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Are the militia a useless concept?

seminole97

Veteran Seminole Insider
Jun 14, 2005
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1) Even a quasi organized militia would last two seconds or however else long it would take the prez to send Ponch and/or some nuclear missiles to your house.


This got me wondering how the goat rapers on the other side of the world managed to last well over two seconds.

It seems to me that the invention and distribution of the AK pretty much ended naked colonialism. The costs simply became too great.

What are some of the 'success stories' of standing armies against well armed populations?
 
This got me wondering how the goat rapers on the other side of the world managed to last well over two seconds.

It seems to me that the invention and distribution of the AK pretty much ended naked colonialism. The costs simply became too great.

What are some of the 'success stories' of standing armies against well armed populations?

Militias work if the real armies get tired of or lack the political willpower to stop killing them en masse. That's what they're good for against modern armies. Show enough PR images of burned corpses and after a couple of years the modern country loses its willpower for continued slaughter. There's no Red Dawnesque victories, just modern PC societies tired of slaughter. If we were ever in the situation where our military was really rogue and we felt the full power of it, our Captain Minutemen would be rolled up overnight.
 
Bay of pigs didn't go real well

I guess I don't think of that as an 'armed populace' when the CIA sends in a few boatloads of guys to invade a country and overthrow their popular government.
 
Your cole slaw would strike fear into even the greatest of standing armies, I'm sure.

Cole Slaw Militia, FTW!

:)
 
If we were ever in the situation where our military was really rogue and we felt the full power of it, our Captain Minutemen would be rolled up overnight.

Do you think the Nazis failed to sufficiently repress armed populations in the Balkans because they weren't mean enough?
I'm not sure that the 'burning the village to save the village' approach works. How long does the 'rogue' military last when its actions cost it the support of the people?
 
This got me wondering how the goat rapers on the other side of the world managed to last well over two seconds.

It seems to me that the invention and distribution of the AK pretty much ended naked colonialism. The costs simply became too great.

What are some of the 'success stories' of standing armies against well armed populations?

The armies rarely win unless they kill everyone...
That is why there is a second amendment....and it burns some up but that is the reason that we do not have or should not have strict gun laws. It would be impossible to bring down a city like New York or Philadelphia if the citizen were armed and motivated against their captors....they would have to destroy every building every sewer every landmark in the city and kill off the citizens....it just would not happen....It would take a full standing army of at least 500,000 to control Phily... and at great peril to the occupiers.

Remember Rebels have the luxury to play nice except when they are attacking but the occupiers have to be on guard 24/7...it mentally plays into the resistance hands. Especially now that a lone gunman with a machine gun can kill wound several in a few minutes.
 
Do you think the Nazis failed to sufficiently repress armed populations in the Balkans because they weren't mean enough?
I'm not sure that the 'burning the village to save the village' approach works. How long does the 'rogue' military last when its actions cost it the support of the people?

1). We have FAR better weapons and intelligence than the Nazis ever dreamed of. I'm sure Ponch could turn on my iPhone and watch me sleep if he wanted to. 2) The Nazis were actively fighting on multiple fronts against modern armies, militias were an annoyance while dealing with them. 3) Russia lost millions and millions of civilians and military troops to the Nazis and there are only an estimated 14,000 rednecks with AKs in the US.

So yeah, the fantasy of an American rebellion knocking out our modern military or even slowing them down enough to care...is a delusion.
 
Iraq is the perfect example. A militia will do fine in an urban environment as long as the "support of the people" is a concern. Otherwise our military could flatten the town. In an open field our military will roll over any military that opposes it.
 
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We have FAR better weapons and intelligence than the Nazis ever dreamed of. I'm sure Ponch could turn on my iPhone and watch me sleep if he wanted to.

While the government certainly has people with the capability of remotely powering, hacking, and controlling your iPhone, believing that capabilities like that can and are distributed to front line forces is touch ludicrous. Perhaps I could interest you in the features of the lovely F-35...

there are only an estimated 14,000 rednecks with AKs in the US.

On the numbers:

A November 2012 Congressional Research Service report found that, as of 2009, there were approximately 310 million firearms in the United States: “114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns.” However, author William J. Krouse went on to note that “data are not available on the number of ‘assault weapons’ in private possession or available for sale, but one study estimated that 1.5 million assault weapons were privately owned in 1994.”

I would estimate a lot more than 1.5 million semi-automatic rifles have been sold since the ban lapsed over 10 years ago.

So yeah, the fantasy of an American rebellion knocking out our modern military or even slowing them down enough to care...is a delusion.

