Whatever the result of the countersuit, any media hack who fails to read the 63 page document, and continues to comment on Winston's "character issues," should be run out of journalism for malpractice.
Jameis files counter-suit
- Thread starter montconole
- Start date
Well written response. Here are the thoughts I have in terms of problems she has if Winston can prove what's in there.
1. If he can prove her number is in Winston's phone, she is screwed. If he can't prove that, he should not have alleged that. To that end, I don't understand why he immediately alleges Casher told Winston he got her number. Related to this, if they can show that WInston texted her, she is not only screwed, she will be in major trouble with the court because it means she intentionally destroyed evidence. I am torn on this because I think TPD got the source data from the carrier, and there was nothing from Winston. I can't believe they would allege this, though, if they could not prove it.
2. There appears to be a game of chicken with the cab story. I am really curious if Clune found someone to claim he saw something.
3. If there are texts from Kinsman to Kessler, this will get even uglier.
4. "Post coital conversation." I love it. I would have been on the team writing this when they decided on that language (yes, there is a team, and they parse every word). The same goes for "the only thing she has been consistent at is being inconsistent."
5. I think the specifics of the lies/evolution of the story are well set forth. I wish they attached the source documents as exhibits to make the pdf of the whole things easier for the world to see.
6. I wish they quoted the texts between th8e K girls. Many won't look to source materials. The fact is this is not really a legal pleading; it was written for the press and public (and I like that).
7. I literally cannot wait to read the contemporaneous correspondence about the alleged offers. Again, I wish they quoted and/or attached them.
8. I wish they had something to attach or quote for the offer to have her move classes. If FSU did not put that in writing, I will be very, very disappointed in them.
9. Jamal is listed as the boyfriend. I have always heard they were just F buddies. I wonder if they have talked to him and have him on board.
10. I am not a fan of most of the affirmative defenses.
11. That counterclaim could destroy her for her entire life. A compensatory damages judgment for lost sponsor/ad money would be based on an intentional tort. I have not looked into that, though, and I am not a bankruptcy guy.
We are in a for a wild ride. With the counterclaim filed, they really can't pull that back.
1. If he can prove her number is in Winston's phone, she is screwed. If he can't prove that, he should not have alleged that. To that end, I don't understand why he immediately alleges Casher told Winston he got her number. Related to this, if they can show that WInston texted her, she is not only screwed, she will be in major trouble with the court because it means she intentionally destroyed evidence. I am torn on this because I think TPD got the source data from the carrier, and there was nothing from Winston. I can't believe they would allege this, though, if they could not prove it.
2. There appears to be a game of chicken with the cab story. I am really curious if Clune found someone to claim he saw something.
3. If there are texts from Kinsman to Kessler, this will get even uglier.
4. "Post coital conversation." I love it. I would have been on the team writing this when they decided on that language (yes, there is a team, and they parse every word). The same goes for "the only thing she has been consistent at is being inconsistent."
5. I think the specifics of the lies/evolution of the story are well set forth. I wish they attached the source documents as exhibits to make the pdf of the whole things easier for the world to see.
6. I wish they quoted the texts between th8e K girls. Many won't look to source materials. The fact is this is not really a legal pleading; it was written for the press and public (and I like that).
7. I literally cannot wait to read the contemporaneous correspondence about the alleged offers. Again, I wish they quoted and/or attached them.
8. I wish they had something to attach or quote for the offer to have her move classes. If FSU did not put that in writing, I will be very, very disappointed in them.
9. Jamal is listed as the boyfriend. I have always heard they were just F buddies. I wonder if they have talked to him and have him on board.
10. I am not a fan of most of the affirmative defenses.
11. That counterclaim could destroy her for her entire life. A compensatory damages judgment for lost sponsor/ad money would be based on an intentional tort. I have not looked into that, though, and I am not a bankruptcy guy.
We are in a for a wild ride. With the counterclaim filed, they really can't pull that back.
Res judicata and collateral estoppel are legal concepts based on the idea that a case already decided in a legal forum is forever decided and can't be raised again. Technically, res judicata refers to entire claims (legal preclusion) and collateral estoppel refers to facts (fact preclusion). I think it's a collateral estoppel issue because the legal issues are not the same, but the facts tend to be. Some requirements for application of these legal principles are that the parties have to be the same (or in privity in federal court) and the person being precluded had to have a reasonable opportunity to address the issues in the first case. That's why I thought the more Clune was involved at the CoC hearing, the better for collateral estoppel.
Intentional torts are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. All of Jameis's counterclaims are intentional torts. Ms. Kinsman has dug herself into a very deep hole.
That is my guess, but I have to admit when I am speculating. My experience is bankruptcy stuff is not that simple. I hope it is.
This is quite the depository of information that media people will need to completely ignore if they are going to continue to slam Winston. Has anyone sent a copy to Joe Scarborough?
There is nothing to be gained from suing trailer trash. However, this pleading is a good way to publicly disseminate Winston's side of the story. Will be interesting to see what unfolds.
There is nothing to be gained from suing trailer trash. However, this pleading is a good way to publicly disseminate Winston's side of the story. Will be interesting to see what unfolds.
That's why I wish they'd attached Exhibits. Would be meaningless legally but helpful for public/media.
Nothing to be gained? IF he wins the civil suit AND his counter-suit ... you think the negative reputation generated by her accusations isn't purged completely? Not only does he get past the "rich athlete had better lawyers" thought, but instead it's "damn, he WAS innocent, after all."
Will this get to the point where Jameis sits for a deposition? Of course,Clay Travis, who plays lawyer on his website, thinks Jameis is foolish to pursue due to discovery.
pretty sure we know at least one media member who will ignore it or completely discount it .....
Matt Baker had no info because the family could not provide it to him. He is a lying sack of garbage and is in on it.
