New Report On FSU

[aawash]

For those of us who attended FSU in the late 60's and early 70's: The children of Radical Jack Lieberman and his SDS buddies are no doubt in charge of FSU academic thought these days----very sad. I'm sure that standing for the National Anthem at Doak will soon be optional or not played at all so as not offend the same people.

 

[mnole03]

I’m in genuine disbelief that a university that quite literally gave the Koch brothers hiring power, is described as the radical left.

 

[DFSNOLE]

You call that "extremely well researched? He has basically one document to support his arguement.

His article would not pass high school history class.

But, once again, the Manhattan Institute.

City Journal is certainly a right biased site. Any time you read terms like left-wing and radical in the article descriptor, it's an indicator that it wasn't written from a centrist, non-biased viewpoint.

 

[goldmom]

This opinion piece came out, due to all the hype FSU is getting this off season going into next.

I’m not so sure we can hang this one on football.

 

[goldmom]

I’m in genuine disbelief that a university that quite literally gave the Koch brothers hiring power, is described as the radical left.

Koch thing is so 2000 and late. And the mere introduction of the name into a thread is guaranteed to inflame some. But then you ask yourself why it got some so worked up.

This latest article is new and while done with a lot of Hot Air (literally) not entirely without some basis in fact.
UF is also having its own issues right now.

Grab the popcorn 🍿

 

[wilynole]

You call that "extremely well researched? He has basically one document to support his arguement.

His article would not pass high school history class.

But, once again, the Manhattan Institute.

bcherod, this isn't a personal attack against you. I and a few others do think this article is cause for concern, you don't agree, that's perfectly ok. I'm happy to hear your opinion, but please give it without all the insults.

 

[goldmom]

For those of us who attended FSU in the late 60's and early 70's: The children of Radical Jack Lieberman and his SDS buddies are no doubt in charge of FSU academic thought these days----very sad. I'm sure that standing for the National Anthem at Doak will soon be optional or not played at all so as not offend the same people.

I heard that Jack eventually returned to Miami Beach and his wealthy family roots and ran for City Council. Haven’t heard anymore about him for years though.

 

[TC Nole OX]

This thread, mostly the first post, is like Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner where I get to hear relatives vomit the latest made up nonsense they saw on "the news." Fortunately, it's easy to change the subject. How do you like the green beans?

 

[12Nole]

Koch thing is so 2000 and late. And the mere introduction of the name into a thread is guaranteed to inflame some. But then you ask yourself why it got some so worked up.

This latest article is new and while done with a lot of Hot Air (literally) not entirely without some basis in fact.
UF is also having its own issues right now.

Grab the popcorn 🍿

UF is about to break ground on a $100-million satellite campus in Jacksonville, FL.

FSU needs to lock down the panhandle area and find a way into Lake City.

 

[bcherod]

bcherod, this isn't a personal attack against you. I and a few others do think this article is cause for concern, you don't agree, that's perfectly ok. I'm happy to hear your opinion, but please give it without all the insults.

OK, I'll rephrase it.

As a former history teacher, I would not have met the expectations of my department head, had I accepted a paper from a student with only one documented source.

As a student at FSU, we were required to write, following APA standards.

So in accordance with what I was taught, it is not a well researched article.

 

[NoleSince1961]

Here is the original source. City Journal and Chris Rufo are extremely well researched.

The Highest Principle

Florida State University has adopted a series of “diversity, equity, and inclusion” programs that divides Americans along a “matrix of oppression,” castigates Christians for their “Christian privilege,” and offers a racially segregated scholarship that deliberately bars white students from...

www.city-journal.org

Next

City Journal Media Bias Rating

Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of City Journal. AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.

www.allsides.com

 

[bcherod]

It's wild watching this from the other side of the continent. My west coast colleagues just do not know what to make of what is happening in Florida at New College and with this new DeSantis push against EDI and articles like this one. I recently had a colleague accept a position at UF and leave California. She has only been there a few months, but she is already looking to transfer back.

This reinforces my view that the U.S. truly is not a cohesive nation or culture and that we need to seriously consider how we peacefully separate. The definition of culture that I use involves shared language, ideals, models of governance, etc., and I just do not see much overlap, at all, between the major conservative and progressive subpopulations in the U.S.

I can totally relate to what you are saying, I and my other BRAT friends, that grew up overseas, and came back to the states for college, etc., the draft., etc. Y'all know the drill.

We feel like displaced citizens in our own country.

 

[GeddyLee09]

It's wild watching this from the other side of the continent. My west coast colleagues just do not know what to make of what is happening in Florida at New College and with this new DeSantis push against EDI and articles like this one. I recently had a colleague accept a position at UF and leave California. She has only been there a few months, but she is already looking to transfer back.

This reinforces my view that the U.S. truly is not a cohesive nation or culture and that we need to seriously consider how we peacefully separate. The definition of culture that I use involves shared language, ideals, models of governance, etc., and I just do not see much overlap, at all, between the major conservative and progressive subpopulations in the U.S.