The modern American military failed to eradicate resistance in a population 1/10th the size of the U.S., in an area 1/12th the size of the CONUS.
I was asking for 'success stories' of standing armies against armed populations.
 
Comparing Mericuh's rednecks drunkenly shooting at beer cans on the weekends after their bass fishing trip and NASCAR watching with some hot dogs on the Barbie to the Afghan fighters who have been fighting against advanced military forces since 1979 and are trained by the very same CIA and special operators they are now fighting against is absurd. They're experienced at unconventional warfare including operating without a clear C&C from our decapitation strikes and on the fly explosive making and are hardened to the point of using children and women as weapons. Do you seriously think our Cheetos and Bud Light warriors even remotely compare to a CIA/Spec Ops trained UW fighter that will use his child as an explosive? That's like comparing apples to Spec Ops trained oranges with decades of experience that uses children as weapons.
 
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1). We have FAR better weapons and intelligence than the Nazis ever dreamed of. I'm sure Ponch could turn on my iPhone and watch me sleep if he wanted to. 2) The Nazis were actively fighting on multiple fronts against modern armies, militias were an annoyance while dealing with them. 3) Russia lost millions and millions of civilians and military troops to the Nazis and there are only an estimated 14,000 rednecks with AKs in the US.

So yeah, the fantasy of an American rebellion knocking out our modern military or even slowing them down enough to care...is a delusion.
No more delusional than the fantasy that our military is made up of mindless automatons that will blindly follow orders to annihilate our own citizens.

No one makes the claim that a militia could beat our military in a straight up fight. That is a straw man brought up, usually by those who wish to discount the second amendment. The truth of the matter is that if a revolution ever did happen again the military would be split as well. Sure there is the nuclear option, but that's not really an option in that scenario. There would be no benefit to leveling cities as that would destroy what those wishing to put down a rebellion want to save.

Our military doesn't just wipe out militias in third world countries with ease. I don't understand how anyone thinks it would just obliterate our own citizens.
 
Comparing Mericuh's rednecks drunkenly shooting at beer cans on the weekends after their bass fishing trip and NASCAR watching with some hot dogs on the Barbie to the Afghan fighters who have been fighting against advanced military forces since 1979 and are trained by the very same CIA and special operators they are now fighting against is absurd. They're experienced at unconventional warfare including operating without a clear C&C from our decapitation strikes and on the fly explosive making and are hardened to the point of using children and women as weapons. Do you seriously think our Cheetos and Bud Light warriors even remotely compare to a CIA/Spec Ops trained UW fighter that will use his child as an explosive? That's like comparing apples to Spec Ops trained oranges with decades of experience that uses children as weapons.
You are greatly misunderestamating redneck ingenuity. Show me an afghan that can shoot a pumpkin out of a homemade cannon over a mile without making mush out of it.
 
No more delusional than the fantasy that our military is made up of mindless automatons that will blindly follow orders to annihilate our own citizens.

No one makes the claim that a militia could beat our military in a straight up fight. That is a straw man brought up, usually by those who wish to discount the second amendment. The truth of the matter is that if a revolution ever did happen again the military would be split as well. Sure there is the nuclear option, but that's not really an option in that scenario. There would be no benefit to leveling cities as that would destroy what those wishing to put down a rebellion want to save.

Our military doesn't just wipe out militias in third world countries with ease. I don't understand how anyone thinks it would just obliterate our own citizens.

Give it another couple of years and our military will LITERALLY be made up of mindless automatons with push buttons in DC.
 
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The reason it works in other countries is because those people have reached a point where they have nothing to lose.

Give people something to lose, something at risk and you are a lot less likely to fight back.

People here are very comfortable. Even the angries here aren't that crazy or angry.



I find the irony here in those who, at the same time, are pro-military but fearful of the government to the point where they need to have weapons to rise against this faceless government enemy. Who exactly is the government going to use to enforce this occupation? Better believe the government is going to use the military. Ain't gonna be Joe Biden and Obama themselves.

If you have faith in our soldiers, do you really think they'd support something like that? That should say a lot about the fear of Nazi Germany Theory Part 2, like is so popular with the tin foil hat wearers on Facebook.
 
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Lol, that's the difference between our "militias" and the various Muslim "insurgents". Me with a couple of weekends of drunkenly shooting at beer cans versus Ponch lasts only as long as it takes


Give it another couple of years and our military will LITERALLY be made up of mindless automatons with push buttons in DC.
Designed by private contractors and driven and controlled by humans. There's stuff at Boeing, Lockheed and General Atomics with my fingerprints on it. With few exceptions military technology is born and developed from private sources. You can change the field, but in the end people are still involved and humans are not robots.
 