We know they won't read it because they never read any of the reports surrounding this event to begin with. And, unfortunately, Winston's character incidents were exasperated by the accusation, but also separate issues themselves.
First time that I finally saw an official document that stated that they shared names at Potbellys. She told police she didn't know who he was or what his name was. It only takes one lie for a jury to come after you - even a seemingly small one
Cracks me up how little play ESPN gives this. Kind of like when it first broke that they wanted 7 million to go away or when the autograph story turned out to be a complete farce. Crickets.
Allnoles, will this counterclaim mean that the matter will be put in court prior to the SOL on the rape running out? Or can they file this and still try to stall any suit from going forward until the SOL passes?
I can't wait to hear her explain her tweets, Facebook posts, why she deleted specific ones, why she changed her story so many times, why she wouldn't tell police about who the 2nd semen belonged to, all of it.
Res judicata will never work. Results of school conduct hearings have no affect on lawsuits in federal court, other then helpful or damaging evidence.
It's a weak argument. They're just tossing all their defenses on the wall hoping one might stick.
This case is a jury trial unless one side panics and settles.
I did not say it would work. I also said if anything worked it would be collateral estoppel, not res judicata. If there had been a forum where she had a chance to prove her case under the same standard and lost, there would be a good faith basis for defensive collateral estoppel. The problem is she wasn't really the party in the case so they have great arguments against it.
The SOL issue is a good point. I think with him seeking affirmative relief it would be very hard to argue the case should be stayed. Maybe, though.
The SOL issue is a good point. I think with him seeking affirmative relief it would be very hard to argue the case should be stayed. Maybe, though.
However...given Justice Harding used "based on the preponderance of evidence" standard in the COC hearing, and the same standard would be applied in a civil suit, wouldn't that potentially constitute EK being able to give her case? Justice Harding even used that exact language in his ruling which was upheld. Given Winston was accused of sexual assault and creating a hostile environment in that hearing?
I agree I doubt it works but I still think it's a decent argument to be made.
can't read the whole filing on my phone, but have a question...will they be able to bring parties like Matt Baker to the stand to testify under oath how he got this original information and how all of this got started in the beginning? Or is that not relevant for this trial? Seems to me there is a whole lot of "backstory" that we would all love to see answered once and for all
A code of conduct hearing at school does not preclude your potential remedies in federal court.
Not for EK or Jameis. Court will take a brand new look at the case and all the issues.
If they want to take his deposition, they'll subpoena him and he'll have to testify. Relevance standard in discovery is very broad.
The problem isn't the standard of proof. The problem is that the party in that case was FSU, not Kinsman.
Thought it was something along those lines, thanks!
I am just about done reading this, and as I thought when she filed her suit against JW, I don't think this will ever see the inside of a court on her behalf because of so many lies and inconsistencies. I am glad that JW is fighting this, especially after seeing that female reporter from a Fox station say that she hopes that JW doesn't take selfies (sp) of himself raping women. I hope that if there is further action taken by JW, that reporters like her are on his hit list.
I have read Kinsman's complaint and I watched her attorney's press conference (Aunt Pat), and I have read JW's complaint and have watched Cornwell's appearance (I believe the appearance was at a law school and Cornwell was moderated by a friend who worked for ESPN). There can not be a bigger distance of incompetence if there ever was one. I watched as objectively as I could, and even though I leaned towards JW's version of the events because his version has been supported by facts and not lies and inaccuracies. I watched objectively, maybe to play devil's advocate, but I wanted to see if I was missing something and maybe Kinsman had some truth to her story because her council has not helped her at all by being so incompetent.
It has become very clear to me that this has been nothing but an ambulance chasing witch hunt, and the media fell for it. If I were a reporter, and in anyway reported or said anything that can be proven as defamation, I would be on the air making an apology and a retraction after reading JW's complaint.
I am also completely dumbfounded (I have stated numerous times that I wish that just ONE media source would take the time to read or investigate the facts, and report the story based on the facts, and not based on the innuendo spewed by Kinsman's camp) at how morally corrupt the media has been in reporting this case in the view and lies of Kinsman. The trolling of JW will not stop, but I bet it slows down and actually disappears from many news outlets.
If I were JW, I would rather spend millions defending myself, and not save millions by settling for a $5 payoff, with the settlement sealed, and giving the impression that he was in any way guilty.
It has become very clear to me that this has been nothing but an ambulance chasing witch hunt, and the media fell for it. If I were a reporter, and in anyway reported or said anything that can be proven as defamation, I would be on the air making an apology and a retraction after reading JW's complaint.
I am also completely dumbfounded (I have stated numerous times that I wish that just ONE media source would take the time to read or investigate the facts, and report the story based on the facts, and not based on the innuendo spewed by Kinsman's camp) at how morally corrupt the media has been in reporting this case in the view and lies of Kinsman. The trolling of JW will not stop, but I bet it slows down and actually disappears from many news outlets.
If I were JW, I would rather spend millions defending myself, and not save millions by settling for a $5 payoff, with the settlement sealed, and giving the impression that he was in any way guilty.
Also (sorry that I have multiple posts instead of just one), I have always tried giving Gator fans the benefit of the doubt that they aren't that bad, that there's always a few shitheads in every bucket, but I went over to their site a few days ago, and even some of the more respected Gator posters have gone on to say that JW is guilty and is a scumbag. I wonder if the "more" respected Gators have ever stepped foot on campus, because if they were actually ever students at UF, one would think that common sense in a matter like this would prevail, because the lies are so frequent and prevailing, but there are numerous threads slamming JW, and even a thread where Gator/Bucs fans stopped being Bucs fans because they drafted a known rapist like JW.
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Gators know for sure he's a rapist - they watched him rape their defense twice.
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