Kate Spade Suicide
- Thread starter nynole1
- Start date
To extend an involuntary hold beyond 72 hours requires a court order and an independent assessment.
Required a second opinion from another psychiatrist ( which out of the five years I have been working In a CSU i have never seen the second psychiatrist go against the first opinion) and a court date. Which for us is every wed at our faculty so if u are filed on a tue, you are not seeing the judge until the following week. So yes you will be there longer then 72 hours. So the 72 hour just means you either need to be released, voluntary or filed on by then. You more than likely will not be i front of a judge till days after you have been filed on
Yes, sad. I guess the only positive is that it couldn't have come as a complete out of nowhere surprise for her daughter. I'm sure it was still heartbreaking, but at 13, she must have been well aware of the pain and problems around her mother. It's something she'll carry forever though, I'm sure.
Losing a parent to suicide is awful, and I personally have a couple friends to whom that’s happened too.
If there is a difference between Kate’s daughter and my friends, Kate’s daughter is a multi - billionaire. Of course she would give it back for a relationship with a healthy mother, but
It must be a powerful thing because life is precious. I always think about babies/children that are born with or develop terminal conditions. They and their families would give anything for more time, yet you have people who end their voluntarily. What a world we live in.
Completely agree. A old friend of ours committed suicide just recently, shot herself. She had depression but stopped taking meds because she thought people would think less of her. For Gods sakes... mental illness is so misunderstood by people.
I wonder of the recent mass school shootings ( or any mass shootings for that matter) the person doing the shooting would be diagnosed as having a form of mental illness?
Last edited:
By definition, mentally well people don’t commit mass murder.
Per the CDC: Suicide has increased by 25% in the US since 1999 and is a top 10 leading cause of death.
I suppose not surprising for a nation with decaying infrastructure for education or mental health, coupled with a growing wealth gap, and prevalence of prescrip med use.
Most common method is by firearm (50% of suicides), followed by hanging/suffocation and poisoning. Opiods were a present in 31% of those who poisoned themselves.
54% of those who committed suicide did not have a known mental health condition.
Veteran 10% more likely than civilians.
I suppose not surprising for a nation with decaying infrastructure for education or mental health, coupled with a growing wealth gap, and prevalence of prescrip med use.
Most common method is by firearm (50% of suicides), followed by hanging/suffocation and poisoning. Opiods were a present in 31% of those who poisoned themselves.
54% of those who committed suicide did not have a known mental health condition.
Veteran 10% more likely than civilians.
Yep. Plenty of factors make this make sense. The relatively wide availability of guns and pills, the normalization of suicide at end of life, the virtual disappearance of the religious convictions against suicide, the growth in opioid addiction.
And don't discount the the funhouse mirror of social media, which likely exaggerates peoples' feelings of inadequacy and depression as well. It's also a pretty well established fact that suicide is contagious, leading to a longstanding policy of the media not reporting on suicides of non-celebrities. Social media pretty much makes an end-run around that "hush hush" of suicide as well, so if there were NO other factors changed than the rise of social media, I'd expect an increase due to that alone.
Really spiked post 2007, 1999 was historically low year. Spikes tend to be economy related if I remember correctly. That said we are about where we were 1950. I would expect the numbers to begin receding again. Firearms make 50% of the total because guys are less vain (not a gender shot) and tend to focus on efficiency.
I'm getting sadder and angrier the more I think about Bourdain.
Just devastating news.
He was the anti-celebrity.
DAMN IT!
Just devastating news.
He was the anti-celebrity.
DAMN IT!
And boom goes the dynamite. Anxiety meds found at the scene of her suicide. Once the benzos turn on you it's almost impossible to find your way out. Unfortunately we will probably find out the same situation with Bourdain...
Benzos are more commonly referred to as anxiety meds this my assumption. Most like with her history she was probably taking both which is even worse...
Something like 80% of the military is non-combat roles.
I suspect the veteran suicide rate isn't evenly distributed across MOS.
Benzodiazepines Do Not Cause Suicide or Suicide Attempts.
Rothschild AJ, Shindul-Rothschild JA.
