Ken Burns series on Vietnam started tonight
- Thread starter billanole
- Start date
Series is Sunday - Thursday and then next Sunday - Thursday.
Read an article earlier this evening on Ken Burns in The New Yorker if anyone is interested.
Read an article earlier this evening on Ken Burns in The New Yorker if anyone is interested.
Just happened to be looking at the guide last night not wanting to watch nfl and came across this. Was blown away and we watched the whole thing. Didnt know it was Ken Burns until after, and then it all made sense.
I have a feeling that they could do a 10ep season just on the pre-war political history of Vietnam based on last night ep alone.
One quote that tragically stood out to me was when the former CIA official said something like, "we should of realized that the Vietnamese revolt against the French signified the end of colonial rule in se asia, not the beginning of the red scare dominoe effect." Damn.
I have a feeling that they could do a 10ep season just on the pre-war political history of Vietnam based on last night ep alone.
One quote that tragically stood out to me was when the former CIA official said something like, "we should of realized that the Vietnamese revolt against the French signified the end of colonial rule in se asia, not the beginning of the red scare dominoe effect." Damn.
Attitudes like that don't sell helicopters.
Good quote. Another thing that horrified me was hearing that the letters Ho Chi Minh wrote to Truman never reached him, but rather went into "the files" of the CIA or OSS.
He was simply interested in independence, not in the spread of communism throughout the region or world if the quotes last night are accurate. Wow.
I've by no means studied the dude, but what I have read is about a nationalist who put hope in Wilson's 14 points, and still had hope after the end of WW2 for an end to colonialism in his country. He ultimately took help where he could get it.
I think you are pretty well on point. The picture of him with an OSS officer close by says a lot. I can't remember his given name, but Ho was his last of many as he avoided those whom would do him harm.
The guy was dead set on independence, and early on he was very much a fan of the US... feeling that our fight for independence and emphasis on "all men are created equal" was similar to the desires of the people of what became known as VietNam.
I'm not going to watch, I'm old enough to remember it....for those who do....does Burns get into the discussion that RFK convinced JFK to end the war....and JFK would have, bu wanted to get re-elected first?
Hindsight is always 20/20.
Ask my Dad about McNamara and he would go ballistic. Between him and LBJ micromanaging the war was a disaster.
Ask my Dad about McNamara and he would go ballistic. Between him and LBJ micromanaging the war was a disaster.
I was aware that the Vietnamese had thrown out the French after many years of colonial rule. I didn't know how similar the French experience before their departure in 1954, and the reactions of many of its citizens to what happened in their vain attempt to maintain their empire, was to our experience in Vietnam.
Wise folks keep reminding us of the folly of ignoring history, but we continue to repeat it anyway.
Wise folks keep reminding us of the folly of ignoring history, but we continue to repeat it anyway.
Tonight's episode covers Kennedy's presidency. In the first episode, I found it interesting that as a young senator, JFK visited Vietnam and concluded that wasn't something we should get involved with. If the documentary is accurate, it shows a softening of that posture until, by the time he was elected, he seemed to have bought into the domino theory.
From EP 2 (1961 - 1963), here is an excerpt of a JFK quote since it was brought up above:
"We don't have a prayer of staying in Vietnam" President Kennedy privately told a friend that spring. "These people hate us, but I can't give up a piece of territory like that to the Communists and then get the People to re-elect me".
"We don't have a prayer of staying in Vietnam" President Kennedy privately told a friend that spring. "These people hate us, but I can't give up a piece of territory like that to the Communists and then get the People to re-elect me".
Watched it last night. Very interesting. So much I never knew. Mention of Kennedy wanting out but didn't think it would help being re-elected. The S VietNam regime sounded terrible. Much worse than north. Contrary to what we were lead to believe.
I don't think the North was any different. They had the same kind of political assasinations, corruption, and mass civilian murder against pro-french and non-communist locals that the south had. It's just that I sense a slight lean in bias by Burns in order to show that the south was a huge cluster as well and contributed to the success of the vc and northern sympathizers in the south because of the treatment they received by the regime in place.
Just a messed up situation all around, with ordinary citizens caught in the middle, and who only took sides based on fear or the horrid treatment of their friends and family by which ever side they happened to be living under.
