Europe's migrant crisis

[GwinnettNole]

I thought the US was the only one with this problem? Seriously, I've heard that Europe is being overloaded with migrants as well... what is the answer?

http://news.yahoo.com/europes-migrant-crisis-key-questions-165210871.html#

You can't help but understand why they want to leave but is it the new countries responsibility to host these new migrants-- which obviously puts a massive strain on the countries resources. (lets leave voting rights out of this please-- as in allowing people to come to a country for the hopes they will vote for your party)

What's interesting about this is I work with a lot of folks from India-- they say most Euro countries are less willing to welcome migrants when compared to the US. Is this true?

The comments underneath the article are depressing and scary. If some of these predictions hold true Europe will be a shell of what it once was.....

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I was on a train in Italy a few years ago during the Arab Spring and the we stopped before going into France so all the French police could chase the migrants off the train. The last station in Italy was like a refugee center, with all the migrants camped out waiting to make their move into France. It's a lot worse now.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Like OP said, you can't help but understand why many of these folks want to leave their 'motherland' - persecution, poverty, war - many of the same reasons wave after wave of Europeans settled in North America.

Now who's 'burden' are they? That's a tough question - and I don't know the answer on a tactical level. We humans, especially the U.S. as an industrial superpower, does have a responsibility to care for and protect our fellow man when they're unable to do so.

It's probably two prong (at a minimum)

1 - If situations were better in their home countries, they wouldn't be fleeing left and right, so perhaps that's a start, find a way to make life/success/hope more tenable in the places they currently call home.

2 - Takes a while to fix #1 so in the meantime, investment into assimilation programs, language, etc... I'm talking real money and innovative approaches, not just lip-service factory-like methods begrudgingly used today. Have to prepare and equip these folks to succeed in a place that's extraordinarily different from anything they've ever seen.

These humans are going to wind up somewhere, we can't treat them as unwanted mail and return to sender - civilizations ought not work that way + it just wouldn't work.

(btw, regarding Indians in Europe -- Europeans are ridiculously racist against them, part of me wonders if it's because they feel economically threatened and hence want to hold them back)

 

[YogiNole]

What's interesting about this is I work with a lot of folks from India-- they say most Euro countries are less willing to welcome migrants when compared to the US. Is this true?

Not sure about how easy or tough Euro immigration towards Indians is, but those countries are more openly racist towards colored people than most places in the US. The worst I saw was at Heathrow airport on a British Airways flight to Mumbai, where they were openly shoving passengers and yelling at them. I've been on some sh!tty airlines in the US but never seen anything like this. The flight was a dump too, an older plane with no entertainment facilities for 9-10 hour flight. Seen similar things in Paris also.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Not sure about how easy or tough Euro immigration towards Indians is, but those countries are more openly racist towards colored people than most places in the US. The worst I saw was at Heathrow airport on a British Airways flight to Mumbai, where they were openly shoving passengers and yelling at them. I've been on some sh!tty airlines in the US but never seen anything like this. The flight was a dump too, an older plane with no entertainment facilities for 9-10 hour flight. Seen similar things in Paris also.

I always thought southern Europe was the most racist... until I visited northern Europe (Germany and Scandanavia), wowza! Thank god for eastern Europe.

 

[tolkien1]

Visiting the UK and France in 10 days. We are really interested to see if we notice signs of the immigration crisis.

 

[mnole03]

Like OP said, you can't help but understand why many of these folks want to leave their 'motherland' - persecution, poverty, war - many of the same reasons wave after wave of Europeans settled in North America.

Now who's 'burden' are they? That's a tough question - and I don't know the answer on a tactical level. We humans, especially the U.S. as an industrial superpower, does have a responsibility to care for and protect our fellow man when they're unable to do so.

It's probably two prong (at a minimum)

1 - If situations were better in their home countries, they wouldn't be fleeing left and right, so perhaps that's a start, find a way to make life/success/hope more tenable in the places they currently call home.

2 - Takes a while to fix #1 so in the meantime, investment into assimilation programs, language, etc... I'm talking real money and innovative approaches, not just lip-service factory-like methods begrudgingly used today. Have to prepare and equip these folks to succeed in a place that's extraordinarily different from anything they've ever seen.