Prim Care Companion CNS Disord. 2017 Oct 5;19(5). pii: 17lr02171. doi: 10.4088/PCC.17lr02171. PMID: 29022652
"The totality of the reliable scientific evidence does not support the conclusion that benzodiazepines are associated with, let alone causally associated with, an increased risk of suicide or suicide attempts."
Rothschild AJ, Shindul-Rothschild JA.
Prim Care Companion CNS Disord. 2017 Oct 5;19(5). pii: 17lr02171. doi: 10.4088/PCC.17lr02171. PMID: 29022652
"The totality of the reliable scientific evidence does not support the conclusion that benzodiazepines are associated with, let alone causally associated with, an increased risk of suicide or suicide attempts."
I don't know who this guy is but he's full of manure. There are too many case studies that prove otherwise. This is like one guy out of thousands saying that global warming isn't an issue. I can find thousands of these...
Sign in to NCBI
PubMed
US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
Search database
Search term
Result Filters
Send to
Prim Care Companion CNS Disord. 2017 Mar 2;19(2). doi: 10.4088/PCC.16r02037.
Prescribed Benzodiazepines and Suicide Risk: A Review of the Literature.
Dodds TJ1,2.
Author information
Abstract
Objective:
To evaluate whether prescribed benzodiazepines affect one's risk of suicide.
Data Sources:
A PubMed search of English-language publications from database inception until October 11, 2016, was conducted using the terms benzodiazepine and suicide. References and related articles were also searched to yield additional publications.
Study Selection/Data Extraction:
Studies were included if they addressed the relationship between suicidal behavior and the prescribed use of either specific benzodiazepines or benzodiazepines as a class. A total of 17 studies were included in this review.
Results:
The majority of studies found that benzodiazepines were associated with increased suicide risk. This finding was consistent across various populations and different types of research, including a placebo-controlled crossover trial, a laboratory model of suicidal behavior, case-control studies regarding completed suicides on inpatient units, and large naturalistic studies.
Conclusions:
Benzodiazepines appear to cause an overall increase in the risk of attempting or completing suicide. Possible mechanisms of prosuicidal effects may include increases in impulsivity or aggression, rebound or withdrawal symptoms, and toxicity in overdose.
© Copyright 2017 Physicians Postgraduate Press, Inc.
Comment in
- Benzodiazepines Do Not Cause Suicide or Suicide Attempts. [Prim Care Companion CNS Disord. 2017]
28257172
DOI:
10.4088/PCC.16r02037
Last edited:
I am not surprised that you do not know who AJ Rothschild is, as you are clearly completely unfamiliar with the research on this topic. I am, however, surprised that you did not recognize his name and that you think that he is full of manure, because he and his work are cited in the paper you linked.
Regardless, Dr. Rothschild is the chair of the department of psychiatry at the UMASS medical school. He is also the director of the Center for Psychopharmacologic Research & Treatment, and he literally wrote the Clinical Manual for the Diagnosis and Treatment of Psychotic Depression and The Evidence-Based Guide to Antidepressant Medication. He has published over 120 peer-reviewed studies of the effects of psychiatric medications and has been awarded essentially every award in the field of psychiatry.
Do you know who TJ Dodds, the author of the study you linked, is? I don't, and nobody I know in the mental health field knows who he is either. He apparently has no institutional affiliation, and this article is literally the only one that he has published on the topic. Your analogy is correct, if you swap the authors in question: you have found the Andy Wakefield of benzodiazepines, except with fewer credentials and less experience. His article that you posted would not be considered passable work in any undergraduate research methods class. He apparently does not even grasp the high school level distinction between correlation and causation.
I would think that you were trolling by posting the article you chose, if I did not have a more probable explanation: you did not even take a cursory glance at the Rothschild article. If you had, then you would have seen that it is a direct and comprehensive refutation of precisely the article you posted. As you apparently can not be bothered to do even the most basic due diligence, I will excerpt another relevant passage:
"In his review, Dr Dodds failed to include or cite several important published literature reviews8,9 that do not substantiate the argument that benzodiazepines are associated with rage attacks, physical assault, self-destructive behavior, or depression.
Studies such as ours2 and others,10 which allowed for the assessment of behavioral disturbances in a high-risk population under 24-hour observation, found no increased risk of suicide or suicide attempts in patients taking benzodiazepines. A third study11 done in 47 psychiatric hospitals in Germany, which Dr Dodds mistakenly used to support his opinion that benzodiazepines are associated with an increased risk of suicide or suicide attempts, also did not conclude that there was an increased risk of suicide or suicide attempts in patients taking benzodiazepines.
