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Aaron Hernandez

Finance85 said:
Are the reporters trying to turn the abuse into an excuse?
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I don't think anyone sees it as an excuse but it's part of his story and how it played out.

One doesn't just become a serial killer, a series of trauma and/or mental illness leads up to it. In Hernandez' case, likely both.

The extraordinary and tragic events of his life are a story worth telling and learning from.
 
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There are reasons why criminals are criminals, and a lot of these reasons aren't the criminal's fault (emotional disorders, family abuse, etc). Our justice system struggles with how much weight to put on these reasons when it comes to punishing the offender.
 
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saenole said:
There are reasons why criminals are criminals, and a lot of these reasons aren't the criminal's fault (emotional disorders, family abuse, etc). Our justice system struggles with how much weight to put on these reasons when it comes to punishing the offender.
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Very true.

Even more so our system struggles with how to address these issues before individuals become offenders in the first place.

Lot of lives could be saved (and improved) if we pretended to be one of the wealthiest countries in the history of the world and did something about mental health and abuse.
 
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ReliableOstrich said:
Very true.

Even more so our system struggles with how to address these issues before individuals become offenders in the first place.

Lot of lives could be saved (and improved) if we pretended to be one of the wealthiest countries in the history of the world and did something about mental health and abuse.
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Hate to say it, but once they become criminals like AH, they are damaged goods and their future positive contributions to society are slim.

I think you are right on about addressing issues early on. A lot of the kids with issues are easy to identify very early, well before they can become a danger to others.
 
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mcgrawfsu said:
Hate to say it, but once they become criminals like AH, they are damaged goods and their future positive contributions to society are slim.

I think you are right on about addressing issues early on. A lot of the kids with issues are easy to identify very early, well before they can become a danger to others.
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Guys like AH, once they've gone off the rails, maybe past the point of rehabilitation. However your average criminal can be rehabilitated but it's not likely to happen in our current prison system.

But yes, the above would be partly moot if we were better at getting folks help earlier on.
 
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ReliableOstrich said:
Guys like AH, once they've gone off the rails, maybe past the point of rehabilitation. However your average criminal can be rehabilitated but it's not likely to happen in our current prison system.

But yes, the above would be partly moot if we were better at getting folks help earlier on.
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I think in this case early on would've meant early childhood and it's usually not possible to intervene in a situation like that or the intervention is ineffective by the government i.e. DCF

I am interested more in the effects of early childhood trauma and later adult behavior. I don't know the correlation although there seems to be one.

however we have children who were completely traumatized and grew up healthy and we have children who are not traumatized and end up like Hernandez. I guess it's the age-old question of environment versus genetics

a truly tragic case all around and it displays that while you have everything on outward appearance you have nothing inward. a lesson for all
 
This thread sparked an interesting thought. Urban was providing everything to Aaron that the "justice system" wasn't, for selfish reasons obviously. Urban through sports allowed him to get an education, housing, popularity, fame and trained him to have a very lucrative career in the NFL. Aaron was given more than one second chance in college with the help of Urban who somehow managed to keep him out of the justice system. Didn't Urban have Tebow as his roommate, mentor and role model? Would Urban have done any of these things if Aaron wasn't a very good college player? We all know the answer being an emphatic, hell no! But do we blame both Urban for giving him everything and then blame the justice system for taking all away? Could Urban have done more to help Aaron? Is the justice system to blame for playing their part? Or was Aaron just genetically destined to be a sociopath and no interaction was going to change his course of actions.
 
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SoddyNole said:
This thread sparked an interesting thought. Urban was providing everything to Aaron that the "justice system" wasn't, for selfish reasons obviously. Urban through sports allowed him to get an education, housing, popularity, fame and trained him to have a very lucrative career in the NFL. Aaron was given more than one second chance in college with the help of Urban who somehow managed to keep him out of the justice system. Didn't Urban have Tebow as his roommate, mentor and role model? Would Urban have done any of these things if Aaron wasn't a very good college player? We all know the answer being an emphatic, hell no! But do we blame both Urban for giving him everything and then blame the justice system for taking all away? Could Urban have done more to help Aaron? Is the justice system to blame for playing their part? Or was Aaron just genetically destined to be a sociopath and no interaction was going to change his course of actions.
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Is that Jimmy Clausen in your avatar?
 
