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Tax Reform

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Fijimn

Veteran Seminole Insider
May 7, 2008
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Looking for generic/accounting (boring) non-political opinions on the tax reform bill that was floated today. It seems to me, if I read it correctly, a family that makes less than 100K that owns a home isn't going to fair as well as a non-itemized deducting (read: homeowner) will. Now, the LR will be ballers dropping tax rate by 4% while keeping the mortgage interest deduction on our castles.

Any insight?
 
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Itemizing isn't required. If you fair better with the standard deduction you take that.

But you have to itemize to take the mortgage deduction. Thus, if they are going to double the standard and eliminate most other deduction, not a lot of tax incentive to buy a home. I'd have to do the calculations, but considering maintenance, risk, etc.- homeownership may be not the best route.
 
Looking for generic/accounting (boring a f-) non-political opinions on the tax reform bill that was floated today. It seems to me, if I read it correctly, a family that makes less than 100K that owns a home isn't going to fair as well as a non-itemized deducting (read: homeowner) will. Now, the LR will be ballers dropping tax rate by 4% while keeping the mortgage interest deduction on our castles.

Any insight?

I haven't sought out nitty gritty details, but is there enough info out there to put together a comparison right now?
I thought I read that while three replacement rates had been floated, but that the congressional committees would hammer out the range of the brackets. Given that I don't know how I could compare how my family would fair under changes.
 
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But you have to itemize to take the mortgage deduction. Thus, if they are going to double the standard and eliminate most other deduction, not a lot of tax incentive to buy a home. I'd have to do the calculations, but considering maintenance, risk, etc.- homeownership may be not the best route.
So would you rent instead?

I guess the other benefit to buying is potentially making a profit when you do sell.
 
I'd have to do the calculations, but considering maintenance, risk, etc.- homeownership may be not the best route.

What's the time frame you're looking at? I get because of transactions costs not wanting to purchase a property if you expect to move soon, but you're always going to need a place to live. How is it advantageous long term to not eventually own a house and not have a payment? I don't get making someone else's principal and interest payments forever as a net win. Can someone show me how the math works on that?
 
The proposal is not fully spelled out, but I think everyone would get the standard deduction and then could claim the mortgage interest deduction in addition.
 
But you have to itemize to take the mortgage deduction. Thus, if they are going to double the standard and eliminate most other deduction, not a lot of tax incentive to buy a home. I'd have to do the calculations, but considering maintenance, risk, etc.- homeownership may be not the best route.

Tax incentives/consequences should not be the primary reason for investment decisions. Like I said, if the standard deduction is higher, why wouldn't anyone want to use that vs itemization? I have plenty of clients that have a mortgage that don't itemize b/c they do not have enough other deductions. So they get the higher standard deduction. I have not had one complaint about not getting the mortgage deduction in 35 years of doing returns..
 
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I wish I could fully deduct all of my wifes' and I medical bills. Three surgeries between the two of us is a wallet killer
 
Tax incentives/consequences should not be the primary reason for investment decisions.

Kind of depends on your angle to the problem. Your primary purpose is always future purchasing power, but wouldn't concern for tax consequences rise with the amount at stake? Guy saving $10k has different focus than the guy trying to saving $1mm, right?

Like I said, if the standard deduction is higher, why wouldn't anyone want to use that vs itemization? I have plenty of clients that have a mortgage that don't itemize b/c they do not have enough other deductions. So they get the higher standard deduction. I have not had one complaint about not getting the mortgage deduction in 35 years of doing returns..

Anger on this one might be more localized. Factor in the notion of no longer having the feds subsidize state income taxes and these proposals are going to have different effects for people in the same brackets in different parts of the country:

"Homeowners now can deduct interest paid on as much as $1 million in mortgage debt. Some Republicans have been considering reducing the limit to $500,000. If that were to happen, about 489,000 filers in California would see an average increase of about $3,290 in their federal taxes, according to an analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center."
 
Kind of depends on your angle to the problem. Your primary purpose is always future purchasing power, but wouldn't concern for tax consequences rise with the amount at stake?

Concern yes. You take into account tax consequences. I have seen it all too often where taxes far and away is the primary consideration.