The invocation by Dr Dodds of the Bradford-Hill criteria for causation12 is inappropriate because no statistically significant association of benzodiazepines with an increased risk of suicide or suicide attempts was reported by Dr Dodds. No meta-analysis was done. If no statistically significant positive association is found, it cannot be said that exposure to the drug is associated in any way with the outcome, much less that cause and effect has been established. The analysis of potential causality would be over; there is no causality.13"
It is not a coincidence that you happened to post exactly the article that was being directly and completely rebutted in the article that I posted. You found literally the one study in the entire research literature on the topic that supports your superstition, and that one study has been wholly discredited. You are the one in the company of climate change deniers and anti-vaxxers.
You will notice that Dr. Rothschild did not say that the "majority" or the "preponderance" of the scientific evidence does not support the conclusion that benzodiazepines increase the risk of suicide. He said the "totality" of the scientific evidence does not support the conclusion that benzodiazepines are even associated with an increased risk of suicide. That means literally "all" of the scientific evidence is counter to your superstition.
Last edited:
I don't need to read the article because it's bulldung. I can speak from my own personal experience and from the experiences of others I've come to know in support groups. People like you and Rothchild who are in denial only contribute to the problem while people experiencing the horror of benzo wd suffer and die.
I read stories like this one every day and this is no superstition.
"I was supposed to die by assisted suicide this week due to pain caused by benzo withdrawal which I started to taper from 9 years ago. I was too afraid to travel, some of the fear ironically caused by benzo withdrawal. It's not that I want to die but the fear of living is worse than the fear of dying but I also have the trip to make and having to think about it and had no one to go with me.
Although I'm still alive this is not a Happy Ending Story. Even my own psychiatrist says eventually I think you were going to take your life from this given all that it's done to you. -- at least I have a psychiatrist who doesn't deny how serious this is -- but that my situation is so bad from the benzos including how they wrecked my entire career and relationships, but all he can do is provide me some support but he can't help me fix my symptoms and all the damage. Even said when I first came to him last fall that he figured that this eventually was going to end with my death in the near future. I think it really says something about how bad the withdrawal is when you have a psychiatrist who has that position after 40 Years of experience including in chronic pain and management. His basic attitude is but he would love to help me get better but because he can't do that that's the best thing he can do to help me is give me the support I need to get through the trip to Europe and that next time I will just need more support from him. He thinks the alternative is that all end up hanging myself or what not. Clearly there is something wrong if this is a situation that not only I am facing but that this experienced practitioner actually is aware of because it is not uncommon."
I read stories like this one every day and this is no superstition.
"I was supposed to die by assisted suicide this week due to pain caused by benzo withdrawal which I started to taper from 9 years ago. I was too afraid to travel, some of the fear ironically caused by benzo withdrawal. It's not that I want to die but the fear of living is worse than the fear of dying but I also have the trip to make and having to think about it and had no one to go with me.
Although I'm still alive this is not a Happy Ending Story. Even my own psychiatrist says eventually I think you were going to take your life from this given all that it's done to you. -- at least I have a psychiatrist who doesn't deny how serious this is -- but that my situation is so bad from the benzos including how they wrecked my entire career and relationships, but all he can do is provide me some support but he can't help me fix my symptoms and all the damage. Even said when I first came to him last fall that he figured that this eventually was going to end with my death in the near future. I think it really says something about how bad the withdrawal is when you have a psychiatrist who has that position after 40 Years of experience including in chronic pain and management. His basic attitude is but he would love to help me get better but because he can't do that that's the best thing he can do to help me is give me the support I need to get through the trip to Europe and that next time I will just need more support from him. He thinks the alternative is that all end up hanging myself or what not. Clearly there is something wrong if this is a situation that not only I am facing but that this experienced practitioner actually is aware of because it is not uncommon."
You are entitled to your personal opinion based on your personal experience and anecdotes that you have heard from other people. You are not entitled to misrepresent the scientific evidence or to scare people away from very important, life-saving healthcare.
