proof of vaccination or COVID-19 test to attend game

[ChiefWB]

They don’t. And at best it’s debatable. Numbers in hospitals are objective.

Your opinion is noted.

 

[Dhersh]

Now that it has approval is it still protected against lawsuits?

I'm not sure about the legal side of things. Of course companies like this have large teams of lawyers and are well advised on liability. If i had to guess, there is liability immunity built into PHE and EUA declarations as well.

 

[GbrNole]

I'm not sure about the legal side of things. Of course companies like this have large teams of lawyers and are well advised on liability. If i had to guess, there is liability immunity built into PHE and EUA declarations as well.

the EUA vaccination vials should still fall under the CICP. the FDA approved label vials should fall under VICP.

this was more to my point yesterday about the vials being medically interchangeable but legally distinct.

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | HRSA

www.hrsa.gov

 

[SteveT1]

Many things... but please, let's not be dense regarding the situation.

Governors infringing on the rights of institutions to implement their own policies, and then blackmailing them for a power grab is not right. If it comes to it, FSU deserves to be treated better by Florida's leaders.

I don’t know if there’s a right that he’s infringing on other than an elected officials right to the salary appropriated for their position

 

[SteveT1]

Can I ask which heart condition you are referring to? The only ones I know of that are confirmed to be related to vaccines (specifically mRNA vaccines) are myocarditis and pericarditis. I haven't reviewed the data, but the CDC considers it "rare" and both conditions are treatable.

It is noteworthy that COVID-induced myocarditis is also a thing. Limited data, but it is interesting to see. I found this article that examines both COVID-induced myocarditis and vaccine-induced myocarditis. I found it very interesting and maybe you could give it a read. It may give you a jumping off point to get you on your way to making an informed decision about it.

Yes, those were the 2 conditions that apparently is more prevalent post-vaccine in males under the age of 40.

 

[SteveT1]

Yet to be peer reviewed study out of Israel found that those who got the vaccine were 13x more likely to get breakthrough case of delta variant vs. those with natural immunity from a covid case in January or February of 2021. There is a waning natural immunity effect however. When removing early 2021 control, breakthrough cases for those vaccinated were only 6x more likely vs. those with natural immunity from a March 2020 - February 2021 covid case, and 7x more likely to be symptomatic.

 

[Dhersh]

Yet to be peer reviewed study out of Israel found that those who got the vaccine were 13x more likely to get breakthrough case of delta variant vs. those with natural immunity from a covid case in January or February of 2021. There is a waning natural immunity effect however. When removing early 2021 control, breakthrough cases for those vaccinated were only 6x more likely vs. those with natural immunity from a March 2020 - February 2021 covid case, and 7x more likely to be symptomatic.

Woah, do you have a link to the study? I'm very interested and would like to take a look.

Because this sounds like new data. And not only would it support some previous findings, but it is also beginning to pull back the curtain on upcoming answers to important questions.

• If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the Israeli population received Comirnaty (previously BNT162b2). This would support data that shows it is not as effective at fighting delta variant.
• This would support recommendations from Pfizer and Moderna, and backed by the CDC, for a booster shot. Initially, both mRNA vaccines provided immunity against all variants, with the exception of Comirnaty with delta. They found that efficacy dropped over time. Trials showed that a booster after the 2nd dose generated "robust" antibody response against all variants - as much as 10x greater immune response than after the 2nd dose.
• This would be the first study I have heard of that observed a waning immune response over time in those who were infected with SARS-CoV-2 and had developed natural immunity through infection. I know @AllNoles has been itching for that data to arrive.

 

[AllNoles]

I have and I am. I hadn’t read it closely yet but if I got it right later immunity was still better than the vaccine. Big issue is if it’s a decline to zero or if it is less robust but still in effect down the road.

 

[SteveT1]

Woah, do you have a link to the study? I'm very interested and would like to take a look.

Because this sounds like new data. And not only would it support some previous findings, but it is also beginning to pull back the curtain on upcoming answers to important questions.

