For the poors with smart kids

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I'm neither a victim nor tired. Most definitely the product of privilege, which I'd like to see extended to more people.

What Rice and other universities are doing is great, providing elite education to qualified applicants who otherwise a) couldn't afford it or b) would suffocate in debt will create a new and diverse tranche of wealthy Americans, academics, entrepreneurs, scientists, etc... all of which are a benefit to our GDP, tax base, and the long term viability of the nation as a global leader.

Getting an elite education can't just be the domain of the already elite in a country that seeks to continuously improve the standard of living for all its people.

Got it, but should the working well-to-do have to wipe out savings so their kids can attend the same schools?

The problem I see is under the Rice plan the accountant making $215 a year for a family of 5 is lumped into the same “no tuition break” category as the hedge fund billionaire or energy company CEO.

 

[surfnole]

That's not bad at all.

Not on the level of Rice by any means, but Alabama has automatic full-tuition scholarships for hitting a certain SAT, no income consideration. The scores are pretty high, but not crazy high. Not the kind of scores that get you full-tuition rides and similar schools...talking like 1400/33, that kind of thing.

Another option to consider.

We've got to be at the critical mass of insane college costs...eventually competition for students is going to have to force more deals like this.

The government needs to get out of the student loan business. That is providing loans to people with no/limited ability to pay them back. In the same way the government helped fund the housing price boom around 2006-2008, they are funding the college tuition boom today.

How else do you explain that tuition has risen far faster than the rate of inflation? It's not like medicine where there have been great technological leaps.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Got it, but should the working well-to-do have to wipe out savings so their kids can attend the same schools?

The problem I see is under the Rice plan the accountant making $215 a year for a family of 5 is lumped into the same “no tuition break” category as the hedge fund billionaire or energy company CEO.

Oh I agree. I'm sure there are ways to structure thing on more of a needs / net-worth basis, but regardless what Rice (and others) are doing is a distinct step in the right direction.

I'd rather some movement in the right direction than none at all. Change and improvement are iterative processes.

 

[RTM58]

I'm neither a victim nor tired. Most definitely the product of privilege, which I'd like to see extended to more people.

What Rice and other universities are doing is great, providing elite education to qualified applicants who otherwise a) couldn't afford it or b) would suffocate in debt will create a new and diverse tranche of wealthy Americans, academics, entrepreneurs, scientists, etc... all of which are a benefit to our GDP, tax base, and the long term viability of the nation as a global leader.

Getting an elite education can't just be the domain of the already elite in a country that seeks to continuously improve the standard of living for all its people.

No, but your posts assume everyone else is. That makes me tired. Is that the low bar privilege or the high bar privilege? Asking for a friend. This kinda drivel hurts my head.

The government needs to get out of the student loan business.

How else do you explain that tuition has risen far faster than the rate of inflation? It's not like medicine where there have been great technological leaps.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

No, but your posts assume everyone else is. That makes me tired. Is that the low bar privilege or the high bar privilege? Asking for a friend. This kinda drivel hurts my head.

I'm sorry if it makes you tired.

The fact remains, there are millions of Americans who are handcuffed by inequalities in justice, education, healthcare, etc... and as the most prosperous nation in the history of the world, it seems like it would make sense that we seek to fulfill the wishes of our Founding Fathers in continuing to seek a more just, more prosperous, more perfect union.

Rice, among others, are taking a step in that direction but helping those at an economic disadvantage gain access to the same type of education as our economic elites. I can't for the life of me find even one reason to say that is a bad thing.

If my dedication to to the American ideals of equality and justice give you a headache, I'm not sure what to tell you. Advil is your friend but please follow the appropriate dosing instructions.

I also find that drinking more water helps with the symptoms of fatigue and headaches.

 

[89nole]

Got it, but should the working well-to-do have to wipe out savings so their kids can attend the same schools?

The problem I see is under the Rice plan the accountant making $215 a year for a family of 5 is lumped into the same “no tuition break” category as the hedge fund billionaire or energy company CEO.

Thats what big state U is for. Most are still affordable.

 

[89nole]

Also Rice is a tiny school its not like FSU or UT is doing this. Its going to be a small group.

 

[RTM58]

I'm sorry if it makes you tired.

The fact remains, there are millions of Americans who are handcuffed by inequalities in justice, education, healthcare, etc... and as the most prosperous nation in the history of the world, it seems like it would make sense that we seek to fulfill the wishes of our Founding Fathers in continuing to seek a more just, more prosperous, more perfect union.

Rice, among others, are taking a step in that direction but helping those at an economic disadvantage gain access to the same type of education as our economic elites. I can't for the life of me find even one reason to say that is a bad thing.