Comparing Mericuh's rednecks drunkenly shooting at beer cans on the weekends after their bass fishing trip and NASCAR watching with some hot dogs on the Barbie to the Afghan fighters who have been fighting against advanced military forces since 1979 and are trained by the very same CIA and special operators they are now fighting against is absurd. They're experienced at unconventional warfare including operating without a clear C&C from our decapitation strikes and on the fly explosive making and are hardened to the point of using children and women as weapons. Do you seriously think our Cheetos and Bud Light warriors even remotely compare to a CIA/Spec Ops trained UW fighter that will use his child as an explosive? That's like comparing apples to Spec Ops trained oranges with decades of experience that uses children as weapons.

Who claims that the militias don't consist of some equally trained US veterans?
 
The reason it works in other countries is because those people have reached a point where they have nothing to lose.

Give people something to lose, something at risk and you are a lot less likely to fight back.

People here are very comfortable. Even the angries here aren't that crazy or angry.



I find the irony here in those who, at the same time, are pro-military but fearful of the government to the point where they need to have weapons to rise against this faceless government enemy. Who exactly is the government going to use to enforce this occupation? Better believe the government is going to use the military. Ain't gonna be Joe Biden and Obama themselves.

If you have faith in our soldiers, do you really think they'd support something like that? That should say a lot about the fear of Nazi Germany Theory Part 2, like is so popular with the tin foil hat wearers on Facebook.
Obviously this is hypothetical. You hit on a valid point that most people are too comfortable to revolt. Also the government has one ultimate weapon that has grown even stronger. It is the fact that the overwhelming majority of humans are natural followers. They will not only blindly follow orders, but also do there best to get others to follow as well. With the advent of mass communication and social networks the world is rapidly becoming a huge Milgram experiment. Just look at the recent removal of the CFB near the Capitol in SC. After decades of it standing amidst debate it came down in under a month simply because of peer pressure.
 
Designed by private contractors and driven and controlled by humans. There's stuff at Boeing, Lockheed and General Atomics with my fingerprints on it. With few exceptions military technology is born and developed from private sources. You can change the field, but in the end people are still involved and humans are not robots.

I think you're underestimating the military's training and indoctrination. At the start of the Civil War, the US military only numbered about 16,000, was poorly trained, were mainly "Indian fighters" from the South which made up well more than half of the army and when the US invaded "their" soil during the Civil War only about 40% of the Southerners resigned and fought for the Confederacy (so about 4-5k out of the 16k). Now, we have a very loyal and well trained military. Even if half of the frontline crunchies resigned to fight for the militia, I'm sure 100% of the Spec Officers and pilots would stay loyal to the US.
Who claims that the militias don't consist of some equally trained US veterans?

Reservists and a handful of typical frontline crunchies I'm sure. CIA and Spec-Ops? I doubt it. LOL, well except for some stolen valor fake ones. I remember meeting my former secretary's boyfriend who claimed to have been a "ranger" who fought tigers in Vietnamese tunnels and was sent on assassination missions deep into enemy territory....Yeah. She bought it, I did not for an instant.
 

Nope. Read your actual history and not the handful of propaganda paragraphs said in school. We had almost little to nothing to do with it. We lost almost all of our setpiece battles. Our real, nonpropaganda victories only came about when the French sent masses of trained troops to the north and midAtlantic while Spain sent a fair amount to the deep south. I'll go pull up some stats and come back. But the fact that US militias once us our freedom is BS. France and Spain had far more to do with it.
 
I think you're underestimating the military's training and indoctrination. At the start of the Civil War, the US military only numbered about 16,000, was poorly trained, were mainly "Indian fighters" from the South which made up well more than half of the army and when the US invaded "their" soil during the Civil War only about 40% of the Southerners resigned and fought for the Confederacy (so about 4-5k out of the 16k). Now, we have a very loyal and well trained military. Even if half of the frontline crunchies resigned to fight for the militia, I'm sure 100% of the Spec Officers and pilots would stay loyal to the US.


Reservists and a handful of typical frontline crunchies I'm sure. CIA and Spec-Ops? I doubt it. LOL, well except for some stolen valor fake ones. I remember meeting my former secretary's boyfriend who claimed to have been a "ranger" who fought tigers in Vietnamese tunnels and was sent on assassination missions deep into enemy territory....Yeah. She bought it, I did not for an instant.
I'd say you have it exactly backwards. The traits that qualify those to be spec ops, pilots and high level officers are the same that make them less likely to be brainwashed.
 