These humans are going to wind up somewhere, we can't treat them as unwanted mail and return to sender - civilizations ought not work that way + it just wouldn't work.

(btw, regarding Indians in Europe -- Europeans are ridiculously racist against them, part of me wonders if it's because they feel economically threatened and hence want to hold them back)

I don't think racism is the driver in Europe. These countries have huge social safety nets that can't possibly support the number of people who want to immigrate. You also have cultural, economic, and legal systems that countries may want to maintain. There is a major difference between people who want to join and contribute to a country and people who just want out of where they are.

 

[RangerNole]

The bottom line is if a country wants to hopefully (I say hopefully because there is more to the formula) maintain there standard of living they must control who comes and goes into their country. It is really no more complicated than that. While some nations can absorb more economically needy immigrants; no nation can keep doing what we are and maintain our culture and living standard. Want to know why wages are stagnant; well one big reason is because there are someone willing to do that work for less because to them it is big money. The majority of immigrants legal and illegal are pretty good people who just want a chance to have a better life; although there is a significant number who come and have no desire to assimilate and in some cases only come for criminal reasons.
If you look at one of the main factors for so many people leaving their country of origin it is not just opportunity but over population as well and these 2 feed on each other. One question that I have always had is why don't these folks work hard at changing their country for the better than just leaving and coming to a country like the US. I have to wonder about the motivation of many immigrants if they are not willing to sacrifice in order to make their country better; but instead just pop smoke and leave. The US could also do more to help these nations improve; we dump billions into foreign aid and most of that ends up in a select few leaders and their country is no better off. I am 100% for sealing the border PERIOD, then we figure out what to do about all those already here illegally. You have to stop the bleeding before you can fix anything. Will some families be separated and will there be sad sob stories? Yep there sure will, but life is full of tough outcomes and some people have it worse than others.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I don't think racism is the driver in Europe. These countries have huge social safety nets that can't possibly support the number of people who want to immigrate. You also have cultural, economic, and legal systems that countries may want to maintain. There is a major difference between people who want to join and contribute to a country and people who just want out of where they are.

Fair, i think it's some part racism, which I've personally experienced as a tourist simply trying to waste money.
But you're also right, there are some cultural + economic concerns (that I'm sure get exaggerated by media/politicians) that are rightfully at play as well.

But again, as OP asks, what is the answer? These folks are going to wind up somewhere and humanity can't just push them off to suffer and die elsewhere. Logically, investing and innovating in realistic assimilation programs (sounds too brain-washy, but will just use that term for now) in addition to externally providing economic development assistance in suffering home countries seems like the logical course of action. Or just build "yuuuuuge" f'ing walls

 

[ReliableOstrich]

why don't these folks work hard at changing their country for the better than just leaving and coming to a country like the US

Umm, do you realize how hard it is to change things that are broken in the U.S.? Imagine doing that in a country 10x more corrupt while you've got 100x less money. It's nearly impossible without Arab Spring type event -- and I don't know that the U.S. wants to encourage more of those.

 

[GwinnettNole]

The bottom line is if a country wants to hopefully (I say hopefully because there is more to the formula) maintain there standard of living they must control who comes and goes into their country. It is really no more complicated than that. While some nations can absorb more economically needy immigrants; no nation can keep doing what we are and maintain our culture and living standard. Want to know why wages are stagnant; well one big reason is because there are someone willing to do that work for less because to them it is big money. The majority of immigrants legal and illegal are pretty good people who just want a chance to have a better life; although there is a significant number who come and have no desire to assimilate and in some cases only come for criminal reasons.
If you look at one of the main factors for so many people leaving their country of origin it is not just opportunity but over population as well and these 2 feed on each other. One question that I have always had is why don't these folks work hard at changing their country for the better than just leaving and coming to a country like the US. I have to wonder about the motivation of many immigrants if they are not willing to sacrifice in order to make their country better; but instead just pop smoke and leave. The US could also do more to help these nations improve; we dump billions into foreign aid and most of that ends up in a select few leaders and their country is no better off. I am 100% for sealing the border PERIOD, then we figure out what to do about all those already here illegally. You have to stop the bleeding before you can fix anything. Will some families be separated and will there be sad sob stories? Yep there sure will, but life is full of tough outcomes and some people have it worse than others.

