Patriots...

[TheGodOfThunder]

Question:
How are the patriots so successful over so many years? Generally, an NFL head coach (historically) is innovative for about 10 years (give or take). Bellichek however has continually fielded teams with starters that no one knows who they are. Eventually, one would think, his methodology would seep out into the general community and other teams would start to figure out how to counter his moves/decisions. I know that the patriots play in a very weak division. But- they still manage to play well in big games outside the division. I know Brady is a HOF QB, but he doesnt play every position. I have been around the game for a long time, consider myself to be very informed about the game...so I am not looking for a simple "theyre just better" kind of response. What I am wondering is if anyone has any in depth thoughts about how BB really thinks and approaches games/what is his secret(s)? Part of me wants to chalk up the "spygate" and the recent blurb about the deflated footballs into a neat summary of "well, clearly he's cheating". But if that were the case, someone would figure that out and leak it...wouldnt they? How does he seemingly get mileage out of players that werent successful before the patriots signed them and in some cases, never are very good after they leave? Why havent more former players or insiders talked about this on some of the many sports talk shows or nfl preview shows? Any thoughts on this?

 

[timbo37059]

I'm not a insider and definitely not a x and o guru but I am a lifelong Pats fan and have followed the team through the BB era. I also draw a lot of parrels to what Jimbo does and BB does though they have different styles.

I think he is a master motivator number one. He tends to know just what do or say to motivate the team. His situational football and the way he stresses this helps the team in so many ways it makes him look like he is playing chess and others playing checkers. The ability to adapt he played very rigid 34 in the past and this year adapted to more of a nickel base while adding Browner and Revis. The offense has changed from a run pa pass quick throws with Charlie Weis to a spread type team, after the secondary rules change, with Moss, Welker. Back to a more running pa pass quick pass offense.

It has a lot to do with the players as well. This is the best team since 04 because of the defense IMO. He hasn't had the players and balance on both sides of the ball til he gets Revis.

 

[AdNole]

Apparently, cheating on a regular basis is also helpful.

 

[timbo37059]

Deflated balls was the reason the won 45-7 right?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[AdNole]

Nope, but tells you a lot about the character of the organization. Go ahead and defend them if you think the action was acceptable.

 

[Manch.]

Cowherd said it best: no big deal, everyone does it, it's not the reason they won the game, the refs touched the balls for 4 hours, they were inspected before the game and at halftime.


BUT, here's where I also agree with Cowherd: Belichick's resume calls for another pretty harsh come down from the league. IMO: ) suspend him for the Super Bowl or b) suspend him after the SB until the Pat's 7th game of 2015, including being in the office, so effectively banning him from contact with the Pats completely until after the Pats have played their 6th game of 2015.

 

[nhwildcat]

i agree...the deflated footballs had nothing to do with the outcome of the game...balls were inflated at halftime and pats had better 2nd half. and balls were inspected after the game...Also something needs to be done to "send a message"...I don't think nothing will be done before superbowl. i look for more than just a fine...probably a suspension for next year...hope its meaningful...just curious why do you think 6 games?

 

[TheGodOfThunder]

Clearly the pats knew about the balls...they had to have been deflated after having been inspected. This is some serious pressure on the league to send a message so I think that they will. To me, NE is a win at all costs team. They havent learned from the spygate so they need to be punished again. I dont buy for a minute that this was some random occurence. Look at how they come up with these obscure formations with certain players eligible and others not. He knew what he was donig. This was calculated. That being said, he still does a lot of things that are legal that others have just not figured out how to stay on par with.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by timbo37059:
Deflated balls was the reason the won 45-7 right?

Posted from Rivals Mobile

No it wasn't the reason they won 45-7, but it also isn't just about one game. When a team has a history of cheating, and then get busted again, I think it would be naive to think it stopped. Raven's players have complained about this from the week before, which was a close game. Depending on what comes out of this, I think Belichick and Brady's legacies are going to take a big hit.

 

[Manch.]

Besides the Spygate, what history of cheating to the Patriots have?

OK, Baltimore complained, and as we find out more, a lot of teams are hinting that the same thing happens, every game with most teams. I am not condoning it, but this has to be the most over blown story in the past year.

 

[nhwildcat]

I thought i read where Harbough had said he didn't know anything about underinflated balls.