I'd say you have it exactly backwards. The traits that qualify those to be spec ops, pilots and high level officers are the same that make them less likely to be brainwashed.

Like I said, during the leadup to the Civil War when most of the US troops were stationed in the South and were made up of Southerners, only a little over a third switched sides when the US was busy burning, raping and pillaging its way across the South. They would have had far less loyalty and indoctrination than our current military and were seeing, hearing and even participating in things that our military would balk at. So any US military reluctance or resignation would be WELL behind the third we experienced during the Civil War.
 
...on the fly explosive making...
I think you underestimate peoples' abilities to make improvised explosive devices.

I spent an entire 4th of July with some friends, a can of gunpowder, and a roll of waterproof fuse, making fireworks/bombs out of everything that we could find. We were blowing up all kinds of things that day - and leaving craters in the yard - just for fun.

Me and some friends were making small pipe bombs in the 9th or 10th grade by taking the gunpowder out of shotgun shells - the only reason we didn't really get in trouble is because we were smart enough not to cap the ends of the pipes, just used caulk.

Maybe you're not familiar with just how easy it is to blow stuff up.
 
I think you underestimate peoples' abilities to make improvised explosive devices.

I spent an entire 4th of July with some friends, a can of gunpowder, and a roll of waterproof fuse, making fireworks/bombs out of everything that we could find. We were blowing up all kinds of things that day - and leaving craters in the yard - just for fun.

Me and some friends were making small pipe bombs in the 9th or 10th grade by taking the gunpowder out of shotgun shells - the only reason we didn't really get in trouble is because we were smart enough not to cap the ends of the pipes, just used caulk.

Maybe you're not familiar with just how easy it is to blow stuff up.

Heh. Get ready for a knock on your door.
 
Like I said, during the leadup to the Civil War when most of the US troops were stationed in the South and were made up of Southerners, only a little over a third switched sides when the US was busy burning, raping and pillaging its way across the South. They would have had far less loyalty and indoctrination than our current military and were seeing, hearing and even participating in things that our military would balk at. So any US military reluctance or resignation would be WELL behind the third we experienced during the Civil War.
I'm not buying what your selling, but I don't feel like researching that much right now to properly refute it. I'm fairly confident that most soldiers in the civil war weren't soldiers immediately preceding it though. I do have the shining example of Robert E Lee on my side as well. We were just discussing him and his example lends itself to my argument that the really valuable human assets are the ones less likely to blindly follow orders.
 
Heh. Get ready for a knock on your door.
Yeah right? For that reason I won't go into much detail, but my son and I had a bet last night that I couldn't make a device to shoot his nerf dart 200 feet. Using an empty wine bottle and some items from the pantry and medicine cabinet, I won that bet. At least I'm pretty sure I did, as we have no idea where that dart is now.
 
Nope. Read your actual history and not the handful of propaganda paragraphs said in school. We had almost little to nothing to do with it. We lost almost all of our setpiece battles. Our real, nonpropaganda victories only came about when the French sent masses of trained troops to the north and midAtlantic while Spain sent a fair amount to the deep south. I'll go pull up some stats and come back. But the fact that US militias once us our freedom is BS. France and Spain had far more to do with it.

So, here ya go. Back with a few actual facts rather than my memory. While most people are at least vaguely aware that France had "a few" troops in the US thanks to Patriot (which gives way too much credence to the Americans at Yorktown it was basically all French), they are unaware that Spain had a large number of troops in the South and that one of the biggest battles in the Revolutionary War was in.....Pensacola Florida. Count Bernardo de Galvez led Spanish troops to take Baton Rouge, Natchez and Mobile and then settled down for a seige at Pensacola. 7,000 Spanish troops encircled about 4,000 British troops and after the fighting the Spanish basically lost 85 soldiers in exchange for killing over 200 and capturing about 1,500 British. That may not sound like a lot when you read about Civil War and WW2 battles, but the Battle of Bunker Hill was about 2,000 Americans versus 3,000 British and the British only had about 270 KIAs.

Meanwhile at Yorktown the "American" victory that was the pivotal battle of the Revolutionary War, although the combined allied forces were about 17,000, jus shy of 9,000 of that was French frontline troops while only about 3,000 American regulars were there (another 5,000 or so militia that were used primarily only to dig treches and only shot some ceremonial bullets).