Pretty much agree with this. My heart goes out to the people that want out but a well established society cannot keep letting more and more people in. The system will collapse. Now if they do it legally than I'm all for that... but the open borders and just letting people in because they want to escape is a bad idea.

I love the idea of these people staying in their motherland to make their situation better but I'm assuming 99% come from a place that is a dictatorship, which is virtually impossible?

 

[RancheroNole]

The bottom line is if a country wants to hopefully (I say hopefully because there is more to the formula) maintain there standard of living they must control who comes and goes into their country. It is really no more complicated than that. While some nations can absorb more economically needy immigrants; no nation can keep doing what we are and maintain our culture and living standard. Want to know why wages are stagnant; well one big reason is because there are someone willing to do that work for less because to them it is big money. The majority of immigrants legal and illegal are pretty good people who just want a chance to have a better life; although there is a significant number who come and have no desire to assimilate and in some cases only come for criminal reasons.
If you look at one of the main factors for so many people leaving their country of origin it is not just opportunity but over population as well and these 2 feed on each other. One question that I have always had is why don't these folks work hard at changing their country for the better than just leaving and coming to a country like the US. I have to wonder about the motivation of many immigrants if they are not willing to sacrifice in order to make their country better; but instead just pop smoke and leave. The US could also do more to help these nations improve; we dump billions into foreign aid and most of that ends up in a select few leaders and their country is no better off. I am 100% for sealing the border PERIOD, then we figure out what to do about all those already here illegally. You have to stop the bleeding before you can fix anything. Will some families be separated and will there be sad sob stories? Yep there sure will, but life is full of tough outcomes and some people have it worse than others.

^^Well Said Sir, well said!^^

 

[BelemNole]

Stay at home and fix the problem sounds like a great plan, until the government starts dropping bombs on your neighborhood and you're down to just you and a couple kids left. You're going to leave them in the house and "go fix the problem"? Or are you going to take your babies and run to a place where they may yet live long enough to lose their milk teeth?
I don't know what to do with them either, but telling them to sit it out in these war zones seems callous.

 

[RangerNole]

Good thing a bunch of folks a few 100 years ago did not have the same attitude as some of the folks in here. Take on the British Empire IMPOSSIBLE. No one said it would be easy and just because it is hard it still does no make it right to flood our nation and overwhelm our programs. Those that believe well it is to hard and they have no other choice well then I would recommend that you start a company and find all those that have the same belief get your names and addresses out; then all those that come here illegally can just come to your house and you can directly support them; see how long your bank account stays in the black. I am sure that many of these countries suck; hell I have been to many of them and done things to help; but sad stories and tough times don't give anyone the right to just go to another country and get stuff that they did not invest in or pay for. In many cases by just ignoring a problem or thinking you are doing someone a solid by allowing certain behaviors since they have a tough time is really doing the worst thing you can for that person. At some point you run out of money and you could cut our military to 50k get rid of every tax break for the so called rich and all that would do is delay bankruptcy. No nation or even some super rich guy can just take on more and more people that give nothing in return. There was a 30 for 30 many may have seen about all the bankrupt athletes and we are talking about HOF guys; everybody always says man how can somebody burn through all that money, it was millions and millions? It is not hard when you have 100 hangers on and all they do is get stuff without putting anything in; but please go on thinking that we can continue the current path; just remember your opinion today when the stuff you need and paid taxes for your whole life aren't there anymore.

 

[Spearchucker87]

......One question that I have always had is why don't these folks work hard at changing their country for the better than just leaving and coming to a country like the US. I have to wonder about the motivation of many immigrants if they are not willing to sacrifice in order to make their country better; but instead just pop smoke and leave. The US could also do more to help these nations improve; we dump billions into foreign aid and most of that ends up in a select few leaders and their country is no better off. I am 100% for sealing the border PERIOD, then we figure out what to do about all those already here illegally.

As far as the European crisis, a lot of the immigrants now / over the past 2 years, are folks fleeing the dangerous forces that have been unleashed in Syria and Iraq; unleashed partly due to US action or inaction. Many parts of those countries are completely hopeless. Trying to change things for the better has a good chance of being a personal death sentence. With our own illegal immigration problem, I would concur with sealing the border and maintaining control/records, of who we let in from then on. We probably need some of them to continue coming. But we ought to decide who that is ourselves, not let illegals decide for us.