Without proof...ie pictures, eyewitnesses, admissions, how can the nfl put the blame on any one particular person?
It is obivious that something/someone caused the balls to become underinflated. But, without physical evidence i don't know how you can blame a particular person. Fine the organization, reduce draft picks yes..but you can't put the blame on any one person.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by Manch.:
Besides the Spygate, what history of cheating to the Patriots have?

OK, Baltimore complained, and as we find out more, a lot of teams are hinting that the same thing happens, every game with most teams. I am not condoning it, but this has to be the most over blown story in the past year.

There have always been stories about NE cheating. I don't know how much is true or not, but I there have been teams complaining of their headsets not working at opportune times in Foxboro, Spygate obviously, now this. Pretty decent pattern seems to have emerged. I dont think any of the stories are huge things, but when combined, then yeah, I think it hurts both Brady and Belichick's legacy.

 

[Manch.]

Stories? Rumors?

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by Manch.:
Stories? Rumors?

Spygate wasn't a rumor. History has been established that the Patriot's franchise isn't afraid of cheating.

 

[Manch.]

First, not a Pats fan.

Second, this is the barking dog syndrome, you know, when there are 10 dogs in the neighborhood, and 10 dogs are barking because one dog barked, and now there are 10 dogs barking and not one dog knows why they are barking.

The press is at it again, feeding everyone that the Patriots are these big time cheaters, and the public just eats it up. The Pats/Belichick were fined pretty hard and draft choices were taken back in 2007 and because of this one time, the Pats are perceived as these big time, win at all costs cheaters, and the press has driven this as hard as they can.

This whole "being cheaters" propaganda is based on one proven incident and stories and rumors. If this was Tampa Bay, or just about any other team, this would be such a non-story. Stories of team communications going down.......happen every week, things "happen" every week, especially to road teams.

Yes, history was written in 2007, but that doesn't mean the Pats franchise are continuous cheaters.

And with Spygate, several teams and coaches came out and said that filming the opponents practices is common place, and as far as the air in the ball, it's as common a practice as tying one's shoes. The Patriots for caught and paid the price.

And how did the Patriots get caught? They were turned in by 2 teams informing other teams what they thought the Patriots were up to, why? Because they were bitter rivals who couldn't beat the Patriots, so the Pats must be cheating, and why didn't the Jets and Ravens turn the Patriots in at the time they thought it happened? Because the story that I heard is that they were doing something similar and they needed to clean their house before the babysitter told mom and dad.

I do not condone anything that is done outside the written rules, but I find it laughable that one team is singled out by bitter rivals who could not beat the Pats, bitter rivals that were probably doing the exact same thing, or something similar. We are going on a decade now from "Spygate", I think it's time to move on.

Belichick hasn't been around as long as he has because he is a lousy coach, perhaps he's been around as long as he has because he's a better cheater than everyone else, or at least that's the rumor.

With the way the NFL bungled and lied about the ray Rice elevator tape, they have put themselves in a position that mandates they come down hard on anything that the press over reacts to, gotta protect that "NFL shield" at all costs now. Lynch is wearing a different color cleat this week? Balls might be .3 PSI under? Give me a break, the Super Bowl is next week and they can't afford to piss off Dove soap, so now they have to pretend they care and are tough on these 1,696 players that are so many painkillers that they get addicted and not to mention the number of players that are jacked up on HGH and other forms of PED's. That part kills me, a Ray Lewis type of player that is jacked up on something, and has probably committed several serious felonies over the years, sitting in front of his locker, Tweeting that the Patriot's footballs are a breathe under the league's PSI limit after they beat someone 45-7, where a Colts player said that the Pat's could have used a Dove bar and still won by a score of 45-7.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by Manch.:
First, not a Pats fan.

Second, this is the barking dog syndrome, you know, when there are 10 dogs in the neighborhood, and 10 dogs are barking because one dog barked, and now there are 10 dogs barking and not one dog knows why they are barking.

The press is at it again, feeding everyone that the Patriots are these big time cheaters, and the public just eats it up. The Pats/Belichick were fined pretty hard and draft choices were taken back in 2007 and because of this one time, the Pats are perceived as these big time, win at all costs cheaters, and the press has driven this as hard as they can.