• If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the Israeli population received Comirnaty (previously BNT162b2). This would support data that shows it is not as effective at fighting delta variant.
• This would support recommendations from Pfizer and Moderna, and backed by the CDC, for a booster shot. Initially, both mRNA vaccines provided immunity against all variants, with the exception of Comirnaty with delta. They found that efficacy dropped over time. Trials showed that a booster after the 2nd dose generated "robust" antibody response against all variants - as much as 10x greater immune response than after the 2nd dose.
• This would be the first study I have heard of that observed a waning immune response over time in those who were infected with SARS-CoV-2 and had developed natural immunity through infection. I know @AllNoles has been itching for that data to arrive.

Hope I didn’t get any of my summary wrong lol https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

[SteveT1]

I have and I am. I hadn’t read it closely yet but if I got it right later immunity was still better than the vaccine. Big issue is if it’s a decline to zero or if it is less robust but still in effect down the road.

Still effective.

 

[AllNoles]

I hope it stays. But we will only know as time passes.

 

[flmom777]

Hope I didn’t get any of my summary wrong lol https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

This is a study I’ve been wanting.

 

[FisherWilcoxTaggart Survivor]

They don’t. And at best it’s debatable. Numbers in hospitals are objective.

They definitely don’t work with young children, who actively trade them at school or otherwise wear them improperly. Anyone who thinks young kids are conscientiously wearing their masks and following instructions all day while mommy/daddy can’t see them is pretty naive. Go talk to public elementary school teachers and they’ll tell you the whole mask thing is generally a circus.

But the masks make certain parents feel better, and administrators can send the “we really care” emails and memos. LOL.

 

[Dhersh]

Hope I didn’t get any of my summary wrong lol https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Thanks! You did good brother.

Another important piece from Conclusions:

Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.​

​

This supports studies that the CDC had previously reviewed. Thanks for posting.

 

[ChiefWB]

They definitely don’t work with young children, who actively trade them at school or otherwise wear them improperly. Anyone who thinks young kids are conscientiously wearing their masks and following instructions all day while mommy/daddy can’t see them is pretty naive. Go talk to public elementary school teachers and they’ll tell you the whole mask thing is generally a circus.

But the masks make certain parents feel better, and administrators can send the “we really care” emails and memos. LOL.

Pretty wide net you cast there. My kid won't let us leave the house without masks. But he doesn't have agendas clouding up his reasoning.

 

[AllNoles]

That makes me sad. It really does.

 

[ChiefWB]

That makes me sad. It really does.

Not sure why a kid reminding his parents to bring their masks would make you sad? I don't want to make you even more sad but he also washes his hands without us telling him too.

 

[SteveT1]

Can I ask which heart condition you are referring to? The only ones I know of that are confirmed to be related to vaccines (specifically mRNA vaccines) are myocarditis and pericarditis. I haven't reviewed the data, but the CDC considers it "rare" and both conditions are treatable.

It is noteworthy that COVID-induced myocarditis is also a thing. Limited data, but it is interesting to see. I found this article that examines both COVID-induced myocarditis and vaccine-induced myocarditis. I found it very interesting and maybe you could give it a read. It may give you a jumping off point to get you on your way to making an informed decision about it.

Haven't read that article yet, but will. This is what I pulled from the Pfizer "labeling" doc

Myocarditis and Pericarditis Postmarketing data demonstrate increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, particularly within 7 days following the second dose. The observed risk is higher among males under 40 years of age than among females and older males. The observed risk is highest in males 12 through 17 years of age. Although some cases required intensive care support, available data from short-term follow-up suggest that most individuals have had resolution of symptoms with conservative management. Information is not yet available about potential long-term sequelae. The CDC has published considerations related to myocarditis and pericarditis after vaccination, including for vaccination of individuals with a history of myocarditis or pericarditis.

Understand that 20% or so myocarditis patients die of heart failure within 5 yrs of diagnosis, but that may be wrong. This is the big reason I'm wary of any vax mandate, particularly among the healthy. If I were in a vulnerable (to serious/deadly covid) group, I'd get vaccinated. Have some trouble understanding why we'd mandate vaccinations on those who have natural immunity. Fine to encourage, but not coerce, in my opinion.

