Cop Kills a Man...w/ Video

[seminole97]

Why is objecting to mistreatment by government agents on the side of the road the wrong time and place but objecting to it on a Nevada ranch suddenly ok? You guys going crazy over bean counting bureaucrats at the IRS is defending liberty but objecting to being unfairly accosted by ARMED GOVERNMENT AGENTS isn't an important Constitutional debate? HUH?!?!? Explain the logic.

Please reread my endorsement of the Clive Bundy protesters - oh, wait. I never actually offered one.
Please point out where I said that 'objecting to being unfairly accosted by ARMED GOVERNMENT AGENTS isn't an important Constitutional debate' - oh, wait. that's a strawman too, because I never said it isn't an important debate, I said that on the side of the road with the tool holding a gun isn't where you try and hold/win that debate. Is that distinction lost on you?
Is there a video somewhere where a cop goes, "Oh, I forgot all about the fact you have rights, citizen. I'm glad you raised these important points and enlightened me here on the side of the road. Now please, let me hold you up no further, and be on your way..."?

No, it's not a strawman. If your defense of this shooting is "he should've let the officer open the door and pull him out" that's exactly what you're doing. Oh and adding the "physically struggling" claim is BS because that's not what happened. He did not physically struggle with the officer. You know that incident is on TAPE right? We can see what happened. Why make up facts?

Did he use telekinesis to shut the door when the cop tried to open it?
Cop tries to open the door after ordering you out of the car and you shut the door that is physically resisting.
Also, please try to understand that an explanation of how something happened is not a 'defense' of what happened. That's the same mistake as saying someone was justified by explaining their motive. Different concepts.
Can you not envision how that entire scene transpires differently if the deceased simply stepped out of the car when asked? Now he's dead, and for what? Was he trying to avoid going to jail for driving without license or something else silly?

There were 260–325 police pursuits ending in a fatality annually in the United States for a total of 2654 crashes involving 3965 vehicles and 3146 fatalities during the nine year study period. Of the 3146 fatalities, 1088 deaths were of people not in the fleeing vehicle and 2055 to people in the fleeing vehicle

If you try to flee a police officer in your car I hope he shoots you in the head before you run over my wife.
No joke.

 

[Spearchucker87]

It became an unappealing job when officers (through their own actions and department policies) began being seen as the adversary. .........They've done very little to make this job easier on themselves.

Bad cops is not what would deter me from doing the job, but rather seeing a cop get wrongfully villified in a rush to misjudgement like officer Darren Wilson was in the Michael Brown shooting. To this day you still have activists and even NAACP officials lumping every single one of these high profile cases together as if every black shooting victim was unwarranted. A member of their leadership just yesterday tried to lump in the Mike Brown shooting with this Dubose case on NPR, as if they were even remotely similar. They also lump in completely different circumstances like the Trayvon Martin incident, something unrelated to legit police work. When you see it looking like communities are never going to support you even in a justified shooting, it doesn't make it at all appealing to take the job of protecting them.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Bad cops is not what would deter me from doing the job, but rather seeing a cop get wrongfully villified in a rush to misjudgement like officer Darren Wilson was in the Michael Brown shooting. To this day you still have activists and even NAACP officials lumping every single one of these high profile cases together as if every black shooting victim was unwarranted. A member of their leadership just yesterday tried to lump in the Mike Brown shooting with this Dubose case on NPR, as if they were even remotely similar. They also lump in completely different circumstances like the Trayvon Martin incident, something unrelated to legit police work. When you see it looking like communities are never going to support you even in a justified shooting, it doesn't make it at all appealing to take the job of protecting them.

I think the point they maybe making (and I don't know because I didn't hear the interview you reference) is that in most if not all of these scenarios the officers had other, non-lethal, options available to them to de-escalate situations but chose to kill.

They may have been found legally within their rights to do so, but the fact that all too often that option is chosen when others exist is what many find disturbing.