This whole "being cheaters" propaganda is based on one proven incident and stories and rumors. If this was Tampa Bay, or just about any other team, this would be such a non-story. Stories of team communications going down.......happen every week, things "happen" every week, especially to road teams.

Yes, history was written in 2007, but that doesn't mean the Pats franchise are continuous cheaters.

And with Spygate, several teams and coaches came out and said that filming the opponents practices is common place, and as far as the air in the ball, it's as common a practice as tying one's shoes. The Patriots for caught and paid the price.

And how did the Patriots get caught? They were turned in by 2 teams informing other teams what they thought the Patriots were up to, why? Because they were bitter rivals who couldn't beat the Patriots, so the Pats must be cheating, and why didn't the Jets and Ravens turn the Patriots in at the time they thought it happened? Because the story that I heard is that they were doing something similar and they needed to clean their house before the babysitter told mom and dad.

I do not condone anything that is done outside the written rules, but I find it laughable that one team is singled out by bitter rivals who could not beat the Pats, bitter rivals that were probably doing the exact same thing, or something similar. We are going on a decade now from "Spygate", I think it's time to move on.

Belichick hasn't been around as long as he has because he is a lousy coach, perhaps he's been around as long as he has because he's a better cheater than everyone else, or at least that's the rumor.

With the way the NFL bungled and lied about the ray Rice elevator tape, they have put themselves in a position that mandates they come down hard on anything that the press over reacts to, gotta protect that "NFL shield" at all costs now. Lynch is wearing a different color cleat this week? Balls might be .3 PSI under? Give me a break, the Super Bowl is next week and they can't afford to piss off Dove soap, so now they have to pretend they care and are tough on these 1,696 players that are so many painkillers that they get addicted and not to mention the number of players that are jacked up on HGH and other forms of PED's. That part kills me, a Ray Lewis type of player that is jacked up on something, and has probably committed several serious felonies over the years, sitting in front of his locker, Tweeting that the Patriot's footballs are a breathe under the league's PSI limit after they beat someone 45-7, where a Colts player said that the Pat's could have used a Dove bar and still won by a score of 45-7.

Keep in mind, the Colts complained about this to the league in November as well, and some Ravens players said the balls were deflated last week. This isnt a one time thing. At what point should the Patriots be punished? Is there anything that can be constituted as cheating? Or can everything be written off as "others teams do it" so who cares? We have a team with a history of proven cheating. We have a team with rumors of even more cheating, and now the same team seems to be cheating again. Yet, you simply think it is an over reaction by the media? What is the purprose of rules if they are not going to be enforced?

And just to add, since you asked about Belichick, it is sort of interesting that he has a losing record without Brady as his QB and only 2 winning seasons (out of 7) without Brady as his QB (one of those being the season Brady was hurt). So yeah, the fact he is a proven cheater who has been great with a great QB, but mediocre at best without that QB, I think there can be some questions about his legacy.

 

[nhwildcat]

seems that the only times teams complain about the pats is after they lose....how about that pattern?
Jerome Bettis and a defensive back(don't know his name) were on espn after BB's press conference....they said that if this happened after for example a jaguar and titans game it wiould hardly even been talked about...If st "breaking the rules" shouldnt it count for all teams? or are the pats held to a higher standard?

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by nhwildcat:
seems that the only times teams complain about the pats is after they lose....how about that pattern?
Jerome Bettis and a defensive back(don't know his name) were on espn after BB's press conference....they said that if this happened after for example a jaguar and titans game it wiould hardly even been talked about...If st "breaking the rules" shouldnt it count for all teams? or are the pats held to a higher standard?

Umm, when are you supposed to complain about it? Before it happens?

And of course it should count for all teams. Did it happen during a Titans-Jags game? If so, then you or someone should report that to the league.
This post was edited on 1/22 3:41 PM by Cubs79

 

[timbo37059]

If BB isn't a great coach then who is, 79?

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by timbo37059:
If BB isn't a great coach then who is, 79?

I didnt say he wasnt a great coach, I just said there are some questions about it now. Currently, I dont know that anyone in the NFL is a "great coach", though Pete Carroll might be close to making the claim.

But with regards to Belichick. He has coached 7 seasons without Brady as his starter. He had a winning season in 2 of those 7 seasons, and reached the playoffs once. So, is it Belichick that is a great coach? Is is because Brady is a great QB? Combination of the 2? And how do these scandals play into it? I think there are plenty of questions about Belichick at this point.

