Cosby => Harvey W et. al. => what's next?

[Nolomite]

and more importantly, where does it end?

While there is a negative side to #metoo, in general I think it is a good thing...I don't think the taint of "on the margins of Hollywood" women grasping at short-term attention is going to bury the positive impact of all the media exposure of the misdeeds. The scope of the stories, if nothing else, shows that there is a BIG problem that the entertainment industry has buried for too long. The natural progression for "Hollywood exposed" will soon accelerate to the institutionalized pedophilia that has been rampant in "the Industry" for decades - but #metoo applies far beyond Hollywood.

It is going to be a bit strange while "acceptable behavior" and "social norms" churn around while they seek a new equilibrium. My GF can't talk about any of this without going off on a rant about women who pair a push-up bra with a plunging collar to farm for expensive dinners, and while I agree with her conversationally, I can't see the institution of "horny geeks getting exploited" changing even a little bit in the foreseeable future.

Just like the random acts of violence, I think this "battle for gender equality" will get uglier before it begins to find a peaceful resolution.

While #metoo exposure will continue to spread into other geographies and industries, l have to believe that other forms grassroots of social reform will be coming soon. Do you have any guesses as to what might be next?

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Big names being outed will get less big, media will move on and we'll go back to business as usual.

 

[DanC78]

Has South Park produced a #metoo episode yet?

 

[Nolomite]

Big names being outed will get less big, media will move on and we'll go back to business as usual.

Until "the next big thing" happens - and the media will create one if one doesn't pop up naturally.

 

[noleville]

The tops about to be blown off the top of hypocrite Hollywood. .Cory Feldman has officially filed a police complaint about pedophiles in Hollywood. He's been talking about child molesters for years, now the law's involved.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

it ends when men stop sexually harassing and assaulting women and when those who do are punished appropriately.

so more likely than not, there will be no end in sight.

we should all be hoping every one of these scumbags gets exposed and publicly shamed.

 

[West Duval Nole]

And Mariah Carey's bodyguard reports he was sexually harassed. Haven't looked at the facts but just on the surface and hearing it, I call complete BS.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Haven't looked at the facts but just on the surface and hearing it, I call complete BS.

That seems to be the prevailing method of decision making these days. If it feels a certain way, it must be so.

 

[West Duval Nole]

That seems to be the prevailing method of decision making these days. If it feels a certain way, it must be so.

Yes I know. I think you are even guilty of this as we all are. I haven't seen all the facts against Harvey but assume he is guilty. And sadly I probably fall into the majority who thinks for the most part when men are accused they are guilty and women accused are probably not. It might be pretty terrible thing to say and I probably shouldn't do that but I can admit to my faults.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Yes I know. I think you are even guilty of this as we all are. I haven't seen all the facts against Harvey but assume he is guilty. And sadly I probably fall into the majority who thinks for the most part when men are accused they are guilty and women accused are probably not. It might be pretty terrible thing to say and I probably shouldn't do that but I can admit to my faults.

One caveat I will make about this for most people is when it is a political figure or someone that voices political opinions. Then many times people just take up the political side they lean towards and either assume guilt of the person because their politics don't line up with theirs or assume it's a money grab or political attack from someone on the other political side.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

One caveat I will make about this for most people is when it is a political figure or someone that voices political opinions. Then many times people just take up the political side they lean towards and either assume guilt of the person because their politics don't line up with theirs or assume it's a money grab or political attack from someone on the other political side.

Don't they do that with sports also? How many on Warchant (rightly, I think) took up for Jameis based on feeling we 'knew' him before having a chance to review of the police reports and tox results while also condemning Treon Harris, Kobe Bryant, Ben Rothlisberger, etc etc...

Politics is just another team sport these days, nothing more, nothing less. Sadly.

 

[Nolomite]

it ends when men stop sexually harassing and assaulting women and when those who do are punished appropriately.

so more likely than not, there will be no end in sight.

we should all be hoping every one of these scumbags gets exposed and publicly shamed.

My point is that "sexual harassment" and "sexual assault" are being redefined...this will likely take a few iterations before it settles in. For example, a dozen years ago I had to sit through "sexual harassment orientation" when starting a job, where I learned that "staring at a specific body part" fell under harassing conduct. In other words, if I chose to look at someone's elbow while the prattled on about nothing interesting, that could have been an actionable offense.