If my dedication to to the American ideals of equality and justice give you a headache, I'm not sure what to tell you. Advil is your friend but please follow the appropriate dosing instructions.

I also find that drinking more water helps with the symptoms of fatigue and headaches.

So I'm going to go with low bar privilege. Why do all of the pizza cooks work so hard pretending they're michelin chef.....

 

[ReliableOstrich]

So I'm going to go with low bar privilege.

Not even sure what this "low bar privilege" phrase means. Either way, if you're trying to miss the point, you're doing a great job. If you're trying to derail the thread, not so much.

 

[Hopkins Medicine]

On a side note, I think as a parent it would be ridiculous to take out loans to go to a brand name school if you have a full scholarship from a lesser tier option.

Example: let's say you can take out 100k in loans to go to Stanford, or you can pay zero dollars to go to FSU. Let's assume the parents are "poor" and make "only" 70k.

IMO it's a no brainer to go for FSU. Sure, it's not Stanford but 100k debt is ridiculous and Stanford is not worth 100k to a family of limited means.

Your success in life is determined by what YOU do, not by what your college does. I met a bunch of people from Ivy leagues in med school but after getting to know them well it became obvious to me that they were going to be superstars regardless of whether they went to Harvard or FSU. The college they went to did not have much of an influence on their success.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Thats what big state U is for. Most are still affordable.

So the elite schools

So I'm going to go with low bar privilege. Why do all of the pizza cooks work so hard pretending they're michelin chef.....

Who is this? Looks familiar.

 

[RTM58]

On a side note, I think as a parent it would be ridiculous to take out loans to go to a brand name school if you have a full scholarship from a lesser tier option.

Your success in life is determined by what YOU do, not by what your college does. I met a bunch of people from Ivy leagues in med school but after getting to know them well it became obvious to me that they were going to be superstars regardless of whether they went to Harvard or FSU. The college they went to did not have much of an influence on their success.

As usual, this guy gets it!
Your attitude will determine your altitude. - Zig Ziglar

I will say that if you're brilliant taking on a $100k or $200k may be worth it. You're buying a 5 to 10 year head start/advantage. A buddy took on $160k at Georgetown law. He didn't seem to think it was that hard to pay back. Another acquaintance did the same at MIT wth the same results. Oddly enough, they were both handcuffed by inequalities in justice, education, healthcare, etc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Who is this? Looks familiar.

Looks a little like Maria Menounos in that pic, but it's not.

https://twitter.com/CherylOfficial

 

[nole71911]

It’s a shame it’s so expensive. If you look at the Rice example above they’re considering the all in per year cost at around $60,000. But people making $201,000 and up get no break. That’s a huge hit for someone in that income range.

You just really have to plan ahead with 529s and college savings plans .

Yeah I have had one since my daughter got her social security card. We put a healthy chunk of change in there a month. My goal is to have about $150K by time she is 18.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

On a side note, I think as a parent it would be ridiculous to take out loans to go to a brand name school if you have a full scholarship from a lesser tier option.

Example: let's say you can take out 100k in loans to go to Stanford, or you can pay zero dollars to go to FSU. Let's assume the parents are "poor" and make "only" 70k.

IMO it's a no brainer to go for FSU. Sure, it's not Stanford but 100k debt is ridiculous and Stanford is not worth 100k to a family of limited means.

Your success in life is determined by what YOU do, not by what your college does. I met a bunch of people from Ivy leagues in med school but after getting to know them well it became obvious to me that they were going to be superstars regardless of whether they went to Harvard or FSU. The college they went to did not have much of an influence on their success.

That's an idealistically delightful anecdote and perhaps, at best, it's true in the world of medicine.
But you can't overstate the value of an elite university if you want to get into business, politics, science, entrepreneurship, finance, tech, etc... The network alone is of significant value, not to mention the validation of the name brand.

Some folks will be destined for greatness either way but attending an elite university greatly increases those chances and remove obstacles, esp if you happen not to be a savant.

I would absolutely take on $100k in debt if it meant the difference between my kid going to Stanford or FSU.

 

[Nole Lou]

Thats what big state U is for. Most are still affordable.

We disagree about the definition of affordable. A $120-150k nut is far from affordable for everyone. Nearly half a million for three kids when the median income is around $60k stretches the term affordable in my mind.

 

[mcgrawfsu]

On a side note, I think as a parent it would be ridiculous to take out loans to go to a brand name school if you have a full scholarship from a lesser tier option.

Example: let's say you can take out 100k in loans to go to Stanford, or you can pay zero dollars to go to FSU. Let's assume the parents are "poor" and make "only" 70k.

