I don't believe that at all. However, my beliefs do not change the fact that if you resist a cop, you are more likely to get hurt. In many situations, I would resist a cop. But I understand that also increases my risks.
Cop Kills a Man...w/ Video
- Thread starter DanC78
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I heard the audio, and watched the video. I thought his attitude was exemplary, up until the time he shot him. It was bizarre.
I've never cared much for the fact that everyone now has a camera in their pocket and can record all sorts of inane crap, but man am I thankful that we can now record cops doing crazy crap to people (as they've been doing for decades with no recourse) and put them online to hold them accountable.
Without cell phones / dashcams, cops would continue getting away with abusing / murdering civilians.
It's baffling to me that a cop wearing a body camera can be so absurd and then have the balls to lie about it when he KNOWS the video contradicts what he said. Like is he really THAT stupid? Are we really giving badges to people with that low of an intelligence level?!
Without cell phones / dashcams, cops would continue getting away with abusing / murdering civilians.
It's baffling to me that a cop wearing a body camera can be so absurd and then have the balls to lie about it when he KNOWS the video contradicts what he said. Like is he really THAT stupid? Are we really giving badges to people with that low of an intelligence level?!
The article you linked discusses a claim that prison sentences for black men are 15%-20% longer than for white men. It does NOT claim they are sentenced more frequently, nor does it claim they are arrested more frequently, for the same crimes. In addition, the article says the study is inconclusive, because it is difficult to compare "other legitimate considerations" that judges weigh in the process of sentencing. This article does not prove your position at all.
The big racial disparity, of course, is that blacks commit far more crimes, per capita. That's why they are over-represented in the prison population. And most black victims of crime are victimized by other blacks. Society needs to be discussing the causes and solutions for that problem, much more than the "racism" of the criminal justice system.
Well, everyone's got an opinion.
And yours is wroooonnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggg. Cop was condescending and confrontational all along.
Just outright wrong.
Using marijuana as an example:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/
It's impossible to claim they're not unfairly targeted by biased cops (black and white cops)
I'm sorry but I can't argue with someone who's so backwards as to think the way you do. I'm done with you - we'll never agree.
This!
My first thought of an analogy was the Tom Brady situation. If you destroy the evidence that can prove guilt or innocent, people are going to assume it was going to show you were guilty. Not hard to understand.
If you want to avoid your chance of being shot, do as the cop ask. Especially a simple request like remove your seat belt and step out of the car.
But like Bucky just noted, this cop has committed a possible crime and needs to have a jury decide his innocnet.
And the more I think about it, the more I believe the DA needs to go for manslaughter. There is a good chance this guy will get off of the murder charge. If I'm interpreting the difference of murder and manslaughter correctly that is.
How many times have we seen a guilty party (the Durst guy comes to mind) get off all together because the DA is swinging for the fences.
Just my 2 cents
I think there's people in the locker room who don't realize just how bad things are and how bad some people are. These cops aren't dealing with FSU grads, and they know that. That in no way excuses the murders.
I should have said, "citizens" are murdering people at a much greater rate than cops. I was calling them "criminals" because, obviously, murdering people is a crime. Sloppy writing on my part.
Typical liberal argument. Anyone who disagrees with you is too "backward" to talk to. How does it feel living in the echo chamber of people who agree with you? "Hello, hello, hello, ello, lo."
C'mon. Argue the facts. Don't name call. Don't insult. I don't hate you, or think you're an idiot. I just think you're wrong.
For example, the link you posted, above, DOES support your argument, at least with marijuana arrests. It's especially interesting that the greatest disparities in arrests are in urban, heavily black areas, like Chicago. It does NOT prove that they are "unfairly targeted," but it DOES prove there appears to be SOMETHING in the process that seems to produce an unjust result. That's important.
I don't mind admitting when other people have good arguments. See, I don't want to PROVE I'm right. I want to actually BE right. A good way to do that is to talk to people who disagree.
By the way, I believe the number of abusive police officers is WAY, WAY under-reported. That doesn't necessarily mean they are racist, but there is no reason for abuse, which we've seen too much of. I think body cameras are a GREAT idea. They protect everybody, both cop and citizen.
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There are more than enough studies that show how blacks and Hispanics receive harsher sentences than whites with comparable felonies and comparable criminal histories. I don't usually throw my credentials around, but after your "liberal argument" comment, I should add that I read much of this literature while getting my PhD in Criminology. Actually, since black crime, and all crime, has been dropping since 1994, this prison disparity due to bias could be getting worse.
I find misleading infographics uniquely bad.
Yes, the first graphic, if shown alone, is deliberately misleading. The 2nd graphic accurately depicts the problem. The black "death by homicide" rate is frighteningly large, AND, over 94% of the killing of blacks is done by other blacks. Obviously, that's not a problem of "racism," at least not directly. But it's a huge problem that must be addressed, regardless of who the killers are.