 

[seminoledq]

And Mariah Carey's bodyguard reports he was sexually harassed. Haven't looked at the facts but just on the surface and hearing it, I call complete BS.

Is he claiming he was assaulted/harassed by Mariah Carey?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Time to add another alleged creeper to the list, Alabama's Roy Moore.

This type of behavior is not bound by race, age, religion, sexual orientation, or political affiliation. As a society, we have to be better at raising young men to look at others as equals at not simply objects for sexual objectification and gratification.

 

[Fijimn]

Looks like Louis CK is on the on deck circle.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Looks like Louis CK is on the on deck circle.

The list of batters seems to be endless.

Semi-related, this is a pretty solid read for all the "why'd it take them so long to come forward" folks: https://www.thecut.com/2017/11/eddie-huang-why-i-denied-my-sexual-assault-for-20-years.html

 

[FSUTribe76]

Looks like Louis CK is on the on deck circle.

He was well known to be a creep for awhile now. I can remember hearing rumors about him the first year his show was a decent hit.

 

[SoddyNole]

Charlie Sheen ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062721/Charlie-Sheen-sodomized-Corey-Haim-13-set-Lucas.html

 

[seminole97]

And Mariah Carey's bodyguard reports he was sexually harassed. Haven't looked at the facts but just on the surface and hearing it, I call complete BS.

I read one article on it. Mentioned her asking him to come into her room and move luggage while she was in an open, sheer negligee.

Now imagine instead of Mariah it’s gross Harvey in an open robe and nothing else asking a female staffer to come in his room and move his luggage.

Good for the goose, good for the gander?

 

[Fijimn]

The list of batters seems to be endless.

Unfortunately, that is probably true. The legal field is as bad as any other of these areas. I have never been sexually harassed, but abuse was rampant at my previous two firms. Environments where partners threw stuff at you; demeaned you, your spouse...everything. I had one fellow associate who said one partner wiped his ass with a brief he wrote and gave it back to him. My current firm, which I have been a partner in for several years is completely different; hence, why I have stayed.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Unfortunately, that is probably true. The legal field is as bad as any other of these areas. I have never been sexually harassed, but abuse was rampant at my previous two firms. Environments where partners threw stuff at you; demeaned you, your spouse...everything. I had one fellow associate who said one partner wiped his ass with a brief he wrote and gave it back to him. My current firm, which I have been a partner in for several years is completely different; hence, why I have stayed.

precisely why it's a bad idea to let a-holes and people who frequently belittle and berate others into positions of power...

 

[Fijimn]

precisely why it's a bad idea to let a-holes and people who frequently belittle and berate others into positions of power...

Well....if money didn't talk and bs walk...

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Now a**hole bosses are the issue?

I think the more this issue gets diluted the more likely it is that nothing changes.

 

[Nolomite]

I read one article on it. Mentioned her asking him to come into her room and move luggage while she was in an open, sheer negligee.

Now imagine instead of Mariah it’s gross Harvey in an open robe and nothing else asking a female staffer to come in his room and move his luggage.

Good for the goose, good for the gander?

Actually yes, given the way most HR rules are written (and they are typically reflective of the state statutes)...typically worded as harassment including "creating a hostile work environment". So, one does not have to say anything overtly sexual, let alone touch something, to have committed harassment in the workplace.

The offense becomes far more actionable when the act/environment/whatever are coupled with an offer of a job/raise/whatever, OR the threat of not hiring/firing if the "target" does not put out. Eddie Murphy got burned by this at least once, having been successfully sued for 7 figures for conducting his own "casting couch" sessions.

The temporary nature of employment in the movie industry makes the attempt at quid pro quo far more attractive than trying to pull that off when hiring a State employee.

 

[noleville]

A) Thanks to the GREATEST generation EVER (Millennia's) harassment is whatever you say it is. If you demand an employee is on time, that's harassment. If you don't allow students to take a test home because they were just too busy protesting to study, that's harassment and (of course) supporting white supremacy. The biggest problem with most of these cases is those that use PC logic try to joining REAL assault and rape cases.

 

[noleville]

A) Thanks to the GREATEST generation EVER (Millennia's) harassment is whatever you say it is. If you demand an employee is on time, that's harassment. If you don't allow students to take a test home because they were just too busy protesting to study, that's harassment and (of course) supporting white supremacy. The biggest problem with most of these cases is those that use PC logic try to joining REAL assault and rape cases.