 

[seminole97]

another roadside lawyer tries to hold court from their car:



Bonus points for referencing the Articles of Confederation.

 

[More Kirk Less Spock]

Exactly.
And I wouldn't want their job either. My 4 year old gives me $&(@&...clearly I'm not intimidating enough to handle a couple ex-cons on the side of the road at 2AM.

4 year old / made me laugh.

 

[buckeyenole]

I won't speak to the validity of the data:

Not sure how this "debunks" anything.

1. I addressed this already. No one says "black on black" is "uniquely bad." The point of the statistic is that blacks are not being victimized by whites, but by other blacks.

2. It is well known that violent crime is falling, because more of the violent people are in prison. One would hope that would happen.

3. Although #3 looks bad, there is not enough information in the graphic to agree with it, dispute it, or know how concerned to be about it, because it only identifies "drug users." It makes a big difference whether or not they are surveying marijuana use, prescription pills like adderal/ritalin, or heroin or cocaine.

4. Similar to #3. Not enough info in the graphic. The claim is that discipline is more harsh for the same offense, but we don't know how the offenses are categorized or what they are. There is also no breakdown between urban, suburban, and rural districts, which makes a big difference.

5. False equivalency. No one says "most black youth commit crimes." They say, "crime is prevalent in the black community." So the "Myth/Reality" comparison is a false comparison. Also, why do we even think YOUTHS are responsible for most of the crime in any neighborhood? Couldn't crime be extremely prevalent in any community, despite small numbers of "youth criminals?" Finally, they show crime statistics for black youths, but where are the statistics for white youths, so one can compare?

Lesson: beware of "activist graphics."

 

[crooked_rain]

It became an unappealing job when officers (through their own actions and department policies) began being seen as the adversary. That combined with subpar pay resulted in an intellectually subpar police force that's not mentally equipped to handle tense situations.

They've done very little to make this job easier on themselves. Rarely walk their beat and get to know folks, they don't self-police, they've militarized themselves to look like an invading army, and they are constantly seen in the streets and on the news abusing their power. They've engendered so much ill-will that now it takes someone kind of crazy to become a cop - which just makes the existing problem of bad cops even worse because now you're adding crazy ones to the mix.

http://gawker.com/other-officers-at-scene-wont-be-charged-for-lies-in-sam-1721385098

We continue just imagining the blue wall of silence....

 

[buckeyenole]

Because I've seen this graphic from the FBI before:

Good, clean info. But I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[buckeyenole]

The billion+ peaceful Muslims on earth don't make the news. The 100 million hard-working, law-abiding blacks in America don't make the news. Politicians not getting caught sexually harassing someone or accepting bribes don't make the news. FSU players who aren't using profanity or allegedly stealing ketchup cup sized portions of soda don't make the news.

This isn't some double standard that's unique to cops. The only difference is when a cop does something bad, usually someone winds up hurt or dead - the consequence of bad policing is fatal.

I agree with your point, but I think there are closer to 39 million blacks, counting men, women and children. There would be a lot more, but about 40% of all black pregnancies end in abortion. Abortion is the #1 killer of blacks, and it's not even close - 1,875 every day. If "black lives matter," someone should do something about that.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Don't think this thread has anything to do w/ abortion. Let's not derail it.

http://gawker.com/other-officers-at-scene-wont-be-charged-for-lies-in-sam-1721385098

We continue just imagining the blue wall of silence....

Absurd, guys openly lie and nothing is done. Really it's no wonder people don't trust cops.
I would hope the PD would have the integrity to fire these guys.

 

[buckeyenole]

Don't think this thread has anything to do w/ abortion. Let's not derail it.

Absurd, guys openly lie and nothing is done. Really it's no wonder people don't trust cops.
I would hope the PD would have the integrity to fire these guys.