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My "liberal argument" comment was well-explained, I thought. Considering someone "backward" because they don't agree with you is a classic modern liberal argument. My comment had nothing to do with his opinion on the facts and his opinion on of the facts.
Since you have done the reading, what is your opinion on WHY there is a disparity? And in your opinion, what is the solution?
I would say that it isn't one issue creating the sentencing disparity. Political forces (that can also be racially influenced if your constituency is majority white), underlying prejudice within individual courtroom actors (juries included), having the income to hire a lawyer, whether they are unemployed and live in a context of high unemployment...obviously the economic issues are correlated with race. How to fix it? Pay public defenders better...maybe greater oversight of the courtroom by outside government entities. Obviously there are larger issues before this point, but I'm really only talking about the courtroom right now.
Also, I usually only lurk here and once key words like "liberal" or "conservative" argument are thrown around, I worry that the person saying them will not be willing to look at certain facts that support either argument, and consider the person a potential lost cause. I apologize for jumping to that conclusion with you.
As I said in the Sandra Bland thread, it's hilarious watching you "Don't tread on me! Question the corrupt government!" conservatives all of a sudden demand complete subservience and acquiescence toward government agents when it's something involving non-whites.
People that defended Cliven Bundy and his makeshift militia saying someone deserves to be shot in the head for not opening their car door fast enough on a license plate traffic stop. Just hilariously absurd hypocrisy.
People that defended Cliven Bundy and his makeshift militia saying someone deserves to be shot in the head for not opening their car door fast enough on a license plate traffic stop. Just hilariously absurd hypocrisy.
I know, I hesitated to even say good cop because I expected a response like this from you. Since you seem to have it in for cops. I guess they arent humans and have to all be saints. To be far, we dont hear the cops conversation and we dont know what the follow up was. The "good cop" may have told the other cop to leave and may have reported him afterward. He did tell the kid he can formally appeal the citation if the cop writes him one. He explained the situation and told him he was free to go and was polite about it.
Some folks simply don't need a gun and badge . Instead , they misinterpret what it mean to actually serve and protect, but uses they're position to bully the weak. I'm so glad I survived the streets and was able to get out. I worry about the good officers in this line of work.
I don't "have it in for cops." The good cop was polite but certainly didn't perform his job up to the expectations of protecting and serving.
To the contrary, I am very glad we have a robust law enforcement system, however I'm disappointed that all too often we see (on video) them disrespecting and abusing civilians, and rarely if ever do we see any cops policing their own.
Why there is little to no self-policing within the ranks is baffling to me. If they would weed out the bad seeds among them they and we would be better off for it. Straight up baffling - if the police can't police their own, how can they be trusted to police us? -- I have no other words for this.
Our justice system has a lot of flaws, and I don't know where you start in terms of fixing them, I would hope it's an initiative or at least conversation we see our current administration start before leaving office.
Federal funds are used by agencies at the state and local levels and can be used to force the implementation of new technologies, training, or more reporting related to individual officer level accountability. I think we need to pay our officers better in order to attract a better and more competitive talent pool. Reduce the influence of officers unions that allow for bad cops to stay employed. Spend more on independent internal affairs reviews. Enhance, more frequent and in-depth psych screenings need to be performed on officers, both before starting and while they're serving -- their jobs can be traumatic and jading, and those realities need to be accounted -- an officers sanity protects not only him/herself but also the rest of us. Prevent funds from citations, tickets, fines from funding law enforcement departments - eliminating the need for quotas or frivolous traffic stops. Actively ban any sort of profiling, neighborhood based stop-and-frisk. Require officers to walk their neighborhoods, get to know the folks they are protecting - no more siting in cars or behind closed doors, separated from civilians.
I'd mandate more detailed reporting and accountability from DAs, breaking down indictments, cases taken to trial vs pleas and diversion, and then requested sentences - and similarly looking at judges and juries to report publicly on verdicts and sentences. Encourage appeals courts to examine sentences more closely.
Our corrections system is fundamentally flawed, they combination physical/psychological torture dungeons and training grounds for turning small time offenders into violent criminals. They're doing everything but "corrections". You have to take the private companies out of it - their financial interests are 180degrees from those of truly reforming criminals.
Overhaul sentencing guidelines that put us in this massive hole, we are 3% of the worlds population, one of the safest countries on the planet, and home to 25% of the world's prison population. In what universe does this make sense? We treat our law enforcement, courts and prisons like an assembly line, not checking for quality anywhere along the way - and in doing so are destroying little pockets all over America.
I could go on...
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/07/29/publish/30830777/
Near the bottom is a 3 minute Vid of his arraignment. Is anything notable said? (I'm still w/o volume waiting for the main computer to get fixed )
Near the bottom is a 3 minute Vid of his arraignment. Is anything notable said? (I'm still w/o volume waiting for the main computer to get fixed )
That's terrible.
Some of these cops are terrified and shouldn't be out there.
Some of these cops are terrified and shouldn't be out there.