AND B)...Isn't harassment and assault all about power? If that's the case women in the entertainment industry sure as hell can be just as bad as men. Mariah Carey was accused of this same exact thing by other men in her circle.

 

[noleclone2]

Amazing how many of these cases involve after initial rejection dude pulling out his junk and going to town on himself, often trapping the woman by blocking exit. Like that is going to be their punishment. Or turn them on? Watching a bloated old man rough up the suspect is not exactly going to help.

 

[RangerNole]

Time to add another alleged creeper to the list, Alabama's Roy Moore.

This type of behavior is not bound by race, age, religion, sexual orientation, or political affiliation. As a society, we have to be better at raising young men to look at others as equals at not simply objects for sexual objectification and gratification.

Bacardi just curious but do you see any issues with this type of accusation on a politician right before an election, that is almost 40 years old? If he did it then crush him I have no issue with that; however my spidey sense starts to tingle when a guy that has been public life for the better part of 4 decades and just before an election a couple of folks pop up and say hey 40 years ago this guy did this.
IMO we as a society need to do a better job of helping people bring this up when it happens; when it is brought up so long after the fact it makes people wonder; not saying they aren't being truthful just that not only does it make it a little harder to believe, but harder to prove. While I would like to think we could also effect those that are the aggressor in this; I just don't see that happening, bad people will likely just be bad people. The other issue that we as a society need to get a handle on is what is the standard for this stuff. I am not in favor of ruining a person life over a bad joke or a hooters calendar in their cubicle.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Bacardi just curious but do you see any issues with this type of accusation on a politician right before an election, that is almost 40 years old? If he did it then crush him I have no issue with that; however my spidey sense starts to tingle when a guy that has been public life for the better part of 4 decades and just before an election a couple of folks pop up and say hey 40 years ago this guy did this.
IMO we as a society need to do a better job of helping people bring this up when it happens; when it is brought up so long after the fact it makes people wonder; not saying they aren't being truthful just that not only does it make it a little harder to believe, but harder to prove. While I would like to think we could also effect those that are the aggressor in this; I just don't see that happening, bad people will likely just be bad people. The other issue that we as a society need to get a handle on is what is the standard for this stuff. I am not in favor of ruining a person life over a bad joke or a hooters calendar in their cubicle.

a) no - if it really did happen, and it seems the post did a credible job vetting this with multiple sources before publishing, then the timing of it doesn't bother me at all. moore put a wild card out there, he has no right to complain about the timing of when it gets played - don't do something scummy and you have nothing to worry about.

b) agree 100% we need to do a better job of helping people bring this up when it happens -- i think we're beginning to move in that direction with the recent #metoo trend, but there are a lot of old incidents that still need to come out before as well

c) as far as the standard in these situations, i believe the law and society have spoken when it comes to 30something year old men making out with 14 year old girls -- it's not acceptable. moore isn't accused of telling some bad joke or having a tasteless calendar, he's accused of getting intimate with girls in their mid teens.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

A) Thanks to the GREATEST generation EVER (Millennia's) harassment is whatever you say it is. If you demand an employee is on time, that's harassment. If you don't allow students to take a test home because they were just too busy protesting to study, that's harassment and (of course) supporting white supremacy. The biggest problem with most of these cases is those that use PC logic try to joining REAL assault and rape cases.

AND B)...Isn't harassment and assault all about power? If that's the case women in the entertainment industry sure as hell can be just as bad as men. Mariah Carey was accused of this same exact thing by other men in her circle.

not sure who or what you're arguing with here, but no one here is claiming anything in your A) rant is harassment unless it's coupled with abusive language. so yea,... i mean feel free to make stuff up and be angry about it if that's how you want to spend your friday morning.

B) no one is denying women can be the aggressors in cases of sexual harassment. instances of it maybe more rare, but certainly they do occur

there... ya feel better?

 

[RTM58]

Unfortunately, that is probably true. The legal field is as bad as any other of these areas. I have never been sexually harassed, but abuse was rampant at my previous two firms.

Probably worse, and I'm not buying a breadwinner and weekend bread maker like yourself has never been sexually harassed. The lady solicitors can be aggressive.