True, the thread is not about abortion. Thought I'd toss some perspective in as a free bonus. The cop, and others like him, are a major problem, and must be addressed. At the same time, there are far worse things going on every day which are being largely ignored.

 

[TC Nole OX]

Absurd, guys openly lie and nothing is done. Really it's no wonder people don't trust cops.
I would hope the PD would have the integrity to fire these guys.

They will stay on the job and receive a medal. bau

 

[Gonolz]

They will stay on the job and receive a medal. bau

Blue before True

 

[speechteach]

2. It is well known that violent crime is falling, because more of the violent people are in prison. One would hope that would happen.

Prison, at most, has accounted for 20% of the drop in crime. Some studies have argued that it could be as little as five percent. And it is diminishing returns...once the worst are locked up (those that would commit the most offenses), each additional brings in fewer crimes prevented.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

True, the thread is not about abortion. Thought I'd toss some perspective in as a free bonus. The cop, and others like him, are a major problem, and must be addressed. At the same time, there are far worse things going on every day which are being largely ignored.

Perhaps but this thread isn't about those things.
No point minimizing or derailing th major issue being discussed here.

 

[seminole97]

Prison, at most, has accounted for 20% of the drop in crime. Some studies have argued that it could be as little as five percent.

That's interesting, given the timing of the decline and the explosion of the prison population.

They certainly can't attribute it to youth employment, I wonder what the major cause is.

And it is diminishing returns...once the worst are locked up (those that would commit the most offenses), each additional brings in fewer crimes prevented.

What doesn't have diminishing returns? Even the next scoop of ice cream isn't immune to that.
If inmate A would have committed 10 crimes, inmate B 5 crimes, and inmate C 3 crimes, that isn't an argument to leave inmate C on the loose.
Better question is whether or not inmate B committed 5 burglaries and inmate A got picked up slinging weed in the Suwanee Swiftee parking lot a dozen times.

 

[goldmom]

If white cops are so freakin scared of black people, maybe they should stop pulling them over for BS reasons....

Too bad the Memphis cop didn't know this.

 

[speechteach]

That's interesting, given the timing of the decline and the explosion of the prison population.

They certainly can't attribute it to youth employment, I wonder what the major cause is.



What doesn't have diminishing returns? Even the next scoop of ice cream isn't immune to that.
If inmate A would have committed 10 crimes, inmate B 5 crimes, and inmate C 3 crimes, that isn't an argument to leave inmate C on the loose.
Better question is whether or not inmate B committed 5 burglaries and inmate A got picked up slinging weed in the Suwanee Swiftee parking lot a dozen times.

A chart doesn't control for the countless other variables out there. For instance, the new cohorts of children coming into their crime prone years that are not committing as much crime, or the adults that leave prison and are not committing additional crimes, or the fact that so many currently imprisoned have aged out of their crime prone years and wouldn't be committing crime anyway.

Regarding your question, community supervision and diversion programs are much better ways to handle the potential inmates you are talking about. All I'm saying is whatever effect imprisonment had is probably getting weaker every year.

 

[buckeyenole]

If we're going to have a serious conversation about crime, we have to include the "fatherless problem" and inadequate family formation. This, by far, is the single greatest predictor of both poverty and crime. This is the cohort that counts.

We have watched the largest social experiment in human history - "What happens when 75% of a population grows up without a father?" We now know the answer, but almost no one wants to talk about it. In some communities, the fatherless rate is 80-90%. Instead, we talk about "racism" and an "unfair criminal justice system."

 

[ReliableOstrich]

If we're going to have a serious conversation about crime, we have to include the "fatherless problem" and inadequate family formation. This, by far, is the single greatest predictor of both poverty and crime. This is the cohort that counts.

We have watched the largest social experiment in human history - "What happens when 75% of a population grows up without a father?" We now know the answer, but almost no one wants to talk about it. In some communities, the fatherless rate is 80-90%. Instead, we talk about "racism" and an "unfair criminal justice system."