How does Dubose sound? Does he seem intoxicated or under the influence of anything?
I could see the gin bottle but it looked unopened.
I didn't bother responding to that because normally you don't respond, but if you're going to repeat this it's worth addressing.
You're conflating distinct concepts. Preferring a limited government doesn't mean embracing martyrdom at the first or next interaction with the organs of law enforcement.
On the side of the road while under arrest is a poor place to try and advance concepts of liberty.
A libertarian recognizes, as Mises explained, “Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, of gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom."
The instrument of government compulsion, the cop with the trigger finger at the end of the long arm of the law, isn't the one you debate the finer points of the Constitution with. Do you really fail to grasp this?
I'd ask you to quote who said anyone 'deserves to be shot in the head for not opening their car door', but we both know that's just a strawman.
I do think a reasonable person would acknowledge that physically struggling (particularly trying to flee an arrest) with a police officer greatly increases your chances of being shot, which has nothing to do with "deserving" to be shot.
I think an intelligent adult should be able to recognize the distinction, and shouldn't seek to blur it.
If, on the other hand, you just wanted to poop in the punch bowl - have fun...
I think you are too glib on your dismissing of this double standard. It certainly does not apply to all small non intrusive government types. But, without a doubt, there is certainly a subsect of folks out there that support the armed and threatening anti govt actions of the Clive Bundy's / David Koresh 's of the US yet who also are the first to jump to the defense of all law enforcement killings of black people with the "well he should not have argued / resisted arrest / run". That is a double standard. I also think your concept that on the side of the road while under arrest is a poor place to try and advance concepts of liberty lest you embrace martyrdom is terrifying. Should we not expect way better from our government? Should we while being detained and searched (in many cases illegally) be able to argue and even become angry without being shot in the face?
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There's some truth to what noleclone says, it's almost as if to heroically fight an oppressive gov't one must assemble a weapons cache and militia. Fighting unlawful tactics solo, without weapons, yields a "you should have just listened to the cop," type response from some.
So with that double standard acknowledged, is the implicit lesson from these far right wing actors that blacks seeking to stand up for their rights ought to do so in the spirit of Koresh or Cliven Bundy and arm themselves / form a mini militia?
I should hope we can make change within our government and judicial system through peaceful means and resistance - there ought to be no need to go the loco route of Cliven or David Koresh.
Why is objecting to mistreatment by government agents on the side of the road the wrong time and place but objecting to it on a Nevada ranch suddenly ok? You guys going crazy over bean counting bureaucrats at the IRS is defending liberty but objecting to being unfairly accosted by ARMED GOVERNMENT AGENTS isn't an important Constitutional debate? HUH?!?!? Explain the logic.
No, it's not a strawman. If your defense of this shooting is "he should've let the officer open the door and pull him out" that's exactly what you're doing. Oh and adding the "physically struggling" claim is BS because that's not what happened. He did not physically struggle with the officer. You know that incident is on TAPE right? We can see what happened. Why make up facts?
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I think you hit the nail on the head. They have a job that requires nerves of steel and some of these instances show people who are just not cut out for the job. I sure as heck would not want to do their job.
For me in instances where there was really no physical resistance , no weapons involved, or a person is simply fleeing, the whole "well if he had just listened and complied and not done that he would have lived" argument (also used in defenses of South Carolina Cop who shot guy in back and Oklahoma play cop who shot guy being cuffed) is akin to the folks who say "well she should not have dressed that way" about a women who got sexually assaulted. It is a deflector of the true bad actor.
Exactly.
And I wouldn't want their job either. My 4 year old gives me $&(@&...clearly I'm not intimidating enough to handle a couple ex-cons on the side of the road at 2AM.
It became an unappealing job when officers (through their own actions and department policies) began being seen as the adversary. That combined with subpar pay resulted in an intellectually subpar police force that's not mentally equipped to handle tense situations.
They've done very little to make this job easier on themselves. Rarely walk their beat and get to know folks, they don't self-police, they've militarized themselves to look like an invading army, and they are constantly seen in the streets and on the news abusing their power. They've engendered so much ill-will that now it takes someone kind of crazy to become a cop - which just makes the existing problem of bad cops even worse because now you're adding crazy ones to the mix.
Don't disagree, but you can't be a complete softie either.
I think Dalton had it right. "You be nice...until it's tim to not be nice." Genius, that one.
I wonder if ALL the videos for police car/body cams were shown, what percentage would be bad cops vs. cops doing the right thing? Of course, only the bad cop ones make the news. The others aren't a story.
The billion+ peaceful Muslims on earth don't make the news. The 100 million hard-working, law-abiding blacks in America don't make the news. Politicians not getting caught sexually harassing someone or accepting bribes don't make the news. FSU players who aren't using profanity or allegedly stealing ketchup cup sized portions of soda don't make the news.
This isn't some double standard that's unique to cops. The only difference is when a cop does something bad, usually someone winds up hurt or dead - the consequence of bad policing is fatal.