SoddyNole said:
This thread sparked an interesting thought. Urban was providing everything to Aaron that the "justice system" wasn't, for selfish reasons obviously. Urban through sports allowed him to get an education, housing, popularity, fame and trained him to have a very lucrative career in the NFL. Aaron was given more than one second chance in college with the help of Urban who somehow managed to keep him out of the justice system. Didn't Urban have Tebow as his roommate, mentor and role model? Would Urban have done any of these things if Aaron wasn't a very good college player? We all know the answer being an emphatic, hell no! But do we blame both Urban for giving him everything and then blame the justice system for taking all away? Could Urban have done more to help Aaron? Is the justice system to blame for playing their part? Or was Aaron just genetically destined to be a sociopath and no interaction was going to change his course of actions.
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Sure urban (ie uf) gave him an opportunity for top notch coaching, a college education, housing, food, etc... but those things aren't fixes, or even patches, for a person who's broken deep down inside. They're simply bandaids over bulletholes in his psyche. Potentially they're even validation that the toxic aspects of his personality were acceptable, if not commendable.

Lot of folks need actual mental health therapy and counselling from a clinically trained therapist, you don't get that in an accounting class or on a practice field. Two totally different things and I haven't read anything to the effect of urban or his rolemodel roommate getting him the right kind of mental help.
 
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Pretty interesting person, & a lot should be learned from his life.

I’m curious what role his being gay played in his overall insecurities and machismo. I imagine it made him act out in some brutal ways. Also, we never really learned the motives to several of the incidents, ie the Gainesville shooting, or even the Boston double homicide. Wonder if his masculinity was called into question.

Even the Odin murder, it was basically speculated he knew some stuff about him, right? Most thought it was dirt (again, Boston double homicide). Maybe it was his affair.

Purely speculation.
 
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NebNoles said:
Pretty interesting person, & a lot should be learned from his life.

I’m curious what role his being gay played in his overall insecurities and machismo. I imagine it made him act out in some brutal ways. Also, we never really learned the motives to several of the incidents, ie the Gainesville shooting, or even the Boston double homicide. Wonder if his masculinity was called into question.

Even the Odin murder, it was basically speculated he knew some stuff about him, right? Most thought it was dirt (again, Boston double homicide). Maybe it was his affair.

Purely speculation.
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Well if you RTFA that the OP posted they were pretty explicit that he was beaten regularly by his drunken father for being a “F” word and told to “man” up. So I’m sure that violence because of his sexual identity 100% led him into being the serial killer he became.

Plus that seems to be statistically significant in all serial killers. About 43% of serial killers are gay or bisexual while in the population it’s about 2-10% depending on the report. Almost all were beaten on and picked on as a kid for being less than “manly”. Literally 100% of serial killers reported being abused either sexually, physically and/or with neglect with 40% being physically beaten and 70% being sexually abused. So it’s not the fact he was gay that led to him being a serial killer, it’s the fact that being effeminate “caused” the physical abuse and may have been a factor as to why he was chosen as a victim in whatever sexual abuse he suffered as a kid (he and his brother were hush hush as to the identity of the sexual abuser). And that sexual abuse and physical abuse regardless of the cause pushed him down the path to becoming a serial killer.
 
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Imtotallynottribe said:
Well if you RTFA that the OP posted they were pretty explicit that he was beaten regularly by his drunken father for being a “F” word and told to “man” up. So I’m sure that violence because of his sexual identity 100% led him into being the serial killer he became.
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Lol, I read 2 articles yesterday, one from the Boston Globe and one from NYPost, neither of which are the linked articles.

It’s too bad, really. Sad stuff.
 
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ericram said:
A lot of people have traumatic experiences or come from broken families or grow up in the hood. They don't all become killers.
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This is a guy who experienced violence and abuse at a young age and grew up unable to be his true self for fear of more violence and abuse.

That scenario rarely plays out well. With the victim either lashing out or hurting his or herself.

In this case, AH did both of the above. Tragic. For him, for his victims, for his daughter and wife.

Lots of folks along the way could have intervened - seemingly no one cared to b/c he was scoring a lot of TDs. Because no one did anything, the body count piled up.
 
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"He is looking at me wide-eyed,'' (Brandn) Lloyd recalled of Welker, "and he says, 'I just want to warn you that (Hernandez) is going to talk about being bathed by his mother. He's going to have his genitalia out in front of you while you're sitting on your stool. He's going to talk about gay sex. Just do your best to ignore it. Even walk away.'''