 

[Manch.]

The same Pete Carroll who had wins vacated at USC, and had some of the harshest penalties handed down to them by the NCAA in recent times, for CHEATING?

The same Pete Carroll's who's team leads the league in cheating (yes a penalty is cheating, that's why they are penalties).

The same Pete Carroll who's team has a history of being jacked up on adderall?

The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

OK, so Belichick didn't win as often without Brady, but who has won in Cleveland since the 50's?

Yes, Belichick cheated, once, according to the NFL, and the rest of the league will ride that out as long as they keep losing to New England and that's why it was mentioned to the league. Did it happen during a Jags/Titans game? Very well possible, but it's so petty that no one cared, especially since one of the teams weren't guilty of Spygate.

Also, I did mention that, yes other teams do it, but I don't condone it.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by Manch.:
The same Pete Carroll who had wins vacated at USC, and had some of the harshest penalties handed down to them by the NCAA in recent times, for CHEATING?

The same Pete Carroll's who's team leads the league in cheating (yes a penalty is cheating, that's why they are penalties).

The same Pete Carroll who's team has a history of being jacked up on adderall?

The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

OK, so Belichick didn't win as often without Brady, but who has won in Cleveland since the 50's?

Yes, Belichick cheated, once, according to the NFL, and the rest of the league will ride that out as long as they keep losing to New England and that's why it was mentioned to the league. Did it happen during a Jags/Titans game? Very well possible, but it's so petty that no one cared, especially since one of the teams weren't guilty of Spygate.

Also, I did mention that, yes other teams do it, but I don't condone it.

Carroll didn't cheat on the field and NCAA rules and NFL rules are completely different arguments. That isn't to say that I dont think Carroll isnt a douche, because I think he is, but in game cheating and recruiting violations are different animals. But, I was talking about the NFL, not college anyway so his USC resume doesnt apply to my argument.

And no, penalties are not cheating unless it is a personal foul situation trying to intentionally taking someone out of the game or what not.

What other teams have done it? I always hear making that argument (and honestly, I am sure there are some teams that do), but I never hear specific examples, I just hear vague deflections from a team that was actually caught. The Saints got caught, and punished accordingly, so they certainly cheated. I have read something about the VIkings warming balls for their kicker. So who are the other teams? Give me specifics.

 

[timbo37059]

The Brady argument I feel isn't all that strong. He drafted the guy. Sat Drew Bledsoe after just resigning him to a huge contract to play Brady. In 2008 Brady went down on the first drive of the season, yes belichick didn't make the playoffs but the team when 11-5 and one of his best coach jobs ever.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by timbo37059:
The Brady argument I feel isn't all that strong. He drafted the guy. Sat Drew Bledsoe after just resigning him to a huge contract to play Brady. In 2008 Brady went down on the first drive of the season, yes belichick didn't make the playoffs but the team when 11-5 and one of his best coach jobs ever.

He didnt sit Bledsoe willingly, Bledsoe got hurt and Tom took over. ANd why is the 11-5 year one of his best coaching jobs ever? He won a SB in a similar situation with Brady (also the backup going into the year). He had a 16-0 regular season.
This post was edited on 1/22 4:28 PM by Cubs79

 

[timbo37059]

Brady is one if the best QB's. I wouldn't compare him to Matt Cassel. It was a big deal to sit Bledsoe at the time. Clearly he made the right decision.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by timbo37059:
Brady is one if the best QB's. I wouldn't compare him to Matt Cassel. It was a big deal to sit Bledsoe at the time. Clearly he made the right decision.

But again, Bledsoe was named the starter after training camp. It isn't like he made a bold move to start Brady over Bledsoe. He started Brady because Bledsoe got hurt, and he kept Brady in because they were winning. If Bledsoe never got hurt, then Brady might very well have never seen the field for the Patriots.

 

[nhwildcat]

cubs you take the loss and go on...dont make excuses...and it was Bettis and his partner that said if it was the jags and titans it wouldnt be a story not me

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by nhwildcat:
cubs you take the loss and go on...dont make excuses...and it was Bettis and his partner that said if it was the jags and titans it wouldnt be a story not me

I take the loss? What loss are you talking about? We are having a discussion, which is the point of a message board.

