We're all mindful of treating the American flag with respect...

[saenole]

...displaying it properly, not letting it touch the ground, etc.

But how does it work when people use the flag design as part of their wardrobe? For example, John Daly was wearing pants yesterday made of multiple images of the flag. It's common to see the flag on shirts, hats, cocktail napkins...even bikinis.

Thoughts?

 

[Nolezilla]

I think it's subject to interpretation on what you view as being a "flag". What I mean is, making red, white, blue and stars into clothing with the same print design as our flag, to me is not wearing the flag as clothing.

Now, taking an actual flag and either cutting it up into or wearing it (not just draped over your shoulders) as clothing, that to me violates the flag code of conduct.

 

[NoleFan2U]

Are the Olympians "wearing" the flag when they drape it over their shoulders? Asking for a friend.

 

[ericram]

I am partial to the American Flag string bikini. I support that at full mast.

 

[Urban Cryer]

An actual flag is different than clothing.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I am partial to the American Flag string bikini. I support that at full mast.

Do you get many compliments?

 

[jamnolfin]

Im only offended when its done on purpose, same with anthem. Im not mad at Shawn White when he drug it on ground. It was a bad look and he should be called out on it so he learns from it. I feel guilty when Im raising it on my pole in the backyard and it touches the ground and nobody sees it but me. Its all about intent for me. If you drape a flag around you with respect in victory or defeat it shows pride in your country.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I was alarmed by Shaun White dragging the flag around for what seemed like a solid minute. (Was actually shocked no one made much of a big deal about it - he lucked out)

But at the end of the day all the feelings around using it as clothing or letting it touch the ground or disrespecting it just strike me as outrage based putting your patriotism on a pedestal. So I'm like whatever, many things way more concerning to occupy my time with than this symbolic stuff.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Not to change the subject but what in the world was Fergie doing with the National Anthem at the NBA All Star game?

 

[F4Gary]

Not to change the subject but what in the world was Fergie doing with the National Anthem at the NBA All Star game?

Hacking it.

 

[Bill From Tampa]

Not to change the subject but what in the world was Fergie doing with the National Anthem at the NBA All Star game?

Stylin'. Thy all do it now as if it is a contest to see who can do the most outlandish version.

 

[fsu1jreed]

An actual flag is different than clothing.

Technically, it's not.

 

[CC0492]

So do Brits get bent out of shape by these?

 

[Urban Cryer]

Technically, it's not.

Really?

 

[fsu1jreed]

Really?

The US Flag on clothes is actually against U.S. Flag Code of 1942, because even though it's on the clothes it's still viewed as "the flag".

 

[saenole]

To me, something that looks just like our flag is still our flag even if it's part of someone's clothing. And John Daly's golf pants don't seem like a respectful way to display this image.

 

[Hayduke GW]

So do Brits get bent out of shape by these?

No, but the Brits are not nearly as uptight as Americans are. They don’t look for things to get upset about like we do.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

No, but the Brits are not nearly as uptight as Americans are. They don’t look for things to get upset about like we do.

I'm curious if other industrialized nations indoctrinate patriotism as much as we do, and if they inject it into as many aspects of day to day life as we do.

I really don't know the answer to that nor do I have a fully formed opinion of which I'd prefer.

 

[SeaPA]

I'm curious if other industrialized nations indoctrinate patriotism as much as we do, and if they inject it into as many aspects of day to day life as we do.

I really don't know the answer to that nor do I have a fully formed opinion of which I'd prefer.

I'd be interested to know that, too. From watching international matches, the fans seem to enthusiastically sing their national anthems; the players sing sometimes, mouth the words sometimes. They don't seem to typically do the hand over the heart - much more common to see them arm in arm.

 

[TarponSpringsNole]

Do you get many compliments?

I do.

 

[cfbfan23]

I'm curious if other industrialized nations indoctrinate patriotism as much as we do, and if they inject it into as many aspects of day to day life as we do.

I really don't know the answer to that nor do I have a fully formed opinion of which I'd prefer.

 

[FSUTribe76]

I'm curious if other industrialized nations indoctrinate patriotism as much as we do, and if they inject it into as many aspects of day to day life as we do.

I really don't know the answer to that nor do I have a fully formed opinion of which I'd prefer.

America is almost universally the only “modern” nation and really only alleged “democracy” that forces citizens to pledge allegiance to the flag and government. Europeans do NOT understand our enforced “patriotism” and mock us pretty hardcore for it. It’s basically us and a laundry list of tinpot dictators like Best Korea.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=92227

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I'm curious if other industrialized nations indoctrinate patriotism as much as we do, and if they inject it into as many aspects of day to day life as we do.

I really don't know the answer to that nor do I have a fully formed opinion of which I'd prefer.

The international students whom I see are uniformly surprised and a bit unnerved by the public performance of nationalism/patriotism that is normal in the U.S. The reverence for and ubiquity of the flag, in particular, often raises questions and confusion.