The report also notes that star quarterback Tom Brady had once told Tim Tebow that he was trying to watch over Tebow's former Florida teammates Hernandez and linebacker Brandon Spikes, but that they were "a lot to handle."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...es-new-england-patriots-describe-odd-behavior
 
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Still have to read part 3 in the Boston Globe series (running out of browsers to circumvent their 1 article paywall), but illustrates quite clearly how much stuff gets overlooked if you're a good football player. The guy was literally a menace, exhibiting violence and unstable characteristics, and guys like tebow were pleading for it to be ignored when even a scumbag like meyer wanted to be done with him.
 
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I think there is a new podcast on all this. Same producers that did the Charles Manson deal. Much of the content from the Globe sources.
 
Imtotallynottribe said:
No doubt, but apparently 100% of the serial killers did.
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Except for Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer and Dennis Raider.

Psch. Today article:

Social factors have some (even if only small) role to play in generating psychopathy. But after many years of investigating the minds of psychopaths, researchers have been unable to find any factors that could contribute to the development of psychopathic traits. Early childhood abuse or neglect often leads to posttraumatic stress disorder or phobias (e.g., in terms of making commitments). But anxiety disorders are typically associated with either greater connectivity between the amygdala and the vmPFC or a dysfunction of vmPFC that makes it unable to modulate negative information from the amygdala. We cannot exclude that childhood abuse or neglect may be a factor in making psychopaths commit crimes, but it's not a likely contributing factor to psychopathy itself. Furthermore, though serial killers like Charles Manson were abused and neglected as children, the list of serial killers with a normal childhood is long. Famous serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer and Dennis Rader grew up in healthy households with supportive family members.

I am not sure how a football coach, school or even someone in this field can point out a person in a crowd and say they will end up like AH. Was AH violent mean SOB on and off the field? Absolutely and so was many others he played football with.
 
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SoddyNole said:
I am not sure how a football coach, school or even someone in this field can point out a person in a crowd and say they will end up like AH. Was AH violent mean SOB on and off the field? Absolutely and so was many others he played football with.
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I don't think anyone had to point out AH and say "we gotta help this guy, he's def gonna be a mass murderer." But to the extent that urbie acknowledged wanting to throw the guy off the team b/c of his constant nonsense, it's clear that some intervention would be warranted seeing has how he had a multimillion dollar future but also a penchant for senseless violence and drugs. Instead he did nothing, sent him to be his buddy Belichick's problem.

All he had to do was say "Aaron, I want you to stay at uf one more year but I'm going to require you to attend weekly confidential pschy counseling sessions - no one will know. This isn't for anyone but you, but it's required." It was one simple conversation with one simple requirement.

Schools pour ungodly money into athletic "facilities" like lazy rivers, hot and cold pools, waterfalls, locker and weight rooms redone every 7 years, etc... surely they can afford a psychiatrist trained in counseling highly competitive individuals who've experienced a variety of unthinkable traumas.

Hell it doesn't even have to be a guy that's a menacing sociopath like AH, could be a guy who just can't achieve his full potential b/c he eats too much or a guy who keeps skipping class for who knows what reason.. Lot of folks have destructive tendencies that manifest themselves in relatively benign ways. Lot of folks come from abusive homes or have certain inner secrets that are slowly killing them from the inside.

...or you could just use Huntley Johnson to cover up your skeletons until the guy leaves town and makes new ones elsewhere.
 
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SoddyNole said:
Except for Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer and Dennis Raider.

Psch. Today article:

Social factors have some (even if only small) role to play in generating psychopathy. But after many years of investigating the minds of psychopaths, researchers have been unable to find any factors that could contribute to the development of psychopathic traits. Early childhood abuse or neglect often leads to posttraumatic stress disorder or phobias (e.g., in terms of making commitments). But anxiety disorders are typically associated with either greater connectivity between the amygdala and the vmPFC or a dysfunction of vmPFC that makes it unable to modulate negative information from the amygdala. We cannot exclude that childhood abuse or neglect may be a factor in making psychopaths commit crimes, but it's not a likely contributing factor to psychopathy itself. Furthermore, though serial killers like Charles Manson were abused and neglected as children, the list of serial killers with a normal childhood is long. Famous serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer and Dennis Rader grew up in healthy households with supportive family members.

I am not sure how a football coach, school or even someone in this field can point out a person in a crowd and say they will end up like AH. Was AH violent mean SOB on and off the field? Absolutely and so was many others he played football with.
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Ted Bundy lived in a home where he was neglected and his mother was beaten regularly by his grandfather. He lived in a single parent where his mother was also called his sister possibly because he was a product of incest or possibly because his grandfather was ashamed that his daughter had gotten pregnant without a stable marriage. Either way it was a single parent home filled with violence and neglect.