 

[RangerNole]

a) no - if it really did happen, and it seems the post did a credible job vetting this with multiple sources before publishing, then the timing of it doesn't bother me at all. moore put a wild card out there, he has no right to complain about the timing of when it gets played - don't do something scummy and you have nothing to worry about.

b) agree 100% we need to do a better job of helping people bring this up when it happens -- i think we're beginning to move in that direction with the recent #metoo trend, but there are a lot of old incidents that still need to come out before as well

c) as far as the standard in these situations, i believe the law and society have spoken when it comes to 30something year old men making out with 14 year old girls -- it's not acceptable. moore isn't accused of telling some bad joke or having a tasteless calendar, he's accused of getting intimate with girls in their mid teens.

Fair enough. I take it as your position is if a claim is made and there are credible sources then it is likely true. Assume you have this opinion regardless of who the sources are or who the reporting agencies is. My greater question is more about sexual harassment; IMO sexual assault is much easier to determine since there is physical action. Sexual harassment over the years has ranged from a bad joke to constantly asking someone out to asking for sex in order to get something. Where is the line drawn in your opinion? If I have a picture of my wife in a bathing suit in my office and a female says it is inappropriate, does this meet the standard? What about is a good looking female wears low cut blouses and skirts all the time to the office?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Fair enough. I take it as your position is if a claim is made and there are credible sources then it is likely true. Assume you have this opinion regardless of who the sources are or who the reporting agencies is. My greater question is more about sexual harassment; IMO sexual assault is much easier to determine since there is physical action. Sexual harassment over the years has ranged from a bad joke to constantly asking someone out to asking for sex in order to get something. Where is the line drawn in your opinion? If I have a picture of my wife in a bathing suit in my office and a female says it is inappropriate, does this meet the standard? What about is a good looking female wears low cut blouses and skirts all the time to the office?

I certainly look at certain news organizations as having higher bars for investigative journalism ethics than others, but that's not really a topic for this thread.

As far as sexual harassment, I believe each state has it's own policy and most employers (as a poster stated above) heavily leverage those guidelines in their company policy.

I know people hate having to deal with things that aren't binary, but we are humans living with other humans, there is no finite definition of harassment, each company applies it based on their own standards of what they feel is best for their culture and employees.

Above everything else you need to know your audience and have the intelligence to understand how each individual will react to various risks your inner child wants to take.

Frankly, in my opinion you're at work to work, any action that has any slight risk of being considering harassment is not worth the risk, so leave it at home or in your brain -- adults should have some small ability to exercise the impulse control we expect of children.

Regarding the examples you provided...
- wife in bathing suit on desk - depends on the bathing suit and the audience that comes by your desk - leave it at home
- hottie wearing low cut blouses/skirts - depends on the work environment, what is considered normal attire for other women - leave it at home

Basically if you have to ask yourself the question, don't do it. It's work, not Cancun.

 

[RangerNole]

I certainly look at certain news organizations as having higher bars for investigative journalism ethics than others, but that's not really a topic for this thread.

As far as sexual harassment, I believe each state has it's own policy and most employers (as a poster stated above) heavily leverage those guidelines in their company policy.

I know people hate having to deal with things that aren't binary, but we are humans living with other humans, there is no finite definition of harassment, each company applies it based on their own standards of what they feel is best for their culture and employees.

Above everything else you need to know your audience and have the intelligence to understand how each individual will react to various risks your inner child wants to take.

Frankly, in my opinion you're at work to work, any action that has any slight risk of being considering harassment is not worth the risk, so leave it at home or in your brain -- adults should have some small ability to exercise the impulse control we expect of children.

Regarding the examples you provided...
- wife in bathing suit on desk - depends on the bathing suit and the audience that comes by your desk - leave it at home
- hottie wearing low cut blouses/skirts - depends on the work environment, what is considered normal attire for other women - leave it at home

Basically if you have to ask yourself the question, don't do it. It's work, not Cancun.

Fair enough I tend to disagree; but that is fine. For me I error on the everyone is offended by something threshold as this seems to be where we are as a society. Low cut blouse and skirt can be fine with 90% of the office; but 1 man or woman says that bothers me and we cave. Picture of wife and I in bathing suits on a trip is fine for most people; but the 1 person who has an issue gets their way. I am fine either way and at some point everything will offend someone and I have seen to many careers and reputations destroyed by some BS claim. While the initial claim gets all the attention the end results if they clear the person usually get no attention.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Fair enough I tend to disagree; but that is fine. For me I error on the everyone is offended by something threshold as this seems to be where we are as a society. Low cut blouse and skirt can be fine with 90% of the office; but 1 man or woman says that bothers me and we cave. Picture of wife and I in bathing suits on a trip is fine for most people; but the 1 person who has an issue gets their way. I am fine either way and at some point everything will offend someone and I have seen to many careers and reputations destroyed by some BS claim. While the initial claim gets all the attention the end results if they clear the person usually get no attention.