The other famous American only victories were all small. When Washington famously sailed across the Delaware to attack drunken German mercenaries celebrating Christmas, he had about 2,500 troops and they captured about 900. Cowpens had 2000 Americans vs 1,150 British; Ticonderoga had about 250 Americans versus 80 British; Princeton was about 4,500 Americans versus 1,200 British; Vincennes was 200 Americans versus about 100 British; Springfield was about 1,500 Americans versus 5,000 British; Lexington had 80 Americans versus 400 British and Concord had 4,000 Americans versus about 1,500 British. The rest were all losses excluding some even more minor raids.

All of the other major battles were British victories (like in the biggest battle of the war at Long Island).
Only Saratoga was an American only (with French advisors) victory that was bigger than the battle of Pensacola as there about 15,000 Americans versus 6,600 British.

So the biggest "American" victory in the Revolutionary War was mainly French. The second biggest WAS actually American. And the third biggest was Spanish with little to no American involvement. There wasn't even a close fourth in terms of battle size that "America" didn't lose.
 
Yeah right? For that reason I won't go into much detail, but my son and I had a bet last night that I couldn't make a device to shoot his nerf dart 200 feet. Using an empty wine bottle and some items from the pantry and medicine cabinet, I won that bet. At least I'm pretty sure I did, as we have no idea where that dart is now.
Not buying what I'm selling? It's easily researchable facts. Prior to the commencement of the Civil War the US had a standing regular military of 16k mostly made up of Southerners. Only a little more than a third sided with the South which was about 40% of the Southerners. Yes, most of the battles in the CW were draftees and militias on both sides that had no prior training.
 
Not buying what I'm selling? It's easily researchable facts. Prior to the commencement of the Civil War the US had a standing regular military of 16k mostly made up of Southerners. Only a little more than a third sided with the South which was about 40% of the Southerners. Yes, most of the battles in the CW were draftees and militias on both sides that had no prior training.
Ok, I just said I don't feel like researching right now. I'll get to it sometime maybe. Nothing against you, I just am at the point that I don't buy anyone's stories about the civil war without checking it out myself.
 
What in the friggin hell is going on in this thread, lol. The only "militias" we have are the crazy fat slobs who trip over themselves in a basic formation and get riled up on the internet. And to think that our govt would actually turn against it's own citizens, jeezus guys. You do realize that our military is made from just good old fashioned Americans that like to drink beer, play video games, fart on each other, watch college football, eat cheetos and lick their fingers, jack off to internet porn, grab a big mac and nuggets, listen to cheesy music, have good friends and family, and have strong ties and loyalty to their local community. Where is this oppressive govt going to come from? Certainly not us!
 
What in the friggin hell is going on in this thread, lol. The only "militias" we have are the crazy fat slobs who trip over themselves in a basic formation and get riled up on the internet. And to think that our govt would actually turn against it's own citizens, jeezus guys. You do realize that our military is made from just good old fashioned Americans that like to drink beer, play video games, fart on each other, watch college football, eat cheetos and lick their fingers, jack off to internet porn, grab a big mac and nuggets, listen to cheesy music, have good friends and family, and have strong ties and loyalty to their local community. Where is this oppressive govt going to come from? Certainly not us!

Or so the aliens would have us believe.....
 
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Actually Poop, that's exactly what I was saying. Our fat, lazy drunken "militias" would stand no shot against the American military if they came for it. And they're not coming for it. But....if for some reason they DO come for it, don't expect me to join it. I'll be on the next WOW plane to Paris or Berlin or Copenhagen or Iceland. Maybe stay there for awhile and then move to New Zealand while the rest of you Americans are turned into flashlight batteries. ;)
 
What in the friggin hell is going on in this thread, lol. The only "militias" we have are the crazy fat slobs who trip over themselves in a basic formation and get riled up on the internet. And to think that our govt would actually turn against it's own citizens, jeezus guys. You do realize that our military is made from just good old fashioned Americans that like to drink beer, play video games, fart on each other, watch college football, eat cheetos and lick their fingers, jack off to internet porn, grab a big mac and nuggets, listen to cheesy music, have good friends and family, and have strong ties and loyalty to their local community. Where is this oppressive govt going to come from? Certainly not us!

Agreed. You could argue that we already have an oppressive government in some respects, or are on the way, but it certainly didn't come by military force. And the answer is certainly not to stockpile weapons to someday overthrow the government.
 
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Tribe, I guess you missed my point. The same people that will make up a militia are the same people that are supposedly going to invade.

And to add to that, the only reason why "militias" in recent history have somewhat succeeded are due to isolated communities in tough geographical terrains with money and weapons funneled in from the outside.
 
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