 

[RangerNole]

As far as the European crisis, a lot of the immigrants now / over the past 2 years, are folks fleeing the dangerous forces that have been unleashed in Syria and Iraq; unleashed partly due to US action or inaction. Many parts of those countries are completely hopeless. Trying to change things for the better has a good chance of being a personal death sentence. With our own illegal immigration problem, I would concur with sealing the border and maintaining control/records, of who we let in from then on. We probably need some of them to continue coming. But we ought to decide who that is ourselves, not let illegals decide for us.

Spear I agree somewhat; but how long have many of these countries in the ME been disasters. Look at the wealth in just SA and Kuwait and 100 miles away are places that are 200 years behind; what are these countries doing to help their neighbors? Take a look at countries in Latin America and many are loaded with resources like oil and gas yet there is a tiny minority that live ultra rich lifestyles and a large majority that can't even eat daily, look at the corruption it makes our government look clean. Again I am sure it would be very very hard to facilitate change in many of these countries; but that is they way life is for some people and if they are unwilling to lay down their life for change in their country then nothing will change.

 

[BelemNole]

"Hey guy, you and your family just stay there and wait to be raped and killed because we got enough people over here already and I'm afraid my taxes may go up if we let your boat land." just sounds a little weak.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Again I am sure it would be very very hard to facilitate change in many of these countries; but that is they way life is for some people and if they are unwilling to lay down their life for change in their country then nothing will change.

Did you pay no attention to the Arab Spring? Hell even in Syria, regular folks tried to gain freedom by ousting Assad - but when that crap doesn't work and you're suddenly being chased around threatened with decapitation, what the f do you expect these people to do?!

 

[ReliableOstrich]

"Hey guy, you and your family just stay there and wait to be raped and killed because we got enough people over here already and I'm afraid my taxes may go up if we let your boat land." just sounds a little weak.

If you come here and burden our system, I might not be able to afford my new boat -- well actually I probably still will, but I will be really pissy while watching news stories about how you came here - so yea, don't ruin my day you lazy bastard!"

 

[Spearchucker87]

Spear I agree somewhat; but how long have many of these countries in the ME been disasters. Look at the wealth in just SA and Kuwait and 100 miles away are places that are 200 years behind; what are these countries doing to help their neighbors? Take a look at countries in Latin America and many are loaded with resources like oil and gas yet there is a tiny minority that live ultra rich lifestyles and a large majority that can't even eat daily, look at the corruption it makes our government look clean. Again I am sure it would be very very hard to facilitate change in many of these countries; but that is they way life is for some people and if they are unwilling to lay down their life for change in their country then nothing will change.

Can't argue with any of that. Western countries I believe have made numerous attempts to elevate countries of "alien" culture, by dropping into their laps systems that have worked well for us. But they generally don't work because the culture that's ingrained there works against those systems flourishing. I don't know that the answer is but I don't think we can "fix" most of these places. They have to reach some kind of better equilibrium on their own, through slow natural processes that might take a very long time. Obviously our attempts at nation building at the point of a sword, in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been miserable failures. We've had some limited success at peaceful nation building I think, maybe in the Phillipines, Mexico, one or 2 south American nations, 1 or 2 in Africa. But for the most part prosperity depends on a nation's underlying culture, and that's something we can't fix.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I don't know that the answer is but I don't think we can "fix" most of these places. They have to reach some kind of better equilibrium on their own, through slow natural processes that might take a very long time.

Iraq had a better equilibrium than it currently does until Bush43 decided to finish daddy's war. We destabilized the whole region - and now we're pissy about the fallout?

 

[GwinnettNole]

"Hey guy, you and your family just stay there and wait to be raped and killed because we got enough people over here already and I'm afraid my taxes may go up if we let your boat land." just sounds a little weak.

I get what you are saying but is there no concern from you in regards to the national debt which will only get ineviteably worse as more people are added to the country who would not be able to pay their way? I have to think a Greek like collapse is bound to occur.... so while the act is noble is there concern from you that this could actually lead to the desctruction of this country?

 

[mnole03]

If you come here and burden our system, I might not be able to afford my new boat -- well actually I probably still will, but I will be really pissy while watching news stories about how you came here - so yea, don't ruin my day you lazy bastard!"