Thanks for the quote, and feedback... although he is frequently mentioned on "Best Presidents" lists, knowing that the war was wrong and he wanted to get out, and did not because he wanted to be reelected, I could never forgive him......
Here's why he's the best president ever imo regardless of what happened in Vietnam or anything else...he stopped the end of humanity through nuclear oblivion at least twice and probably three times and maybe more. His presidency was during the hottest part of the Cold War and our Pentagon and CIA were seemingly desperate to start a hot war and start flinging nukes. The CIA and Joint Chiefs of Staff both approved of plans to murder Cuban emigres, hijack planes and set bombs in Miami to kill American civilians all as part of a false flag operation to blame Cuba as a Casus Belli to invade Cuba. That's not a tinfoil conspiracy theory, you can read the proposal approved by the Pentagon and CIA called Operation Northwoods as it was released by the government in 1997 (and that wasn't the only false flag of course, the important Congressmen knew the Gulf Tonkin incident was a faked false flag to draw us into Vietnam as well). During the 13 days of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Republicans and Pentagon were again pretty desperate for war and it took a secret deal for our missiles in Turkey for the Russian ones in Miami he initially kept from the Republicans in Congress to avert a public political outcry that ultimately stopped a nuclear war. In Kruschev's memoirs he wrote that had Kennedy struck at some of the nukes in Cuba he would have launched the ones we missed (he said he knew we would get 80-90% in strikes but miss some hidden ones) towards New York and Miami with some preset to NYC and some to Miami for quick launches. And of course Kennedy had to fight off the same CIA, Pentagon and Republic Congressional Hawks triumvirate from escalating the botched Bay of Pigs debacle into a full scale war as well.
I couldn't even imagine how difficult it was to fight off the forces pushing towards WW3 in our own house while also dealing with a relatively aggressive Russia. So as many soldiers died under Kennedy fighting a fruitless war, you could multiply that by at least times a hundred or a thousand if the Pentagon had its way.
My Dad lived thru the Battle of the Bulge and hated war in any context- I still remember him going off one night after hearing LBJ making a speech about Vietnam. Didn't know about such a thing as PTSD - no one did at the time - but he started stabbing a butcher knife into a loaf of bread in the kitchen and yelling. My Mom got him calmed down.
If you were of an age where guys you knew were going to Nam because they weren't in college it was not the happiest time. Even if guys were in school they were facing the draft. One of the guys interviewed last night said that my generation was the last one that believed their government would never lie to them. QFT.
I haven't seen the second episode yet, but the first didn't mention much how Ho and his supporters would regularly kill or jail political opponents. He and his followers actions seemed to be different then what he wrote and spoke about. They touched on the South's puppet leaders doing it, but not much from the Ho's group. I'll have to get caught up before tonight's episode.
Saw Goldmom's post and (besides reminding me of many conversations I have had with my Dad over the years about the draft, his friends, etc.) it reminded me of an important point that resonated with me in a Tom Brokaw Interview with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick that I watched last night (video interview if interested).
The point is brought up how that during WWII and Vietnam (for different reasons) that all US citizens were involved in one way or the other especially because of the draft so that had a big impact of families. Whereas now there is a 1% involvement in the ongoing war so families aren't asking daily what is the end goal and asking our leadership important questions.
Exactly. Boomers had one thing in common: Everyone's Dad was a veteran.
So best president ever was in charge for most of this; but gets a pass. Last I checked if you are the man and things happen under your command you own it. Not to mention if the wanting to get out of Vietnam but get reelected first true then he basically was ok with letting Americans die till he got what he wanted then would do what he thought was right. I am not an expert but I wouldn't call that strong character. Sure he did a number of good things and getting assassinated always helps your rating; but based on your post alone it sounds lke JFK was just like every other politician and did what was best for him first.
The man the myth the legend. JFK all the way.
He was a human with human frailty whose father bought Cook County.
Charming, witty, smart, polished. He was not the best President ever, but we'll agree to say he had grown in office with serious potential to be one of the best.
He was a human with human frailty whose father bought Cook County.
Charming, witty, smart, polished. He was not the best President ever, but we'll agree to say he had grown in office with serious potential to be one of the best.
My father was a vet and got into a verbal spat with McNamara on NYC streets one day over war PR campaign. My mom said he came home spewing.