"Homeowners now can deduct interest paid on as much as $1 million in mortgage debt. Some Republicans have been considering reducing the limit to $500,000. If that were to happen, about 489,000 filers in California would see an average increase of about $3,290 in their federal taxes, according to an analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center."

High home prices in Calif aside, $500,000 in yearly mortgage interest means you have a home that is fairly well above your average home. You would think that is someone with a significant amount of other assets. Of course there was the housing bubble. Hopefully that is not the case now.
 
At the end of the day, I wonder how all these proposed cuts will be paid for. If all they're doing is reducing revenue, deficits will soar.
They should be reducing spending as well. But the other part is while the percentage rates are being reduced many deductions are being eliminated thus making many loopholes used to pay much lower taxes and/or no taxes for some particularly the wealthy that have lobbyists in Washington with heavy influence on getting tax deductions in the law. The other part is the belief that they will be adding more tax payers to the system as well as many corporations that currently have things in other countries for the benefit of lower tax rates than the U.S. They bring that portion of their business back to U.S. and thus pay something into the U.S for it instead of nothing as well as hire peeps in the U.S. again creating more taxpayers. Not saying this will or will not work, but that would be the belief by some.
 
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They should be reducing spending as well. But the other part is while the percentage rates are being reduced many deductions are being eliminated thus making many loopholes used to pay much lower taxes and/or no taxes for some particularly the wealthy that have lobbyists in Washington with heavy influence on getting tax deductions in the law. The other part is the belief that they will be adding more tax payers to the system as well as many corporations that currently have things in other countries for the benefit of lower tax rates than the U.S. They bring that portion of their business back to U.S. and thus pay something into the U.S for it instead of nothing as well as hire peeps in the U.S. again creating more taxpayers. Not saying this will or will not work, but that would be the belief by some.
They should be reducing spending but we know that never happens. To count on 6% growth to pay for the cuts is pure folly.
 
Interested to see the details. My fear is it will cut taxes for lower/middle classes and for wealthy with lots of income from investments but will not be as good for those with high income from wages.
 
I believe I heard the biggest blow will be for those in NY and California and other statrs that have high state and property taxes as those will no longer be deductible.
Phew!! In the LR, we hate those people anyway. So who cares?
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They should be reducing spending but we know that never happens. To count on 6% growth to pay for the cuts is pure folly.

It sounds like the projected deficit is a sticking point for many in the House and some in the Senate. This proposal will probably change significantly
 
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It sounds like the projected deficit is a sticking point for many in the House and some in the Senate. This proposal will probably change significantly

Interesting no one in DC is interested in the current deficit.
 
Can't remember the last time the country ran a budget surplus. Anybody?
 
Can't remember the last time the country ran a budget surplus. Anybody?
Unless I'm mistaken, it was at the end of Bill Clinton's 2nd term.

There was a budget surplus.

Al Gore wanted to put it toward shoring up Social Security.

Dubya promised everyone a $500 (or thereabouts) tax "refund."

Dubya won.
 
Seems like it should be relatively simple concept. Spend less than what you get in. :D

In microeconomic terms, I would agree. I should not spend more than I make. tends to be more complicated in the macro view. There are several papers/studies that suggest defined deficit spending is the most beneficial for a nation. Several other factors complicate that theory: unfunded future liabilities, funding war on terror, etc. On a pure theoretical economic view, it's an interesting debate. But difficult to have without interjection of personal beliefs (why does my brain do that) of how to divide the pie.
 
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It sounds like the projected deficit is a sticking point for many in the House and some in the Senate. This proposal will probably change significantly
I wonder how often the projections are accurate or how much they are off if anyone goes back and does that. Especially when there are tax changes and they update it to be able to see the original projection versus the reality of what happened. And then wonder if someone does analysis on what caused the projection to be off and then if they update their assumptions to take that into account for their next projections.
 
I always wonder why people want to give tax cuts to people who don't pay taxes?

The most recent IRS data I saw had 60% of a tax filers (probably closer to 70%) paid no federal taxes, and paid no payroll taxes, after the inclusion of transfer payments and such. In fact the middle quintile of tax payers (41-60) received over $15,000 on average of transfer payments/subsidies.

They could give every consumer a tax break by eliminating corporate taxes, and offset it with a cut in spending of roughly $350b/year, which is nothing in a $4T+ government budget and do nothing else and you would see the economy soar.
 
