about you or some unknown poster from another board?

 

[GwinnettNole]

Are we talking about you or some unknown poster from another board?

Not me, but I am personally aware of chemistry and biology PHDs having major problems with finding work.... "wrong decision of a lifetime" despite all the hard work did not equate to them thinking their career is a success.

 

[Nole Lou]

My advice: Don't take out student loans. Get financial aid, get a job, live within your means, avoid debt at all cost.

Make sure your chosen career path is in line with your income and lifestyle expectation. If you major in art, be prepared to have a low five figure income for most of your life.

Yep. We've been extremely hawkish about student loans with our kids...no loans for undergrad, and a clear budget of what we could afford. They can go anywhere they want...as long as it's the handful of places they can go for a certain amount per year. I'm just not going to let my kids adopt a $1000/mo+ nut for 10+ years of their life because they just love the fitness center or the latte station at such and such school. It's incredibly irresponsible from my perspective.

I try to explain to them what that means, it's not just a dollar figure. It will dictate your choices the rest of your life. What first job you can take, where you live, even when you decide to start a family. You might have to give up a dream job opportunity, or have a 50 minute commute, because of that decision.

If you're in a position to stroke a $50k check every year for four years for all your kids, that's one thing. I wouldn't even if I could, but I don't have a problem with someone doing that. But it really bothers me how casually people let their teenagers take on life-altering debt.