It was mentioned in the second episode. A person was given an opportunity to change their mind and join. If they didn't change (or flee), they were killed.
I see. I wonder if that was his belief all along or how it evolved when the West didn't support their independence/movement.
Burns' documentary so far is giving way too sympathetic of a view of Ho Chi Minh.
His "dream" of kicking out the colonials had been achieved after the French left.
North and South Vietnam were run by Vietnamese nationals.
But that wasn't good enough -- he wanted direct power over the entire country.
So all this stuff about how poor Ho Chi Minh just wanted a country run by Vietnamese people is a farce -- he wanted dictatorial power and control.
I think like many dictators his first plan was noble but then power corrupted him and made him greedy. He was a ruthless dictator who tortured/murdered people who didnt agree with his economic philosophies.
That's not to say that South Vietnam was that much better -- obviously they had their own power hungry leader who brutalized dissidents in the South.
His "dream" of kicking out the colonials had been achieved after the French left.
North and South Vietnam were run by Vietnamese nationals.
But that wasn't good enough -- he wanted direct power over the entire country.
So all this stuff about how poor Ho Chi Minh just wanted a country run by Vietnamese people is a farce -- he wanted dictatorial power and control.
I think like many dictators his first plan was noble but then power corrupted him and made him greedy. He was a ruthless dictator who tortured/murdered people who didnt agree with his economic philosophies.
That's not to say that South Vietnam was that much better -- obviously they had their own power hungry leader who brutalized dissidents in the South.
Here's an article that may differ from what saw or watched. I didn't see it...but it's worth reading if not for a different opinion, if you're into that type of thing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...isleading-history_us_59bf4922e4b0390a1564df2b
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...isleading-history_us_59bf4922e4b0390a1564df2b
Tonight began to show how pervasive the body count became as justification. Wifey and I both saw it for years on the six oclock news at supper time. The effect of the draft was also covered. My older brother and a neighbor used to run across the yard towards each other every year screaming the lottery number they pulled. They both never had a low number and therefore avoided the call.
I had an Uncle in the Air Force who flew the deceased from Soul to Dover, over and over, and over again. What it did to him and his family was terrible and lead to his suicide and worse. Glad I was too young to know what was going on, but my older cousins have told stories about how he told them all to never join the military.
Another "how in the hell did i not know that!" moment watching this series- that the majority of anti war protests didnt start until the college exemption was phased out (big surprise huh). And that rich kids got preferential draft status or automatically sent to the reserve or guard, as to not stir up anymore unrest among the educated class.
Also, the war being all about the bodycount to the higher ups and secdef, so the ground commanders simply inflated deaths to cover their ass. And the massive use of firepower meant to disrupt the NV was impressive, but overkill. More tons used than ww2 by a third or something. The one vc guy said, "they control the air, but we still own ground. When one hole opens on road (ho chi min trail), that we fill it up and keep moving."
They had 200k teenage boys and girls full time, just hauling rock and dirt to make that trail from the north through jungles and over mtns nonstop to supply the vc. Crazy.
Im really glad this came out, and I have read quite a bit about the vietnam war in the past, but to have it all put together along with the archived footage helps it sink in a bit more.
This was wasnt taught about in school when I went. American history went from the mayflower to ww2. This was my parents' generation's war and they, our coaches, teachers, relatives that did live in that time or go over there damn sure didnt talk about it much.
Also, the war being all about the bodycount to the higher ups and secdef, so the ground commanders simply inflated deaths to cover their ass. And the massive use of firepower meant to disrupt the NV was impressive, but overkill. More tons used than ww2 by a third or something. The one vc guy said, "they control the air, but we still own ground. When one hole opens on road (ho chi min trail), that we fill it up and keep moving."
They had 200k teenage boys and girls full time, just hauling rock and dirt to make that trail from the north through jungles and over mtns nonstop to supply the vc. Crazy.
Im really glad this came out, and I have read quite a bit about the vietnam war in the past, but to have it all put together along with the archived footage helps it sink in a bit more.
This was wasnt taught about in school when I went. American history went from the mayflower to ww2. This was my parents' generation's war and they, our coaches, teachers, relatives that did live in that time or go over there damn sure didnt talk about it much.
Did you see the images of a couple of future POTUSs during the clips regarding college exemption and the reserves/guard?
It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no
It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no
It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no
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