ANd I understand it was Bettis and his partner. That doesnt mean I cant disagree with them. Jerry Rice has said that it is absolutely cheating. So let;s not act like Bettis's opinion is the end all be all of this discusssion.

 

[NoleMoreTears]

Originally posted by Manch.:


The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

To be fair, a coach can improve and "get it right." Nothing to say we shouldn't give him credit for improving his craft. I tink you're being a bit dismissive, though I certainly understand why.

That and having a cheap but productive QB helps...

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by NoleMoreTears:

Originally posted by Manch.:


The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

To be fair, a coach can improve and "get it right." Nothing to say we shouldn't give him credit for improving his craft. I tink you're being a bit dismissive, though I certainly understand why.

That and having a cheap but productive QB helps...

His argument is no different than Belichick though. Belichick was ran out of Cleveland after having 4 losing seasons in 5 years, and his first season in NE he was 5-11. So Belichick had 5 losing seasons in his first 6 years of coaching. Did he vastly improve? Which I will certainly admit is possible, and I certainly think he is a good coach. Or, should Brady get more credit for the Patriots sudden turn around? I dont think there is any question Belichick is a really good coach. But, when you consider he has a losing record without Tom Brady, and especially when you throw in the cheating, is he really one of the elite coaches of all time? That, I think is debatable.

And Carroll made the playoffs in 2 out of 3 seasons with the Pats, so he wasn't a complete failure like Manch is trying to make him out to be.

 

[nhwildcat]

cubs...you asked when they should talk about it......i meant the you...as in you guys...not you personally
..."you" as in team...don't make excuses after a loss


This post was edited on 1/22 6:44 PM by nhwildcat

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by nhwildcat:
cubs...you asked when they should talk about it......i meant the you...as in you guys...not you personally
..."you" as in team...don't make excuses after a loss


This post was edited on 1/22 6:44 PM by nhwildcat

Ok, I get what you mean now, thanks for the clarification .

But in saying that, the Colts supposedly did complain about it after their game in November. Should the league not get it corrected at that point so we dont have to have this discussion after a playoff game?

 

[NY_22_Nole]

The Patriots have earned the cheater accusations.

We don't know for sure who did it, but 11 out of 12 balls all 2 lbs. under the requirement is obviously not an accident. I doubt that was some overzealous ball boy or equipment manager either. It was probably Brady - BB may not have known anything about it.

I hear a lot of talking heads downplaying this (Cowherd) as they did with the spygate scandal. I will ask the same question: if it does not make a difference why would anyone do it?

The Patriots organization is going to pay a high price for this no matter what and they only have themselves to blame for it.

I am firm believer in paying the piper when you get caught - I don't want to hear about how everyone else does it until they get CAUGHT doing it.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by NY_22_Nole:

The Patriots have earned the cheater accusations.

We don't know for sure who did it, but 11 out of 12 balls all 2 lbs. under the requirement is obviously not an accident. I doubt that was some overzealous ball boy or equipment manager either. It was probably Brady - BB may not have known anything about it.

I hear a lot of talking heads downplaying this (Cowherd) as they did with the spygate scandal. I will ask the same question: if it does not make a difference why would anyone do it?

The Patriots organization is going to pay a high price for this no matter what and they only have themselves to blame for it.

I am firm believer in paying the piper when you get caught - I don't want to hear about how everyone else does it until they get CAUGHT doing it.

Yep. Rules are in place for a reason. If it makes no difference, it wouldn't be a rule.

And the 2nd bolded, I agree too. I can't stand these arguments that "everyone does it". First off, we don't know that. I am sure there are teams that get close to crossing the line, and maybe even some that do it various ways. But, without proof, then it is simply deflecting from a team that did get caught. After the penalties and punishment the Saints got, I am interested to see what comes of this. I think draft picks for certain will be taken away, but considering this is the 2nd time, I think serious suspensions need to be in place too. Possibly half a season for Belichick and/or Brady.