These people aren't fleeing to safer less-developed countries or emerging growth areas. They're intentionally seeking out the countries with the most generous social welfare systems. They're safe in France. That's not the reason they're trying to get to the UK. It's rent-seeking immigration in most cases.

 

[Spearchucker87]

I get what you are saying but is there no concern from you in regards to the national debt which will only get ineviteably worse as more people are added to the country who would not be able to pay their way? I have to think a Greek like collapse is bound to occur.... so while the act is noble is there concern from you that this could actually lead to the desctruction of this country?

We Americans could afford to be less compassionate than we might wish the Europeans to be. Those Mideasterners are in some cases practically fleeing genocide. but the majority who invade the US southern border are not fleeing a life-threatening circumstance. They come here and depress wages and limit opportunities for our nations own poor underclass. I don't know if we'll become Greece, but we're certainly causing our prosperity to wane by continuing to spend excessively on both domestic and military concerns. At some point we'll have to choose. Adding to the govt assistance class is not helping matters.

 

[Spearchucker87]

Iraq had a better equilibrium than it currently does until Bush43 decided to finish daddy's war. We destabilized the whole region - and now we're pissy about the fallout?

We probably should avoid getting too political. I'll just say that I certainly don't argue that the Iraq war has improved the region. I agree that today it is likely worse than it would have been if we'd left the despot in power or his sons. But we didn't have to let it fall all the way apart the way it has, or let billions of dollars of US military equipment fall into the hands of ISIL. A lot of this current situation does not fall at the feet of Bush 43: While the situation was bad when he left, the complete disintegration was allowed to happen later. Does the US as a nation bear a huge amount of responsibility for current circumstances? 100%. We've put in power the administrations that did this stuff. Iraqis and Syrians permanently thrown out of their countries (or worse), ME Christians practically put through a genocide, etc, could rightfully resent the US for much of their trouble.

Keep in mind though, if as I suspect you're not a fan of the right wing of politics, we never would have had the left turn in policy we took without that war. Without the out of control insurgency in Iraq in 2006, Dems don't sweep congress, and the far left probably never takes control of the dem party, which guaranteed a broad healthcare overhaul no matter which Dem won in 2008. I've thought many times that all the people who were wishing for Bush to prevail in Bush V. Gore 2000, would now be living in a world much more to their liking had Gore prevailed. My hunch is that many on the far Right would take a do-over, if they could go back, not do the war, but not have Obamacare or Elena Kagen or Sonya Sotomayor. Do Dems hate the war so much that they would take the same do-over?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I get what you are saying but is there no concern from you in regards to the national debt which will only get ineviteably worse as more people are added to the country who would not be able to pay their way? I have to think a Greek like collapse is bound to occur.... so while the act is noble is there concern from you that this could actually lead to the desctruction of this country?

Not really - if effective assimilation policies were put into place, created to invest money in an innovative education and assimilation process, I think many of these folks could quickly (3-4 years) become valuable, educated members of society.

I have exact thoughts on how this could be done, based on what i've seen work, we can go into that if you'd like but I don't profess to being expert on this, but I do strongly maintain that if we really wanted to help these folks, we could - and benefit the US bottom line in the process. It's just that the masses prefer to look down on them as leeches and as such, deprive them of the right kind of assistance and opportunity, resulting in them winding up as wards of the state for extended periods of time ---- overall i'd say this about how we treat many of our at risk youth that are americans as well.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

We probably should avoid getting too political. I'll just say that I certainly don't argue that the Iraq war has improved the region. I agree that today it is likely worse than it would have been if we'd left the despot in power or his sons.

Without getting too into the politics, the policies of current and previous administrations have destroyed that region beyond any foreseeable repair - including the equilibrium which duct taped the whole damn thing together for decades.

We disbanded a well-trained and armed sunni military, prevented anyone from the baathist party from participating in the new government (both done by Bremer in 2003). In the months/years after, we created weak but spiteful govt eventually led by al-Maliki (a shia), that tormented sunnis. And we trained an army of inexperienced shia fighters, expected to fight trained and senior members of Saddam's heavily sunni Republic Guard who had by then joined militias.. These weren't joe schmoe militias these guys knew what they were doing and were fighting an army of barely trained guys with our guns but without our resolve - it's no surprise our weapons fell and continue to fall into the wrong hands - and hands that know how to use them relatively effectively.