IMO it's a no brainer to go for FSU. Sure, it's not Stanford but 100k debt is ridiculous and Stanford is not worth 100k to a family of limited means.

Your success in life is determined by what YOU do, not by what your college does. I met a bunch of people from Ivy leagues in med school but after getting to know them well it became obvious to me that they were going to be superstars regardless of whether they went to Harvard or FSU. The college they went to did not have much of an influence on their success.

I would say it depends on your field. A GT Computer Science grad is going to make more right out of school than a grad of UCF, FSU, UF, etc. Long term, it may not make a difference, but short term, lots of companies will base who they interview based on where they went to school.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

We disagree about the definition of affordable. A $120-150k nut is far from affordable for everyone. Nearly half a million for three kids when the median income is around $60k stretches the term affordable in my mind.

Where are you getting the $120-150K figure, Lou? My understanding is that the annual tuition at FSU is about $7K.

 

[Nole Lou]

FSU is one of the most affordable by far, but the COA is $22K/year. That's what it will cost roughly to go to "big state U" if you don't happen to live in Tallahassee.

But Clemson for example is $30k/yr, which is where most of them are. UCLA is $34k/yr. Penn State is $36k/yr.

No, that's certainly not the cheapest way to go to college, you could go community college, or some secondary university in the state system...but the COA for most "big state u" universities is about $120k for four years.

I think that's too much, and not really the affordable option state schools were meant to be. Cutting a check for $30k every year is brutal even for someone "rich" making $100k a year. Can it be done? Sure, but I don't think it's really the state's job to make big state u only affordable to people that whose parents were able to start savings at birth, or only have one kid, or waited until their mid thirties to have kids.

I do very well into the six figures, and I can't put three kids through at that price tag, and I'm not letting them pull massive student debt. I'm lucky they were smart enough to qualify for scholarships (thankful to Georgia's Zell Miller), but if they were 15% dumber they'd be going to a regional second tier school.

To me, if you can get into your state's flagship public school, you should be able to afford to go. Obviously, there are programs for true low income students, but $30k a year just isn't plausible for a ton of people well above poverty level, and $70k in student loans to graduate from big state u isn't moral.

 

[surfnole]

That's an idealistically delightful anecdote and perhaps, at best, it's true in the world of medicine.
But you can't overstate the value of an elite university if you want to get into business, politics, science, entrepreneurship, finance, tech, etc... The network alone is of significant value, not to mention the validation of the name brand.

Some folks will be destined for greatness either way but attending an elite university greatly increases those chances and remove obstacles, esp if you happen not to be a savant.

I would absolutely take on $100k in debt if it meant the difference between my kid going to Stanford or FSU.

I think this is true if you can get into Stanford and if the student is willing to take out the loan and major in something that will pay. However you are talking about 10, maybe 20 universities in the US. At the other extreme we have kids taking out loans to go to for profit schools like Phoenix which is absurd. A friend of mine borrowed more than 100K to go to dental school and now he probably makes 3-5 times that per year.

Two years at a JUCO and two years at State U is just fine for most, particularly if you are going to stay in the local area after graduation.

 

[surfnole]

There was a time when you could work your way through college because it wasn't so expensive. My friend's dad, who recently passed away, put himself through med school working as a shoe salesman. This was back in the late 50s, early 60s.

Again, the government has done no favors financing student debt. Its simply inflated the cost of college. Also, colleges are too focused on research and not on teaching. What a great deal they have. State U packs 1000 students into an auditorium, charges each $200 per cred hour, and pays a graduate assistant 20 bucks an hour to teach them.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

There was a time when you could work your way through college because it wasn't so expensive. My friend's dad, who recently passed away, put himself through med school working as a shoe salesman. This was back in the late 50s, early 60s.

Again, the government has done no favors financing student debt. Its simply inflated the cost of college. Also, colleges are too focused on research and not on teaching. What a great deal they have. State U packs 1000 students into an auditorium, charges each $200 per cred hour, and pays a graduate assistant 20 bucks an hour to teach them.

The idea of working your way though college isn't non-existent but it has changed dramatically...

From the New Republic from 2015..

Each year, the average student spends 1,020 hours studying and in class. The average full-time American employee works 2,000 hours a year.
----------
In 1979, it took a student working at minimum wage ($2.90 per hour) 385.5 hours to pay off one year of the average college tuition.
If a student worked a full-time job (40 hours a week) for an entire summer, he or she would have worked 480 hours.
----------
Today, it takes 2,229 hours working at the federal minimum wage ($7.25 per hour) to pay off one year of the average college tuition.