 

[flmom777]

Thanks! You did good brother.

Another important piece from Conclusions:

Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.​

​

This supports studies that the CDC had previously reviewed. Thanks for posting.

Note it called for a single dose. That isn’t what the CDC calls for.

 

[Dhersh]

Note it called for a single dose. That isn’t what the CDC calls for.

A single dose *if you were already infected*. That's the difference, and they have been consistent with it since it started being studied. Consider it similar to a booster, the same way that one shot is being recommended 8 months after full vaccination.

So two shots when starting with no immunity (the second shot builds on the first), and one shot to build on immunity after infection.

 

[GbrNole]

Note it called for a single dose. That isn’t what the CDC calls for.

to be fair it didn't call for a single dose, the single dose is the study point.

one part of this study that i did note is that 94-96% of the study group in each of the three legs is under the age of 60 with a mean age of 36. in most locations the 60+ typically make up ~20% of all cases and 75-80% of the deaths so they appear to be underrepresented here.

the COVID survival rate in florida in the 30-39 age group is 99.898%

 

[flmom777]

to be fair it didn't call for a single dose, the single dose is the study point.

one part of this study that i did note is that 94-96% of the study group in each of the three legs is under the age of 60 with a mean age of 36. in most locations the 60+ typically make up ~20% of all cases and 75-80% of the deaths so they appear to be underrepresented here.

the COVID survival rate in florida in the 30-39 age group is 99.898%

European countries are only giving a single dose to covid recovered patients.

 

[flmom777]

to be fair it didn't call for a single dose, the single dose is the study point.

one part of this study that i did note is that 94-96% of the study group in each of the three legs is under the age of 60 with a mean age of 36. in most locations the 60+ typically make up ~20% of all cases and 75-80% of the deaths so they appear to be underrepresented here.

the COVID survival rate in florida in the 30-39 age group is 99.898%

I read the article linked above but also read this one that gives some information about the study.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org

 

[Dhersh]

Haven't read that article yet, but will. This is what I pulled from the Pfizer "labeling" doc

Myocarditis and Pericarditis Postmarketing data demonstrate increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, particularly within 7 days following the second dose. The observed risk is higher among males under 40 years of age than among females and older males. The observed risk is highest in males 12 through 17 years of age. Although some cases required intensive care support, available data from short-term follow-up suggest that most individuals have had resolution of symptoms with conservative management. Information is not yet available about potential long-term sequelae. The CDC has published considerations related to myocarditis and pericarditis after vaccination, including for vaccination of individuals with a history of myocarditis or pericarditis.

Understand that 20% or so myocarditis patients die of heart failure within 5 yrs of diagnosis, but that may be wrong. This is the big reason I'm wary of any vax mandate, particularly among the healthy. If I were in a vulnerable (to serious/deadly covid) group, I'd get vaccinated. Have some trouble understanding why we'd mandate vaccinations on those who have natural immunity. Fine to encourage, but not coerce, in my opinion.

Just an update on this. Current numbers show there is a 0.00126% chance of developing heart inflammation caused by vaccination. That is 12.6 people per 1,000,000. Very low odds, as per Yale. The FDA placed a warning label on mRNA vaccines regarding a “likely association” with reported cases of heart inflammation in young adults. The inflammation, in most cases, gets better on its own without treatment.

While not a perfect comparison, a recent study found 450 cases of myocarditis, pericarditis and myopericarditis per million COVID infections in a younger age group.

 

[SteveT1]

Just an update on this. Current numbers show there is a 0.00126% chance of developing heart inflammation. That is less than 12.6 people per 1,000,000. Very low odds, as per Yale. The FDA placed a warning label on mRNA vaccines regarding a “likely association” with reported cases of heart inflammation in young adults. The inflammation, in most cases, gets better on its own without treatment.

While not a perfect comparison, a recent study found 450 cases of myocarditis, pericarditis and myopericarditis per million COVID infections in a younger age group.

Thank you for that info.

 

[flmom777]

Just an update on this. Current numbers show there is a 0.00126% chance of developing heart inflammation caused by vaccination. That is 12.6 people per 1,000,000. Very low odds, as per Yale. The FDA placed a warning label on mRNA vaccines regarding a “likely association” with reported cases of heart inflammation in young adults. The inflammation, in most cases, gets better on its own without treatment.