In any event, without going into all the history, saddam was a bastard and piece of shit no doubt. BUT he kept the fuse out of the powder-keg. We were too stupid to realize that (or at least some were) and by rambunctiously invading we pulled the pin on that grenade.

I'm not sure that any course of action would have prevented what we're seeing today other than a full. nearly perpetual military occupation of Iraq (and hence on-going militia violence against US + shia troops) or some sort of thoughtful creation of an inclusive government from day one, rather than leaving the baathists politicians and entrenched sunni army out to dry with nothing to do but focus their military knowledge and community building skills on other than insanely destroying what had been taken from them.

By picking sides and not fostering an inclusive government, even if that meant allowing some of the former regime to retain power - we sealed Iraq's fate for a decade+ to come.

.... I feel I've rambled sufficiently off topic now.

 

[Ward17]

Iraq and Syria were fine (for Syria and Iraq standards) until we killed Saddam.

This issue goes way back to WWI though, the way the French and English royally screwed up drawing those middle east borders.

The only solution is you accept those who can contribute to your society, wait out the battle royal in Syria, then never ever interfere in Middle East affairs again.

 

[Banditking]

Iraq had a better equilibrium than it currently does until Bush43 decided to finish daddy's war. We destabilized the whole region - and now we're pissy about the fallout?

Uh. We destabilized the middle east?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Uh. We destabilized the middle east?

Yes, the Middle East had a relative equilibrium (by their standards anyway).
Can you honestly tell me it wasn't more stable in 2002 than it is now?
Is even a single group of people distinctly better off now than they were 2002?

It's not surprise innocent folks are heading for the hills - we laid down the blueprint for militia based sectarian violence by disbanding and marginalizing Saddam's sunni army and baath party.

Even in Rwanda Paul Kagame, a Tutsi, knew not to politically ostracize all the Hutu in spite of the genocide of his own people that had just ended. Kagame is not without his flaws (many of them in fact) but he has held that nation together and as a whole, they're almost all much better off for it and it has greatly slowed the Rwandan refugee epidemic.
Since he took power, avg life expectancy is up by 11 years and tourism is burgeoning (tracking gorillas through the forest being a VERY popular draw for westerners).

 

[Banditking]

It's just rearranging chairs for the barbarian horde.

 

[nynole1]

I've got a great place to start: Stop having kids you can't afford!!! The birthrate in the U.S. and Europe is way lower than most other parts of the world, the same parts that keep having their people flood into those countries. This world is royally screwed if things keep up the way they are going.

 

[Fijimn]

Uh. We destabilized the middle east?

Well...I would place the original blame on the British who waged a campaign of internal insurrection--funding independent minded Bedouin tribes--to rebel against a declining Ottoman Empire that had controlled the region for 500 years.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

The West has meddled and exploited the ME forever, same as Africa. And still we wonder why the whole world doesn't transform into our neat little view of democracy and "civilized society" in just a matter of years.

I think behind Bush's plan for Iraq (and Obama's tacit support for the Arab Spring(s)) was that the ME people would collectively blossom and move towards greatness once out from underneath the repressive dictatorships. But clearly we just helped create vacuums that were filled by people worse than what we had.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

The West has meddled and exploited the ME forever, same as Africa. And still we wonder why the whole world doesn't transform into our neat little view of democracy and "civilized society" in just a matter of years.

I think behind Bush's plan for Iraq (and Obama's tacit support for the Arab Spring(s)) was that the ME people would collectively blossom and move towards greatness once out from underneath the repressive dictatorships. But clearly we just helped create vacuums that were filled by people worse than what we had.

I would also say you can't expect a bountiful and peaceful democratic state to blossom in just a few years. The US fought how many wars, including our own bloody Civil War, within the first 80 years of our creation?

I wonder if the Brits were across the pond ridiculing us, "those blood American's can get their crap together, haha, let's bomb them and fix it for them."

It takes a long time to find an equilibrium and it certainly doesn't help with outside interests are meddling, bombing, and arming sides as they short-sightedly see fit.

 

[Spearchucker87]

I've got a great place to start: Stop having kids you can't afford!!! The birthrate in the U.S. and Europe is way lower than most other parts of the world, the same parts that keep having their people flood into those countries. This world is royally screwed if things keep up the way they are going.