This thread isn't so much about crime (or more accurately long tail causes of crime) as it is cops abusing their power / killing of unarmed civilians.
If you want to start a separate thread about causes of criminal activity, I'd be happy to participate in it.

Your last few posts appear to minimize this bad cop problem or change the subject as an attempt to deflect attention or blame -- not saying that's your intention. I'm clearly motivated to keep the focus in this thread on bad cops and how to fix that problem.

 

[NoleandDawg]

No intent to kill there which defines murder 1. Maybe Murder 2 but the fact that the cop was falling backwards from a moving car when the shot is discharged tells me Manslaughter at best.

 

[DanC78]

No intent to kill there which defines murder 1. Maybe Murder 2 but the fact that the cop was falling backwards from a moving car when the shot is discharged tells me Manslaughter at best.

Do you think he will get off?

 

[rjox1225]

I just have to ask this question. If a cop tells you to take your seatbelt off and step outta the vehicle, why do you shut the door and try to drive away? The cop should've never fired his weapon. But, good grief. The guy would probably be alive today if he complied with the officer. I'm actually getting sick and tired of citizens not listening. the guy couldn't produce a license and he had an open container. @ laws broken right there.

 

[NoleandDawg]

Do you think he will get off?

Self defense is subjective i.e. what was in the mind of the cop. This isn't really a classic self defense case since I cannot tell for certain but do not believe the cop intended to discharge his gun. This is more like the cop had his gun out because he wasn't sure what the driver was going to do and when the driver pulled away it appears the cop was falling backward when he discharged the weapon. It seems to me this could go to ways. The cop could say that he was concerned he would be run over and discharged his weapon in self defense. If that's the case then you would need the jury to determine whether that belief was justified and it is the prosecutor's job to prove it wasn't self defense.

The other possible way is to say it was an accidental discharge based on him being knocked off balance. This might support a manslaughter action but who knows how the facts are going to come out. It is not a clear cut murder case since I see no way to prove he intended to shoot the driver.

 

[Spearchucker87]

Self defense is subjective i.e. what was in the mind of the cop. This isn't really a classic self defense case since I cannot tell for certain but do not believe the cop intended to discharge his gun. This is more like the cop had his gun out because he wasn't sure what the driver was going to do and when the driver pulled away it appears the cop was falling backward when he discharged the weapon. It seems to me this could go to ways. The cop could say that he was concerned he would be run over and discharged his weapon in self defense. If that's the case then you would need the jury to determine whether that belief was justified and it is the prosecutor's job to prove it wasn't self defense.

The other possible way is to say it was an accidental discharge based on him being knocked off balance. This might support a manslaughter action but who knows how the facts are going to come out. It is not a clear cut murder case since I see no way to prove he intended to shoot the driver.

Most likely the cop was not a psychcopath. I doubt he had on his mind to murder somebody that day. Why he reacted the way he did is the crazy question. He told the "wrong lie" to minimize his charges though. Dragged by the car??? He really was stressed out and trying to make up something on the fly. All he had to say was he thought he saw the guy going for a weapon and he gets manslaughter at worst, maybe even aquitted (I'm not saying that's 'good' or right, I just think that's the way it is). Now his lie will most likely be used against him as feeling culpability of guilt (and it almost certainly Was him realizing he'd F'd up), and he might get murder 2.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I think the cop, in addition to being guilty of murder, is guilty of policing in fear.
It's the same fear that seems to have made so many cops trigger happy. Most are likely not racists, in the traditional definition of the word, but are operating on subconscious (or sometimes conscious) biases of certain races and appearances that triggers the irrational type of fear causing so many unnecessary abuses and murders.

Cops need to spend more time interacting with their neighborhoods, walking the streets, shaking hands and helping old folks with their groceries. You can't combat your fears or biases without confronting them like a man. You don't shed biases by sitting locked in your car, waiting for someone to slip up.

A bad cop isn't always a bad person.