To be both enrolled in school full-time and work enough at $7.25 per hour to pay off one year of the average college tuition would take a student 3,249 hours.
The average American is awake for 6,278 hours each year.
----------
It would take 7,049 hours to work off one-year’s tuition at Columbia at $7.25 per hour. There are 8,760 hours in a year.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

The $34K number that UCLA advertises is notoriously inflated, and it reflects a student who chooses a top tier dorm with a top tier meal plan, who buys and keeps a lot of very expensive textbooks, drops a couple of hundred bucks on discretionary spending each month, and who does not receive any grants, scholarships, or waivers. The vast majority of our in-state students are spending a lot less than that. The average debt at graduation is about $21K, and I think the default rate on UCLA student loans is less than 2%.

Personally, I do not think that parents should be paying for their children's college education, but I understand that to be a minority opinion.

 

[RTM58]

The idea of working your way though college isn't non-existent but it has changed dramatically...

From the New Republic from 2015..

Each year, the average student spends 1,020 hours studying and in class. The average full-time American employee works 2,000 hours a year.
----------
In 1979, it took a student working at minimum wage ($2.90 per hour) 385.5 hours to pay off one year of the average college tuition.
If a student worked a full-time job (40 hours a week) for an entire summer, he or she would have worked 480 hours.
----------
Today, it takes 2,229 hours working at the federal minimum wage ($7.25 per hour) to pay off one year of the average college tuition.

To be both enrolled in school full-time and work enough at $7.25 per hour to pay off one year of the average college tuition would take a student 3,249 hours.
The average American is awake for 6,278 hours each year.
----------
It would take 7,049 hours to work off one-year’s tuition at Columbia at $7.25 per hour. There are 8,760 hours in a year.

I did it in the 90's (paid 100%, no loans) without breaking a sweat while picking up two degrees at FSU. I didn't find out that I couldn't do it until discussing college with a couple Brown grads decade after graduation. I'm sure you can imagine the surprise on my face. Glad I only met them post graduation.

My friend's kid is basically doing it today at FSU. Dad kicks in some rent money and mom kick in some tuition money, he covers the gap. It's not that his parents wouldn't give him more, he apparently doesn't feel he needs it. I think he has some very small student loans, but nothing worth mentioning. He is going into his senior year and just land a job for next year ($90k) via an internship at JP Morgan this summer he applied for online. Impressively, he did it all while being handcuffed by inequalities in justice, education, healthcare, etc. The reason most people don't recognize an opportunity when they meet it is because it usually goes around wearing overalls and looking like hard work. He gets a kick out of people like you, and your sources.

Are the kids in your example parentless and handicapped. I made more than $7.25 hr over twenty five years ago fresh out of high school.

Nobody has to pay full fright at Columbia University. Of all the Columbia grads I know, maybe one person did but his dad ran a Fortune 500 company.

We BOTH think your sources need to get out of the PR room and into the real world so they can smell the flowers/opportunity.

 

[Fijimn]

The $34K number that UCLA advertises is notoriously inflated, and it reflects a student who chooses a top tier dorm with a top tier meal plan, who buys and keeps a lot of very expensive textbooks, drops a couple of hundred bucks on discretionary spending each month, and who does not receive any grants, scholarships, or waivers. The vast majority of our in-state students are spending a lot less than that. The average debt at graduation is about $21K, and I think the default rate on UCLA student loans is less than 2%.

Personally, I do not think that parents should be paying for their children's college education, but I understand that to be a minority opinion.

I could drop a couple grand on burritos from Tito’s is I went to UCLA

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I could drop a couple grand on burritos from Tito’s is I went to UCLA

Man, I am headed to Tito’s right now! I already took the 4th off for this:
http://www.titosfiestamexicana.com/

 

[Banditking]

On a side note, I think as a parent it would be ridiculous to take out loans to go to a brand name school if you have a full scholarship from a lesser tier option.

Example: let's say you can take out 100k in loans to go to Stanford, or you can pay zero dollars to go to FSU. Let's assume the parents are "poor" and make "only" 70k.

IMO it's a no brainer to go for FSU. Sure, it's not Stanford but 100k debt is ridiculous and Stanford is not worth 100k to a family of limited means.

Your success in life is determined by what YOU do, not by what your college does. I met a bunch of people from Ivy leagues in med school but after getting to know them well it became obvious to me that they were going to be superstars regardless of whether they went to Harvard or FSU. The college they went to did not have much of an influence on their success.

Med school is a weird place. It’s paint by numbers. Volunteer at the right place. Get a little research experience, shadow some physicians, don’t fail organic chem and score reasonably on the MCAT and you’ll get in.

But, in other professions that pay a lot, especially things like entrepreneurial roles, there is a massive advantage to going to somewhere like Stanford. It has nothing to do with the quality of education and everything to do with being surrounded by a wealthy peer group.