What a disaster of a season for the NFL. WIth the Ray Rice thing dominating headlines early in the season, and now controversy after all 3 weeks of the postseason. Other than maybe steroids in baseball, when was the last time a league's season was tarnished from start to finish as much as this NFL season has been?
This post was edited on 1/22 8:00 PM by Cubs79

 

[nhwildcat]

definitely a black eye on pats organization..Their needs to be some punishment handed down to the organization. As of now i don't know how you can punish an individual without concrete proof they did something. Yeah someone did something without a doubt, but like i said until their is proof...i don't think you can pin it on anyone person. Maybe down the road pics or a confession will surface. but, i haven't seen anything.

 

[NoleMoreTears]

I honestly cannot believe Tom Brady would not feel a difference in the ball. Maybe intentional deflation, maybe not, I don't know.

I do know that the second the curve of my stick was off or dirty grooves on a golf club, I knew instantly and without any doubt. The fact that they might practice with muddy or wet or partly deflated balls means nothing - guy has thrown 100,000 passes - he knows.

 

[NoleMoreTears]

Originally posted by Cubs79:

Originally posted by NoleMoreTears:

Originally posted by Manch.:


The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

To be fair, a coach can improve and "get it right." Nothing to say we shouldn't give him credit for improving his craft. I tink you're being a bit dismissive, though I certainly understand why.

That and having a cheap but productive QB helps...

His argument is no different than Belichick though. Belichick was ran out of Cleveland after having 4 losing seasons in 5 years, and his first season in NE he was 5-11. So Belichick had 5 losing seasons in his first 6 years of coaching. Did he vastly improve? Which I will certainly admit is possible, and I certainly think he is a good coach. Or, should Brady get more credit for the Patriots sudden turn around? I dont think there is any question Belichick is a really good coach. But, when you consider he has a losing record without Tom Brady, and especially when you throw in the cheating, is he really one of the elite coaches of all time? That, I think is debatable.

And Carroll made the playoffs in 2 out of 3 seasons with the Pats, so he wasn't a complete failure like Manch is trying to make him out to be.

Belichick did improve and it's pretty well documented in his biography and the football life. His team went something like 11-5 without Brady so there really is no debate about his skills.

People change, coaches improve.

 

[Cubs79]

Originally posted by NoleMoreTears:

Originally posted by Cubs79:

Originally posted by NoleMoreTears:

Originally posted by Manch.:


The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

To be fair, a coach can improve and "get it right." Nothing to say we shouldn't give him credit for improving his craft. I tink you're being a bit dismissive, though I certainly understand why.

That and having a cheap but productive QB helps...

His argument is no different than Belichick though. Belichick was ran out of Cleveland after having 4 losing seasons in 5 years, and his first season in NE he was 5-11. So Belichick had 5 losing seasons in his first 6 years of coaching. Did he vastly improve? Which I will certainly admit is possible, and I certainly think he is a good coach. Or, should Brady get more credit for the Patriots sudden turn around? I dont think there is any question Belichick is a really good coach. But, when you consider he has a losing record without Tom Brady, and especially when you throw in the cheating, is he really one of the elite coaches of all time? That, I think is debatable.

And Carroll made the playoffs in 2 out of 3 seasons with the Pats, so he wasn't a complete failure like Manch is trying to make him out to be.

Belichick did improve and it's pretty well documented in his biography and the football life. His team went something like 11-5 without Brady so there really is no debate about his skills.

People change, coaches improve.

I didnt say there was a debate about him being a good coach, I said there is a debate on just how good a coach he is with regards to being one of the elite coaches of all time. And no, one 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is not proof a coach is super elite. Cassel was a Pro Bowler and won a division with Todd Haley as his coach with the Chiefs and I dont think anyone thinks Haley is even a good head coach, much less an elite HC.

 

[hatsbo]

Originally posted by Manch.:
First, not a Pats fan.

Second, this is the barking dog syndrome, you know, when there are 10 dogs in the neighborhood, and 10 dogs are barking because one dog barked, and now there are 10 dogs barking and not one dog knows why they are barking.

The press is at it again, feeding everyone that the Patriots are these big time cheaters, and the public just eats it up. The Pats/Belichick were fined pretty hard and draft choices were taken back in 2007 and because of this one time, the Pats are perceived as these big time, win at all costs cheaters, and the press has driven this as hard as they can.

This whole "being cheaters" propaganda is based on one proven incident and stories and rumors. If this was Tampa Bay, or just about any other team, this would be such a non-story. Stories of team communications going down.......happen every week, things "happen" every week, especially to road teams.