They could give every consumer a tax break by eliminating corporate taxes,
Ha. I don't think very many people on either side are going to go for that or even come close to agreeing with completely eliminating corporate tax with no other stipulations or regulations. There would need to be some sort of requirement to get more people on board. Something perhaps related to having X# of employees making X # of dollars and say no one employed being at a wage that is below a certain threshold. Additionally not having work subcontracted out overseas to ensure Americans are the recipients of them no longer paying any tax. And in turn their employees would be contributing to some tax revenue.

A few other things that I think are a pipe dream would be term limits for everyone in congress. No more lifetime pension plans for them. Have them get into a 401k and social security like a vast majority of Americans have to do. And no raises to their salary until there is no longer a deficit.
 
Ha. I don't think very many people on either side are going to go for that or even come close to agreeing with completely eliminating corporate tax with no other stipulations or regulations. There would need to be some sort of requirement to get more people on board. Something perhaps related to having X# of employees making X # of dollars and say no one employed being at a wage that is below a certain threshold. Additionally not having work subcontracted out overseas to ensure Americans are the recipients of them no longer paying any tax. And in turn their employees would be contributing to some tax revenue.

A few other things that I think are a pipe dream would be term limits for everyone in congress. No more lifetime pension plans for them. Have them get into a 401k and social security like a vast majority of Americans have to do. And no raises to their salary until there is no longer a deficit.

Corporate taxes depress worker wages and benefits, elimination would free up capital for other things, such as rewarding productive employees. It would also get rid of the repatriation of the trillions of money held over seas by US corporations. More capital means more investments.
 
Corporate taxes depress worker wages and benefits, elimination would free up capital for other things, such as rewarding productive employees. It would also get rid of the repatriation of the trillions of money held over seas by US corporations. More capital means more investments.
I understand the concept but certainly you understand the potential for abuse of it not going to their employees or only going to the Senior Senior management positions of the corporation. So rather than waiting for the abuse to happen and then react, why not put some measures in place to ensure the capital in fact goes to the employees.

I have worked for a large corporation in the banking industry no less for 22 years and counting. And guess what when they were in trouble not giving their employees raises and bonuses was understandable. But now that they have repaid the government and are making billions a quarter did they return to a previous or similar reward system for the mid level and lower level employees? Hell no. Granted I could leave and look for another job and don't get me wrong, there are positives for working here and some of the benefits and flexibility in schedule I receive out weighs that for me at this time.

But make no mistake corporations can be very fing greedy and not give the extra money to their employees. I suppose you could argue well then the employees will just go to another corporation that is compensating better. Well then what if many in the same industry have similar compensation/appraisal processes.

Oh and by the way eliminating the corporate tax rate isn't even on the table. I believe the president wanted it to be at 15%, but the current bill being proposed has it at 20%.
 
Yes, I expect all of us in here will be dealt a serious blow.

Seriously though, thresholds for top 1% is about $475k or so and top 5% is around $170k. Huge difference between that and Warren Buffett. People talk about "the rich" needing to pay more, but those at the lower end of the top 1% or 5% scale get caught up in that.
 
Corporate taxes depress worker wages and benefits, elimination would free up capital for other things, such as rewarding productive employees. It would also get rid of the repatriation of the trillions of money held over seas by US corporations. More capital means more investments.
Please provide proof that lowering taxes raises revenue or investment.
 
Corporate taxes depress worker wages and benefits, elimination would free up capital for other things, such as rewarding productive employees. It would also get rid of the repatriation of the trillions of money held over seas by US corporations. More capital means more investments.
You're assuming that all of the freed up cash will be designated to capital. And even if additional cash is designated to capital, that it'll be used to buy things that are built/programmed/etc by Americans. What if all that extra capital is used to buy IT assets that were made by foreign companies overseas? More than likely though, extra cash = larger bonuses for the C-level execs.
 
More than likely though, extra cash = larger bonuses for the C-level execs.

Who, as a result of that fat bonus, will buy more Starbucks (jobs!) and when they spill the Starbucks in their BMW they'll need it detailed (more jobs!), and then will decide that the car still smells like pumpkin spice latte so it's time for a new car (supporting manufacturing!)

The Starbucks Corollary to trickle down economics.
 
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