So should people shouldn't have opinions and all states should operate like the ones out west? Just for the record I think the article is a lot of hyperbole and hot air loosely based in fact. That tiny bit of fact is what riles up the right, then the left gets upset because the other side is resistant. I've talked to folks that have moved to Texas and Florida from California and they all say wow I cant believe things are like this. I always wonder what they expected. I go to California or Oregon and expect things to be a certain way.

The problem these days is that the media has managed to separate people into two groups and they have managed to label those groups as good and evil, its the classic WWE model. Label and divide. Many people fall into that they even managed to label and politicize a pandemic. No middle ground or moderates you have to be red or blue.

People just cant listen to a differing opinion any more and accept that its ok to disagree.

 

[GeddyLee09]

I can totally relate to what you are saying, I and my other BRAT friends, that grew up overseas, and came back to the states for college, etc., the draft., etc. Y'all know the drill.

We feel like displaced citizens in our own country.

I've lived the better part of the last 40 years overseas. I think overseas you not really exposed to the same things we are here. People act differently and its more of a unified society. People can have different view and its ok. You get used to a way of life that's totally different and its a tough adjustment. Some leave for good. I have friends that live full time overseas now. I haven't made the full time jump yet.

 

[seminole97]

This reinforces my view that the U.S. truly is not a cohesive nation or culture and that we need to seriously consider how we peacefully separate. The definition of culture that I use involves shared language, ideals, models of governance, etc., and I just do not see much overlap, at all, between the major conservative and progressive subpopulations in the U.S.

The U.S. would work fantastically as a union based on free trade, travel, and mutual defense.

The problems come largely from trying to impose narrower policies across the broad set.

Let CA and FL carve different policies and leave the people free to choose between them.

What could be more ideal?

I reject Lincoln's argument that our Union's perfection is defined by perpetuity. I find that at odds with the principles of the Declaration of Independence. In my view its 'perfection' is that it is beholden to the people, and inherently modifiable.

Peacefully separating is easy. Recent examples in Europe (e.g. Czechoslovakia) show how it can work, as long as the President of the U.S. doesn't declare his intention to ignore the will of the voters in the States and instead insist he'll use his "power... to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts."

 

[GeddyLee09]

The U.S. would work fantastically as a union based on free trade, travel, and mutual defense.

The problems come largely from trying to impose narrower policies across the broad set.

Let CA and FL carve different policies and leave the people free to choose between them.

What could be more ideal?

I reject Lincoln's argument that our Union's perfection is defined by perpetuity. I find that at odds with the principles of the Declaration of Independence. In my view its 'perfection' is that it is beholden to the people, and inherently modifiable.

Peacefully separating is easy. Recent examples in Europe (e.g. Czechoslovakia) show how it can work, as long as the President of the U.S. doesn't declare his intention to ignore the will of the voters in the States and instead insist he'll use his "power... to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts."

Those peaceful separations in Europe (which were not always peaceful) didn't come easy as the transition from a socialist government to democratic is tough for many. When people are beholden to a government for everything from food to housing moving away from that is hard. Many of those countries that were behind the iron curtain are still economically troubled. Poland , Czech Republic and Slovakia are doing better but others such as Ukraine and the former Yugoslavian countries are still struggling. Some are even worse off such as Georgia and Armenia.

 

[seminole97]

Those peaceful separations in Europe (which were not always peaceful) didn't come easy as the transition from a socialist government to democratic is tough for many. When people are beholden to a government for everything from food to housing moving away from that is hard. Many of those countries that were behind the iron curtain are still economically troubled. Poland , Czech Republic and Slovakia are doing better but others such as Ukraine and the former Yugoslavian countries are still struggling. Some are even worse off such as Georgia and Armenia.

The only people susceptible to the argument the people in those nations were better off under communism are drawn almost exclusively from those too young to have know about it firsthand.

The 'troubled' nations you mentioned didn't avoid the pitfall of war.

I certainly wouldn't shed any blood to affirm Lincoln's concept of 'perfection through perpetuity', would you?

 

[GeddyLee09]

The only people susceptible to the argument the people in those nations were better off under communism are drawn almost exclusively from those too young to have know about it firsthand.

The 'troubled' nations you mentioned didn't avoid the pitfall of war.

I certainly wouldn't shed any blood to affirm Lincoln's concept of 'perfection through perpetuity', would you?

Agreed. I think most there would tell you as well they are better off now

 

[ChiefWB]

People just cant listen to a differing opinion any more and accept that its ok to disagree.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[noletaire]

I reject Lincoln's argument that our Union's perfection is defined by perpetuity. I find that at odds with the principles of the Declaration of Independence. In my view its 'perfection' is that it is beholden to the people, and inherently modifiable.

Peacefully separating is easy. Recent examples in Europe (e.g. Czechoslovakia) show how it can work, as long as the President of the U.S. doesn't declare his intention to ignore the will of the voters in the States and instead insist he'll use his "power... to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts."