Yes, history was written in 2007, but that doesn't mean the Pats franchise are continuous cheaters.

And with Spygate, several teams and coaches came out and said that filming the opponents practices is common place, and as far as the air in the ball, it's as common a practice as tying one's shoes. The Patriots for caught and paid the price.

And how did the Patriots get caught? They were turned in by 2 teams informing other teams what they thought the Patriots were up to, why? Because they were bitter rivals who couldn't beat the Patriots, so the Pats must be cheating, and why didn't the Jets and Ravens turn the Patriots in at the time they thought it happened? Because the story that I heard is that they were doing something similar and they needed to clean their house before the babysitter told mom and dad.

I do not condone anything that is done outside the written rules, but I find it laughable that one team is singled out by bitter rivals who could not beat the Pats, bitter rivals that were probably doing the exact same thing, or something similar. We are going on a decade now from "Spygate", I think it's time to move on.

Belichick hasn't been around as long as he has because he is a lousy coach, perhaps he's been around as long as he has because he's a better cheater than everyone else, or at least that's the rumor.

With the way the NFL bungled and lied about the ray Rice elevator tape, they have put themselves in a position that mandates they come down hard on anything that the press over reacts to, gotta protect that "NFL shield" at all costs now. Lynch is wearing a different color cleat this week? Balls might be .3 PSI under? Give me a break, the Super Bowl is next week and they can't afford to piss off Dove soap, so now they have to pretend they care and are tough on these 1,696 players that are so many painkillers that they get addicted and not to mention the number of players that are jacked up on HGH and other forms of PED's. That part kills me, a Ray Lewis type of player that is jacked up on something, and has probably committed several serious felonies over the years, sitting in front of his locker, Tweeting that the Patriot's footballs are a breathe under the league's PSI limit after they beat someone 45-7, where a Colts player said that the Pat's could have used a Dove bar and still won by a score of 45-7.

Looks like I'm late in the game on this, but you put it as succinctly as anyone could. What's amazing is Nole fans lapping up and parroting everything the press has to say on this after seeing FSU receive similar treatment over Winston's antics.

 

[NoleMoreTears]

Originally posted by Cubs79:

Originally posted by NoleMoreTears:

Originally posted by Cubs79:

Originally posted by NoleMoreTears:

Originally posted by Manch.:


The same Pete Carroll who couldn't win in New England or New York where Belichick (as an assistant head coach with the Jets) did?

Pete Carroll is not even close to being a great head coach.

To be fair, a coach can improve and "get it right." Nothing to say we shouldn't give him credit for improving his craft. I tink you're being a bit dismissive, though I certainly understand why.

That and having a cheap but productive QB helps...

His argument is no different than Belichick though. Belichick was ran out of Cleveland after having 4 losing seasons in 5 years, and his first season in NE he was 5-11. So Belichick had 5 losing seasons in his first 6 years of coaching. Did he vastly improve? Which I will certainly admit is possible, and I certainly think he is a good coach. Or, should Brady get more credit for the Patriots sudden turn around? I dont think there is any question Belichick is a really good coach. But, when you consider he has a losing record without Tom Brady, and especially when you throw in the cheating, is he really one of the elite coaches of all time? That, I think is debatable.

And Carroll made the playoffs in 2 out of 3 seasons with the Pats, so he wasn't a complete failure like Manch is trying to make him out to be.

Belichick did improve and it's pretty well documented in his biography and the football life. His team went something like 11-5 without Brady so there really is no debate about his skills.

People change, coaches improve.

I didnt say there was a debate about him being a good coach, I said there is a debate on just how good a coach he is with regards to being one of the elite coaches of all time. And no, one 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is not proof a coach is super elite. Cassel was a Pro Bowler and won a division with Todd Haley as his coach with the Chiefs and I dont think anyone thinks Haley is even a good head coach, much less an elite HC.

I'm not really ure why you continually go this route with these words but whatever. You said is elite status is debatable - I disagree. You win 11 games without your starting QB, that's impressive. Add 6 SB appearances: elite. Then you want to change to super elite - WTF does that even mean? You mince and parse tiny bits of things with people and then go overboard in your own descriptions.

I wouldn't waste any energy commenting in this manner other than you probably have good points to make but they get totally derailed with these tactics. Best of luck