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RangerNole

Seminole Insider
Apr 13, 2003
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Watched a little of the Zuckerberg testimony and it was as expected; politicians grandstanding and Zuckerberg doing his best to not be specific. Try and keep this non-political for as long as possible.
IMO how you manage social media should be on the adult of parent; however there are some real concerns with data being used and social media being manipulated. I really have no idea how you manage that. Sadly I have to think the government will do something and it will likely not be helpful.

Not really concerned about the political stuff; IMO if you get your news or decide who to vote for based on Facebook stuff I would just prefer you didn't vote at all. My bigger issue is how they combat Facebook being used as a tool for crimes, bullying etc.
 
Thing is, most adults/parents don't fully understand how Facebook (or many other tech companies) a) use their data and b) seed their content with ads/information based on that data.

I've long said that Americans need a crash course in political literacy and media literacy, perhaps even more important than that is internet/tech literacy.

I'm not saying everyone should learn to code but everyone should be aware of how the internet works
ISPs, cell providers - the data they can access,
the impact of net neutrality (or its repeal),
how sites like FB use your data,
how to protect and cultivate your online identity,
how to identify and deal w/ trolls/bullies,
how cookies work,
digital ad targeting,
etc...

In fact, kids are likely more savvy in most of the above than their parents.

We as a nation are basically one new malicious version of Farmville away from handing over our prized personal data to a "Nigerian prince" just to get a few more digital sheep.
 
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Morning drive show brought up a valid point this morning. The Terms of Use Agreement and how sites are junking these things up knowing that people never read them. The idea they pitched was, if FB or another social media engine pitched "if you'll subscribe for $5-$10/month, you'll see no ads and none of your information goes anywhere but within said network", would you agree to that instead?
 
GoNolesTX said:
Morning drive show brought up a valid point this morning. The Terms of Use Agreement and how sites are junking these things up knowing that people never read them. The idea they pitched was, if FB or another social media engine pitched "if you'll subscribe for $5-$10/month, you'll see no ads and none of your information goes anywhere but within said network", would you agree to that instead?
Click to expand...
Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook's COO, proposed (perhaps out of turn vis a vis Facebook) the same thing on the Today Show yesterday - a paid version of FB wherein there are no ads and your data goes no where. I'd consider it, but also my FB usage has gone down 80% over the last year. Of course that's not the point, whatever they were doing w/ my FB data they will soon (or are already) do with my IG and Whatsapp data.

As far as the ToS being so convoluted that no one reads them, Zuck did mention that he would suggest some regulation that requires companies to provide a laymans version of those terms so that the average person can actually make sense of them. I would support that.

FB does a lot of things with our data and IMO they don't intend to be shady about it but it just so happens very few people bothered to check under the hood - and if they looked they'd have no idea how to make heads or tails of it. But to be fair FB is naive (or in denial) about how they address breaches (perhaps willfully) and that must change.
 
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Maybe it’s an artifact of a young brush with a truly totalitarian society (East Germany), but I’ve always looked at these things (social media) from the perspective of how they could be misused and it really has kept me away from them.

And you can give mom and pop a class on cookies and incognito mode, but with the granularity that they can fingerprint browsers and their plugins and platforms, these ad networks are still going to build targeted ads, even assuming your audience can really grasp what you’re trying to relay.

Funny thing I heard on the radio the other day was how a mom complained that Facebook ads were showing her kids what Xmas gifts she had looked up...
 
ReliableOstrich said:
. Of course that's not the point, whatever they were doing w/ my FB data they will soon (or are already) do with my IG and Whatsapp data.

FB does a lot of things with our data and IMO they don't intend to be shady. But to be fair FB is naive (or in denial) about how they address breaches (perhaps willfully) and that must change.
Click to expand...

They are already doing it with your IG, Whatsapp, Iphone account, Android account, Mapping apps, Outlook, GMail, Datings apps and all of your social media accounts.

Facebook is not naive, or in denial, Facebook FULLY intends to be shaddy. It's their business model. Zuck has been shady since college.

Some people definitely need a crash course in media literacy.

 
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seminole97 said:
Maybe it’s an artifact of a young brush with a truly totalitarian society (East Germany), but I’ve always looked at these things (social media) from the perspective of how they could be misused and it really has kept me away from them.

And you can give mom and pop a class on cookies and incognito mode, but with the granularity that they can fingerprint browsers and their plugins and platforms, these ad networks are still going to build targeted ads, even assuming your audience can really grasp what you’re trying to relay.

Funny thing I heard on the radio the other day was how a mom complained that Facebook ads were showing her kids what Xmas gifts she had looked up...
Click to expand...
Agreed, there's really no dodging the targeted ads and the like. I've got some friends who work at FB and Amex, it's crazy to hear the joint projects the two companies do together, basically linking your entire online history with your purchase history + travel history. All I can hope for is that people understand how targeted content and ads work so they know what they're seeing and why they're seeing it.