Depends on what kind of society it is. In some places having 6-7 kids is economically better than having 1-2. But western countries are still going to be even more economically attractive to those offspring.

Europe needs some of that immigration precisely b/c the birthrate of indigenous people couples is 1.7 to 1.9. You can't maintain a vibrant society (and they don't) with that low a birthrate.

In the US anybody can afford to have as many kids as the want, can't they? Haven't we chosen to pay for them through welfare? So of course people will have kids they themselves couldn't afford without the govt. I've known of women who were trying like crazy to have a baby so they could get the check, to the point of telling guys they were medically unable to get pregnant, so don't wear a condom (and that's across racial lines).

 

[nynole1]

Depends on what kind of society it is. In some places having 6-7 kids is economically better than having 1-2. But western countries are still going to be even more economically attractive to those offspring.

Europe needs some of that immigration precisely b/c the birthrate of indigenous people couples is 1.7 to 1.9. You can't maintain a vibrant society (and they don't) with that low a birthrate.

In the US anybody can afford to have as many kids as the want, can't they? Haven't we chosen to pay for them through welfare? So of course people will have kids they themselves couldn't afford without the govt. I've known of women who were trying like crazy to have a baby so they could get the check, to the point of telling guys they were medically unable to get pregnant, so don't wear a condom (and that's across racial lines).

You are preaching to the choir with your last paragraph and its a complete joke. Like most other problems in this country, they could be solved with a big dose of self respect, something people are greatly lacking. If you can afford them, have as many as you want. If you are in one of those places where its economically better to have more, don't expect to be able to ship them over here when you can no longer sustain them.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Depends on what kind of society it is. In some places having 6-7 kids is economically better than having 1-2. But western countries are still going to be even more economically attractive to those offspring.

Europe needs some of that immigration precisely b/c the birthrate of indigenous people couples is 1.7 to 1.9. You can't maintain a vibrant society (and they don't) with that low a birthrate.

I'm pretty concerned about the Europe as we know it. Many of here have ancestry in that part of the world and love the sheer beauty of some oof the historic areas. I'm half English and half Italian and hold that as a part of badge of who I am-- I know it might be ridiculous to some but family runs deep .

I would hate to see the old country go to the crapper but it doesn't sound good-- especially with that birth rate. Did they do this to themselves however? I would love to read an article on how this came to be for Europe.

 

[ChimpNole]

Within the next 20-30 years Europe will not exist as we know it because of Islamic immigration. France has a birth rate of about 1.8 where as Muslim immigrants to France have a birthrate of about 8.1. For a culture to maintain itself a birthrate of 2.11 needs to exist. Most of the countries in Europe have a birthrate between 1.9 to about 1.3. Europe will be an Islamic republic by 2040 to 2050. Gadaffi was correct when he said that jihad will be won without a shot fired. We'll win by immigration.

 

[Spearchucker87]

I'm pretty concerned about the Europe as we know it. Many of here have ancestry in that part of the world and love the sheer beauty of some oof the historic areas. I'm half English and half Italian and hold that as a part of badge of who I am-- I know it might be ridiculous to some but family runs deep .
I would hate to see the old country go to the crapper but it doesn't sound good-- especially with that birth rate. Did they do this to themselves however? I would love to read an article on how this came to be for Europe.

I’ve talked about it a lot with a friend of mine from Strasbourg. He says the French and other countries allowed a lot of immigration from former European colony states, the bulk of it from muslim areas. So in France for instance, a lot of them came from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco. And they just do not integrate and assimilate well, regardless of the atmosphere of the country to which they relocate. It leads to large enclaves of disaffected citizens, mostly lower class economically. And you have extremist elements that prey upon the vulnerability and unhappiness to foment discontent and even radicalism. Interestingly, it seems the 2nd and 3rd generations are more disaffected, more troublesome / less well integrated into society than their first generation parents that started to come after WW II. You’ve seen the riots and the car burnings over there. Muslims in the US tend to integrate pretty well. It’s just nothing like that in much of Europe. Maybe here, there are relatively so fewer of them that they are much more influenced by their interactions with Americans and by the general culture here. Over there, where Britain and France might have 10% muslims, they can easily retreat into their own little world, with its high unemployment, poverty and anger.