You are now conflating benzodiazepines as a medical intervention with benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. Nobody is in denial regarding the latter. Rothschild has published on it, and every clinical psychologist and psychiatrist is aware of it. I ask about problematic use of prescription medications in every single intake interview I do.
The anecdote that you have posted reflects the experience of a person with a severe addiction to benzodiazepines. To suggest that it reflects a typical or even common experience with benzodiazepines is the equivalent of presenting Leaving Las Vegas as a typical or common experience with alcohol.
Under appropriate supervision by a psychiatrist, benzodiazepines are a very valuable and effective adjunctive treatment for panic and anxiety, both of which are significant risk factors for suicide. To suggest otherwise, is to make my job, i.e., keeping people from killing themselves, much harder and to stop people who could benefit from the treatment from considering it.
You are now conflating benzodiazepines as a medical intervention with benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. Nobody is in denial regarding the latter. Rothschild has published on it, and every clinical psychologist and psychiatrist is aware of it. I ask about problematic use of prescription medications in every single intake interview I do.
The anecdote that you have posted reflects the experience of a person with a severe addiction to benzodiazepines. To suggest that it reflects a typical or even common experience with benzodiazepines is the equivalent of presenting Leaving Las Vegas as a typical or common experience with alcohol.
Under appropriate supervision by a psychiatrist, benzodiazepines are a very valuable and effective adjunctive treatment for panic and anxiety, both of which are significant risk factors for suicide. To suggest otherwise, is to make my job, i.e., keeping people from killing themselves, much harder and to stop people who could benefit from the treatment from considering it.
no doubt. I just don't understand suicide but guess we don't know how depression can alter rational thinking .
The case I gave is indeed from cessation withdrawal but interdose or 'tolerance' withdrawal is just as bad or worse (as I'm sure you're aware). After all, most people would not choose to get off of benzos unless their conditions worsen while on them would they? What leads them to suicide is healthcare professionals that don't even consider that these drugs could be there very reason they are drawn into complete madness in the first place. You take a person having normal amounts of anxiety for whatever reason, give them the drug and initially the condition improves. The problem is you don't wean them off soon enough. You keep them on a 'therapeutic dose' and over time, as they become 'tolerant', their anxiety worsens so you give them more. After many updoeses where no amount makes the anxiety stop they are done. SSRIs at this point only make it worse and push them over the edge. Once this happens they feel all alone and without hope and the only thing that makes sense to them anymore, the only way to make the madness stop, is suicide.
I do realize that the percentage of people affected to these extreme degrees is small, but when you look at the number of prescriptions across the US and the rest of the world, even a small percentage is a staggering number of people. These are the most prescribed drugs of all time. We as a society are only beginning to see and become aware of the magnitude of this healthcare crisis...
What you are describing is unethical, incompetent psychiatric care. It is absolutely inappropriate to prescribe benzodiazepines for “normal” levels of anxiety, and they are never intended to be taken regularly or long-term. The psychiatrists with whom I work never prescribe more than 5-6 pills at a time, and they are always working toward not giving any additional refills. They also explicitly and repeatedly discuss the risks of dependency and withdrawal syndrome. They also all practice psychiatry as an adjunctive treatment to psychotherapy and will not prescribe any medications unless the patient is actively engaged in on-going psychotherapy.
Also, benzodiazepines are not even close to the most prescribed drugs of all time. The anti-cholesterol, heart disease, asthma, diabetes, arthritis, cancer, and thyroid medications are prescribed at much higher rates. Benzodiazepines aren’t even the most prescribed psychiatric medications, following far behind the anti-psychotics and antidepressants and ADHD meds.
Also, benzodiazepines are not even close to the most prescribed drugs of all time. The anti-cholesterol, heart disease, asthma, diabetes, arthritis, cancer, and thyroid medications are prescribed at much higher rates. Benzodiazepines aren’t even the most prescribed psychiatric medications, following far behind the anti-psychotics and antidepressants and ADHD meds.
We do know how depression can alter rational thinking, and we do actually have a fairly good understanding of suicide. We just exist in a society that does not emphasize or prioritize healthcare for depression and suicide.
Reliable can you please link specifically to where I can find this, and other mortality charts at the CDC?
Last edited:
Similar threads