Like you said, it's a matter of time until this stuff gets truly misused, so far we've seen it abused but if someone really malicious gets their hands on it we could see some awful things. Imagine (or preferably don't) someone like Hitler having access to the depth of personal information on the populace that companies like FB have. Could make the Black Mirror, Handmaids Tale, and China's social credit score look like fairy tales.

Not sure what to do though, toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. Just gotta hope we can teach folks how to assess things and take marginal steps to protect themselves. Technology will always be a few steps ahead though. I would favor some regulations but am skeptical of a bunch of special interest bought octogenarians in Congress being able to understand the subject matter well enough to come up with anything fair, positive or impactful.
 
GoNolesTX said:
Morning drive show brought up a valid point this morning. The Terms of Use Agreement and how sites are junking these things up knowing that people never read them. The idea they pitched was, if FB or another social media engine pitched "if you'll subscribe for $5-$10/month, you'll see no ads and none of your information goes anywhere but within said network", would you agree to that instead?
Click to expand...

I would think about it but at this point all my data is out there. Heck my data has been compromised by the State of SC, DOD, OMB, VA and those are just the ones I can think of. You also have to think you wold have to do this with every social media or whatever system that is out there, not just Facebook.
We had a former FBI cyber person come to our school to talk about social media. She gave 2 talks 1 to parents and 1 to kids. She said if you wanted to truly and fully wipe your social media history it would cost over 30k and they are still not sure they would get everything.
 
The bigger issue here - Ranger Nole's use of paragraphs, and his frequent detractors failure to acknowledge this.

The man has given you that for which you have been clamoring, please consider showing enough character to recognize his efforts.
 
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Nolomite said:
The bigger issue here - Ranger Nole's use of paragraphs, and his frequent detractors failure to acknowledge this.

The man has given you that for which you have been clamoring, please consider showing enough character to recognize his efforts.
Click to expand...

Thank you I am glad someone has noticed my tireless effort to improve myself all for the joy of others.
 
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Nolomite said:
The bigger issue here - Ranger Nole's use of paragraphs, and his frequent detractors failure to acknowledge this.

The man has given you that for which you have been clamoring, please consider showing enough character to recognize his efforts.
Click to expand...
giphy.gif
 
Internet service providers are just sitting there quietly, hoping no one realizes that that this same Congress--which is now concerned about our internet privacy--slashed an FCC regulation that gave us more control over what ISPs could share. The new policy initiatives--i.e. pro-business/anti-regulation--gutted the Power of the FCC and FTC to regulate these guys. The feds were starting to catch up with the tech companies and manufacturers that were collecting data in manners that most people thought were not kocher. See investigation on Vizio..
 
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RTM58 said:
They are already doing it with your IG, Whatsapp, Iphone account, Android account, Mapping apps, Outlook, GMail, Datings apps and all of your social media accounts.

Facebook is not naive, or in denial, Facebook FULLY intends to be shaddy. It's their business model. Zuck has been shady since college.

Some people definitely need a crash course in media literacy.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I was taking it easy on FB partly to not spark an unnecessary argument here, but you won't see me argue any of your points.

Google and Apple likely know and have access to more information about me than anyone. While Apple does some ad targeting, it's Google's bread and butter.

If something awful were to happen and the gov't subpeonaed all user data from Apple, FB, Google under the auspices of national security... we'd very quickly be living in a brave new world.

There are already reports that DHS has access to a private Facebook API that gives them access to individuals' private information and while few here are likely to oppose that, just imagine if one day it's you for no apparent reason.
 
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ReliableOstrich said:
Agreed, I was taking it easy on FB partly to not spark an unnecessary argument here, but you won't see me argue any of your points.

Google and Apple likely know and have access to more information about me than anyone. While Apple does some ad targeting, it's Google's bread and butter.

If something awful were to happen and the gov't subpeonaed all user data from Apple, FB, Google under the auspices of national security... we'd very quickly be living in a brave new world.

There are already reports that DHS has access to a private Facebook API that gives them access to individuals' private information and while few here are likely to oppose that, just imagine if one day it's you for no apparent reason.
Click to expand...

Yep and we have all seen how things taken out of context can be used to destroy a person. I have to believe at some point all the social media stuff will come back to haunt people. I know many companies do social media searches. The lady that spoke to us said many universities do it as well and that some people have lost scholarships based on underage drinking posted in social media.

Who knows but even if the info is used incorrectly who has the time and money to fight something like that.
 
So, for a layman:

Why do I care if Google, FB, Apple collect my data, and use it to give me targeted ads, or whatever?