Jeffrey Dahmer was raped at 8 yo by a neighbor. And his parents were divorced with each filing suit claiming they had neglected their son.

Dennis Rader was not beaten at home and refused to admit he had been sexually abused, however he was neglected by a workaholic father and a mother who preferred enrolling him in Boy Scouts and a long list of church activities than actually bothering him. Despite his denials he was most likely raped at some point as a child as he became sexually aware at a very young age to the point only binding and killing animals allowed him to get off. Those are both signs of sexual trauma at a young age.

So I don’t know where you pulled that article from, but they did practically zero research. Both Dahmer and Bundy had textbook serial killer childhoods and Rader was likely lying (or blocking from his memory) about the lack of sexual abuse.
 
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Imtotallynottribe said:
So I don’t know where you pulled that article from, but they did practically zero research. Both Dahmer and Bundy had textbook serial killer childhoods and Rader was likely lying (or blocking from his memory) about the lack of sexual abuse.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/experts/berit-brogaard-dmsci-phd
Berit Brogaard D.M.Sci., Ph.D
Birgit-Brogaard.jpg

Berit Brogaard, D.M.Sci., Ph.D., is a Professor and the Director of the Brogaard Lab for Multisensory Research at the University of Miami. Her educational background includes a medical degree in neuroscience and a doctorate in philosophy. Her areas of research include perception, synesthesia, blindsight, consciousness, neuro-psychiatry and emotions. Brit has written over 100 peer-reviewed articles, some three hundred popular articles on neuroscience and health issues and three books: Transient Truths (Oxford), On Romantic Love (2015) and The Superhuman Mind (2015). She is currently finishing a third book with Oxford entitled Seeing and Saying. Her work has been featured in various public media, including Nightline, ABC News, the Huffington Post, Fox News, MSNBC, Daily Mail, Modesto Bee, and Mumbai Mirror. She is also an editor of the international peer-reviewed philosophy journal Erkenntnis, is the 100th President of the Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology and was the first female President of the Central States Philosophical Association.
 
SoddyNole said:
Berit Brogaard D.M.Sci., Ph.D
Birgit-Brogaard.jpg

Berit Brogaard, D.M.Sci., Ph.D., is a Professor and the Director of the Brogaard Lab for Multisensory Research at the University of Miami. Her educational background includes a medical degree in neuroscience and a doctorate in philosophy. Her areas of research include perception, synesthesia, blindsight, consciousness, neuro-psychiatry and emotions. Brit has written over 100 peer-reviewed articles, some three hundred popular articles on neuroscience and health issues and three books: Transient Truths (Oxford), On Romantic Love (2015) and The Superhuman Mind (2015). She is currently finishing a third book with Oxford entitled Seeing and Saying. Her work has been featured in various public media, including Nightline, ABC News, the Huffington Post, Fox News, MSNBC, Daily Mail, Modesto Bee, and Mumbai Mirror. She is also an editor of the international peer-reviewed philosophy journal Erkenntnis, is the 100th President of the Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology and was the first female President of the Central States Philosophical Association.
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Well she did a %*%* job as I pointed out. Especially referencing Dahmer as having a “normal childhood” when he was raped. And it took me five minutes at most to find facts proving her premise was wrong.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-08-11/news/mn-635_1_jeffrey-dahmer
 
So... we essentially have at least a couple of schools of thought here. One is that some people who are abused at an early age are so traumatized they can't help but become killers. Another school of thought is that early abuse might be a factor, but the vast majority of people who are abused never become killers. Then there's the school of thought that genetics are the major factor, with environment as a contributing factor. Did I miss anything?
 
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Finance85 said:
So... we essentially have at least a couple of schools of thought here. One is that some people who are abused at an early age are so traumatized they can't help but become killers. Another school of thought is that early abuse might be a factor, but the vast majority of people who are abused never become killers. Then there's the school of thought that genetics are the major factor, with environment as a contributing factor. Did I miss anything?
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Sounds about right. The only thing you’re forgetting is brain damage. A decent chunk have damage to the frontal lobe and hypothalamus either from disease or injury but I would consider these the outliers from the "normal" serial killer.

Obviously there are plenty of people who are abused as a kid who do not then become serial killers or abusers. But most if not all serial killers and abusers were.
 
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