It's so insanely easy to avoid getting in hot water at work, in 17 years I haven't even come close. How? I don't do stupid stuff or stuff I think will annoy the people I work with.
Work is work, not Cancun.

I don't get why so many people are like "you never know what will offend someone." Yes, yes you do.
If you don't, you lack the ability to know your audience, should be aware of your lack of self-awareness, and just stop taking risks.

Like the type of person who'd put a pic of themselves and their wife in bathing suits on their desk... they're just generally not suited for a professional work environment in my opinion. It shows a decision making process that lends itself to other unrelated liabilities in the future. A lack of professional common sense.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

It's so insanely easy to avoid getting in hot water at work, in 17 years I haven't even come close. How? I don't do stupid stuff or stuff I think will annoy the people I work with.
Work is work, not Cancun.

I don't get why so many people are like "you never know what will offend someone." Yes, yes you do.
If you don't, you lack the ability to know your audience, should be aware of your lack of self-awareness, and just stop taking risks.

Like the type of person who'd put a pic of themselves and their wife in bathing suits on their desk... they're just generally not suited for a professional work environment in my opinion. It shows a decision making process that lends itself to other unrelated liabilities in the future. A lack of professional common sense.

Agreed

It is a little scary though that one crazy employee could completely destroy your reputation and career anytime they wanted to.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Agreed

It is a little scary though that one crazy employee could completely destroy your reputation and career anytime they wanted to.

Not really.
They can make an allegation if they'd like, but considering my essentially unblemished record and reputation, and a lack of any evidence whatsoever, it would be tough to have any internal review result in a negative finding on my part.

I don't live scared about that stuff. Someone could just as easily accuse me of beating them up on a sidewalk when all they did was slam their own head into a wall. Someone could accuse me of insider trading, someone could accuse me of being into Maroon 5. Having proof of any of this is where they'll all stumble.

Met up w/ a friend last night, she's told me about multiple instances of being harassed, multiple times by men who previously had helped her deal with a prior harasser. The advice she got from others, stay and collect documentation, then if it worsens, say something. Companies are reticent to act on any allegation that isn't documented, frequently to a fault.

 

[RTM58]

Not really.
They can make an allegation if they'd like, but considering my essentially unblemished record and reputation, and a lack of any evidence whatsoever, it would be tough to have any internal review result in a negative finding on my part.

Met up w/ a friend last night, she's told me about multiple instances of being harassed, multiple times by men who previously had helped her deal with a prior harasser.

Harvey was unblemished until he wasn't, or should I say until he was bludgeoned.

Yeah but was she harassed by any women, cause that would be interesting.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Yeah but was she harassed by any women, cause that would be interesting.

No, only by men.
Little perplexed by the series of posts in this thread extending the sexual harassment and assault epidemic onto women. Let's man up, own this as an issue of our gender, and be proactive about calling out and reporting our fellow man. We must police our own.
No one is denying that women can and have committed both of these violations, however let's be real in saying this is primarily an issue in which males are the aggressor.
There is no false equivalence to be drawn in regards to the scope and frequency of males vs females in committing these violations.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Not really.
They can make an allegation if they'd like, but considering my essentially unblemished record and reputation, and a lack of any evidence whatsoever, it would be tough to have any internal review result in a negative finding on my part.

I don't live scared about that stuff. Someone could just as easily accuse me of beating them up on a sidewalk when all they did was slam their own head into a wall. Someone could accuse me of insider trading, someone could accuse me of being into Maroon 5. Having proof of any of this is where they'll all stumble.

Met up w/ a friend last night, she's told me about multiple instances of being harassed, multiple times by men who previously had helped her deal with a prior harasser. The advice she got from others, stay and collect documentation, then if it worsens, say something. Companies are reticent to act on any allegation that isn't documented, frequently to a fault.

Where's the "proof" come in on any of this? You are being incredibly naive here.