While not a perfect comparison, a recent study found 450 cases of myocarditis, pericarditis and myopericarditis per million COVID infections in a younger age group.

If prefer to see the odds among specifically males under age 40.

 

[Dhersh]

If prefer to see the odds among specifically males under age 40.

Yeah that threat seems to increase in younger age groups. For now there isn't a ton of info about it.

 

[SteveT1]

Interesting article re Michigan State employee seeking injunctive relief preventing MSU from enforcing vax mandate against her because she previously had covid. Quotes from both sides are misleading, though local health official’s quote seems to ignore the new study out of Israel in its entirety. https://amp.lansingstatejournal.com/amp/5645176001?__twitter_impression=true

 

[AllNoles]

The failure to consider the impact of natural immunity when evaluating these public health policies is maddening. And it’s really bad for credibility.

 

[GbrNole]

Interesting article re Michigan State employee seeking injunctive relief preventing MSU from enforcing vax mandate against her because she previously had covid. Quotes from both sides are misleading, though local health official’s quote seems to ignore the new study out of Israel in its entirety. https://amp.lansingstatejournal.com/amp/5645176001?__twitter_impression=true

The GMU law professor dropped his case after GMU altered its policy and gave an exemption to allow him to rely on his prior positive COVID antibody test results. They did that with the requirement that he must at all times maintain a 6 foot distance from others and complete a COVID test once per week.

Senator Johnson from Wisconsin sent a letter to the FDA last week requesting that they clarify certain points of their pfizer approval letter.

 

[AllNoles]

No valid reason to treat him differently than vaxxed. That’s what I hate. They use this stuff to encourage or punish, not based on what risks really are.

 

[GbrNole]

No valid reason to treat him differently than vaxxed. That’s what I hate. They use this stuff to encourage or punish, not based on what risks really are.

it's frustrating but it accomplished his goal to be able to teach in person and not be subject to a mask mandate that he would have succumbed to had he used GMU's then (and still) available medical exemption.

 

[PopsNole]

The failure to consider the impact of natural immunity when evaluating these public health policies is maddening. And it’s really bad for credibility.

I would have no problem with someone presenting something showing the date of a positive test with an anti-body test potentially to get around vaccination requirements. However, keeping up with who got it when, have they had a booster 6-8 months later is going to be a nightmare.

 

[SteveT1]

I would have no problem with someone presenting something showing the date of a positive test with an anti-body test potentially to get around vaccination requirements. However, keeping up with who got it when, have they had a booster 6-8 months later is going to be a nightmare.

Same nightmare as keeping up with vaccination requirements + boosters

 

[flmom777]

I would have no problem with someone presenting something showing the date of a positive test with an anti-body test potentially to get around vaccination requirements. However, keeping up with who got it when, have they had a booster 6-8 months later is going to be a nightmare.

It requires no more effort than proving vaccination.

 

[PopsNole]

It requires no more effort than proving vaccination.

Vaccination has paper proof of you getting it. History of positive Covid test does not always have it.

 

[AllNoles]

Vaccination has paper proof of you getting it. History of positive Covid test does not always have it.

Sure it does. My results were recorded. Even if there’s some issue with home tests or something, could just tell people if they’re positive to retest at an official place to record it if they want. Something like that.

 

[GbrNole]

If i popped a COVID positive i would probably want to also get an antibody test to have some reassurance that my immune system was doing its thing.

 

[Dhersh]

If i popped a COVID positive i would probably want to also get an antibody test to have some reassurance that my immune system was doing its thing.

Ahh, yes the immune system doing its job. Also known as starting to feel better 😁

In all seriousness, imo it might be better to wait a few months just because the chances that antibodies are present immediately after recovery is extremely high.

 

[flmom777]

Vaccination has paper proof of you getting it. History of positive Covid test does not always have it.

If a covid test is required for those that previously were positive for covid it should also be required for vaccinated people. They have a pretty high rate of breakthrough covid positive.