^^^^Exactly right.

 

[NoleFan2U]

Truer words have never been spoken.

I just had this conversation with a patient. He refuses to get vaccinated and was telling me that people didn't have a choice with the vaccines during the pandemic. I disagreed telling him that if a nurse/doctor/staff of a hospital or a military person didn't want to be vaccinated, they could find another job. That IS a choice.

He disagreed again and I told him we had to stop this discussion. I wasn't going to change his opinion and he wasn't going to change mine. Why can't this be done with everything going on in the world?

 

[seminole97]

I just had this conversation with a patient. He refuses to get vaccinated and was telling me that people didn't have a choice with the vaccines during the pandemic. I disagreed telling him that if a nurse/doctor/staff of a hospital or a military person didn't want to be vaccinated, they could find another job. That IS a choice.

He disagreed again and I told him we had to stop this discussion. I wasn't going to change his opinion and he wasn't going to change mine. Why can't this be done with everything going on in the world?

I think the distinction he failed to articulate is the difference between a free choice and coerced one.

You can have this bowl of ice cream, or this bowl of spiders. If you choose the bowl of ice cream I’m going to hit you with a hammer.

The choice is perceived differently with the presence of coercion, no?

 

[GeddyLee09]

I just had this conversation with a patient. He refuses to get vaccinated and was telling me that people didn't have a choice with the vaccines during the pandemic. I disagreed telling him that if a nurse/doctor/staff of a hospital or a military person didn't want to be vaccinated, they could find another job. That IS a choice.

He disagreed again and I told him we had to stop this discussion. I wasn't going to change his opinion and he wasn't going to change mine. Why can't this be done with everything going on in the world?

A military person at the time technically had a choice but in reality there wasn't one. Get the shot or a dishonorable discharge and no real hope of future employment at least meaningful. But, that's what they sign up for as well. If your in and decide you don't want to follow orders you can always not do it and suffer the consequences.

Your right in that you should be able to have that conversation and go ok we just dont agree and move on.

 

[NoleFan2U]

Your right in that you should be able to have that conversation and go ok we just dont agree and move on.

6-8 months ago I would not have been able to do that. It has been a struggle for me to agree to disagree. Especially with just common sense issues. But I am proud to say that I now realize they can remain stupid, I am still right and we call all move on.

 

[bcherod]

I've lived the better part of the last 40 years overseas. I think overseas you not really exposed to the same things we are here. People act differently and its more of a unified society. People can have different view and its ok. You get used to a way of life that's totally different and its a tough adjustment. Some leave for good. I have friends that live full time overseas now. I haven't made the full time jump yet.

I agree to a certain extent, probably true in Europe, more than South America and Asia.

Regardless, all many are products of colonization, and the remnants of colonial empires.

 

[NoleSince1961]

I think some of the points of a disagreement go well beyond differences of opinion and enter into the realm of fundamentally different values, and asking people to disregard their values is a step too far for most, especially when the perception is that those differences pose a potentially severe threat of harm.

I think many of the "hot button" topics fall into this category: abortion, LGBTQ rights, critical race theory, immigration, etc. People can not "agree to disagree," because they perceive that the other side poses a very real and present danger.

And another stumbling block regarding that whole "difference of opinion" broad brush characterization of debates and disagreements -- it's a real problem IMHO when people with intransigent biases, and different levels of expertise/training/education/understanding and most importantly different levels of genuine concern for careful sourcing and informational integrity lump matters of fact, science, etc. in with "opinions", and then couple that with the ever-popular "all opinions are equally valid" sentiment... a recipe for genuine public harm when it comes to complex, substantive topics.

And yes, I say that with full awareness that to even voice this line of thinking is mocked as "elitist" in today's populist environment. And I appreciate that science is rarely if ever settled, we're always learning, and sometimes those new learnings contradict what we previously thought... None of that changes the importance of distinguishing between matters of opinion (which steak place in town is best) and the rest.

 

[bcherod]

And another stumbling block regarding that whole "difference of opinion" broad brush characterization of debates and disagreements -- it's a real problem IMHO when people with intransigent biases, and different levels of expertise/training/education/understanding and most importantly different levels of genuine concern for careful sourcing and informational integrity lump matters of fact, science, etc. in with "opinions", and then couple that with the ever-popular "all opinions are equally valid" sentiment... a recipe for genuine public harm when it comes to complex, substantive topics.

And yes, I say that with full awareness that to even voice this line of thinking is mocked as "elitist" in today's populist environment. And I appreciate that science is rarely if ever settled, we're always learning, and sometimes those new learnings contradict what we previously thought... None of that changes the importance of distinguishing between matters of opinion (which steak place in town is best) and the rest.

Well, that was an excellent piece, worthy of our generation.

I view it as rational thought, but I often see it being viewed as being "elitist", but that is by people who truly do not want to understand. It's too complicated for them.