 

[Nole Lou]

I have a bit of a problematic/ambivalent relationship with patriotism and the flag. My son is a boy scout, and obviously that teaches great respect for the flag and to some extent patriotism, and I don't have any problem with it.

But I've long since shed any particular jingoistic patriotic inclinations. My allegiance is to my family, and my God. I would fight for the USA if it came to that, but it would be based around protecting my family and my family's future and the right to practice my religion.

It's transactional...it's the best place for me to live, that I can live. I think many of the principles that the USA was founded on and/or operates on are admirable and valid. But if those changed (and they do), or better opportunities existed, I don't think I feel a particular allegiance.

I also don't know what exactly is meant by pledging allegiance or patriotism or flag-fetishizing in general...is it to our government? Our military? Our President? An idea?

Honestly, the only one of those that's compelling is that you're honoring an idea, or the set of ideas that America is based on, even though human execution has always been wanting, right from the jump. I do find those principles and ideas extremely compelling, but I don't know what it means to pledge allegiance, or honor, or sing an anthem to an idea or set of ideas, in a practical sense.

Frankly, the dissolution of my patriotism might simply be a casualty of the end of the cold war and a true external state threat to our way of life.

 

[seminole97]

America is almost universally the only “modern” nation and really only alleged “democracy” that forces citizens to pledge allegiance to the flag and government. Europeans do NOT understand our enforced “patriotism” and mock us pretty hardcore for it. It’s basically us and a laundry list of tinpot dictators like Best Korea.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=92227

I remember telling my teacher I found the pledge of allegiance at odds with the Declaration of Independence, and my affections were for the latter.
No repercussions.
This was probably in 7th grade.

 

[Fijimn]

My experience living and visiting latin American countries (primarily Colombia and Peru) suggest they are equally as nationalistic and reverent to patriotic symbolism. Indeed, voting is mandatory and viewed as a civic obligation, the World Cup is viewed through a prism of nationalistic pride as well as Gold Cup. I think the difference is that in most countries there isn't a plethora of civic/sporting nationalistic events like there is in America.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I have a lot of pride in our country, and never had any problem with saying the pledge or singing the national anthem. I still get the warm and fuzzies when I land back in the US and see the flag after being gone even for a week. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

But I also understand that what truly makes us great is giving people the freedom to NOT do those things, without repercussion from the government.

I despise the USA! USA! USA! stuff because I think most of those chanting don't have a freaking clue about what it really means to be an American.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I have a bit of a problematic/ambivalent relationship with patriotism and the flag. My son is a boy scout, and obviously that teaches great respect for the flag and to some extent patriotism, and I don't have any problem with it.

But I've long since shed any particular jingoistic patriotic inclinations. My allegiance is to my family, and my God. I would fight for the USA if it came to that, but it would be based around protecting my family and my family's future and the right to practice my religion.

It's transactional...it's the best place for me to live, that I can live. I think many of the principles that the USA was founded on and/or operates on are admirable and valid. But if those changed (and they do), or better opportunities existed, I don't think I feel a particular allegiance.

I also don't know what exactly is meant by pledging allegiance or patriotism or flag-fetishizing in general...is it to our government? Our military? Our President? An idea?

Honestly, the only one of those that's compelling is that you're honoring an idea, or the set of ideas that America is based on, even though human execution has always been wanting, right from the jump. I do find those principles and ideas extremely compelling, but I don't know what it means to pledge allegiance, or honor, or sing an anthem to an idea or set of ideas, in a practical sense.

Frankly, the dissolution of my patriotism might simply be a casualty of the end of the cold war and a true external state threat to our way of life.

Interesting and totally understandable point of view. I can agree with a lot you wrote, certainly from a practical perspective.

America means a lot of different things to a lot of different Americans, none of them particularly right or wrong. We're a grossly imperfect nation, founded on some virtuous ideals, which from day one we've failed to live up to, and often we've directly contradicted them -- as has nearly every nation on earth. It's the fight to move towards those ideals and create a "more perfect union" that would keep me here even if somewhat better opportunities arose elsewhere.

To me it is a bit more than a transactional relationship. It's a battle to create a society history would be proud of, and each of us doing our small part toward that end. Thus far, there are many things to be proud of, but likely many more to be immensely embarrassed of, which is all the more reason to work harder, because we have a unique opportunity to achieve what no other society on earth could.

As for the flag-fetishizing, classroom indoctrination, and injection of patriotism before various sporting events -- I could do without all of that, it strikes me as the preoccupation of the insecure. I prefer to focus on the aforementioned virtues, our system of government, our failures and successes, and history of civil movements.

But yes, I still do get chills when I land at JFK after an international trip... and then I get out to the street and wonder why we can't keep one of the world's greatest and most wealthy cities clean.