As Joe Citizen- why do I care? As long as my ex can't see my current posts, and work can't see my posting pictures of playing hookie; what sort of privacy am I giving away?
 
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ReliableOstrich said:
I appreciate your link but generally steer clear of clicking on anything related to zerohedge.
Not doubting the veracity of the links content (which I have not opened/read).
Click to expand...

Afraid your media/political/technical literacy isn’t up to the task? ;)
 
TennNole17 said:
So, for a layman:

Why do I care if Google, FB, Apple collect my data, and use it to give me targeted ads, or whatever?

As Joe Citizen- why do I care? As long as my ex can't see my current posts, and work can't see my posting pictures of playing hookie; what sort of privacy am I giving away?
Click to expand...

For a lot of people, they believe that their internet searches are semi-private (i.e., they are aware that the feds can access their searches to see if they had recently searched howtokillmywhorewife.com or went to sites that showed how to make a bomb); however, outside of that, most people feel that what they look at on their computer should be private. However, it is not. So if TennNole likes to go to freekydeeky.com, and also have another page open to adultdiapers.com, Google and your ISP have data that your are into some freaky sheet and they are going to sell that knowledge to ad service agencies that will now bombard you with direct adds.
 
TennNole17 said:
So, for a layman:

Why do I care if Google, FB, Apple collect my data, and use it to give me targeted ads, or whatever?

As Joe Citizen- why do I care? As long as my ex can't see my current posts, and work can't see my posting pictures of playing hookie; what sort of privacy am I giving away?
Click to expand...


One complaint I have with Facebook is creating an echo chamber for the masses, regardless of affiliation. Most people do this enough consciously, aligning ourselves primarily with one direction or another that best fits our perspective. When it happens unknowingly, the exposure to only one side adds to the division we are seeing right now. This adds to growing hostility towards the "other side" and reinforces alignment with preconceived notions. I've seen it happen with my sister, and i'm sure it happens more wide-spread. It warps people's understanding and perception of prevalence. Most people don't really have an understanding for how content appears on their Facebook or even Twitter timeline. It used to be most recent content posted at the top. Now, some algorithm places things for you to see in an order that doesn't make any sense to me. It would seem that is very easily to manipulate when it is not transparent.

It's fine if we're talking just brands here, but the reach of targeted content grows far beyond simple advertisement for products.

If you ever want to see how bad things have gotten with social media tough guys, check out the comment sections on just about anything. Even mundane things tend to devolve into vitriol.
 
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Fijimn said:
For a lot of people, they believe that their internet searches are semi-private (i.e., they are aware that the feds can access their searches to see if they had recently searched howtokillmywhorewife.com or went to sites that showed how to make a bomb); however, outside of that, most people feel that what they look at on their computer should be private. However, it is not. So if TennNole likes to go to freekydeeky.com, and also have another page open to adultdiapers.com, Google and your ISP have data that your are into some freaky sheet and they are going to sell that knowledge to ad service agencies that will now bombard you with direct adds.
Click to expand...
I mean, if I'm into freaky stuff, and I get ads for it....yay?

I'm not being argumentative for the hell of it, I really just don't know.

DMM's post above, does ring true to me from a consumer point of view. My feed used to be just most recent stuff, even if that stuff sucked. Now it's sorted in ways I can't really figure out. If my feed suddenly becomes artificially full of right (or left) leaning agenda crap, I can customize that with a click though, "show me less of Ben Shapiro". (I like Ben, just seems I watched or liked one thing now he's everywhere on my feed lol)
 
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TennNole17 said:
I mean, if I'm into freaky stuff, and I get ads for it....yay?

I'm not being argumentative for the hell of it, I really just don't know.

DMM's post above, does ring true to me from a consumer point of view. My feed used to be just most recent stuff, even if that stuff sucked. Now it's sorted in ways I can't really figure out. If my feed suddenly becomes artificially full of right (or left) leaning agenda crap, I can customize that with a click though, "show me less of Ben Shapiro". (I like Ben, just seems I watched or liked one thing now he's everywhere on my feed lol)
Click to expand...

It's not the function of receiving ads that people find offensive, it is the fact that third-parties are now allowed to keep a dossier of our private activities. There was a time when that was offensive to our American creed. There are an infinite number permutations of how this data can be abused by private and governmental entities.
 
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I'm not on Facebook but fully expect my data to be sold from all manner of sites. This is simply a more extreme version of your local shopkeeper knowing some of your family, where you live, and what car you drive.
 
NoleMoreTears said:
I'm not on Facebook but fully expect my data to be sold from all manner of sites. This is simply a more extreme version of your local shopkeeper knowing some of your family, where you live, and what car you drive.
Click to expand...

It's kinda like a Cuban neck tie is a more extreme version of shaving nick.

My office was pitched by a demographic firm a year back. They had a live feed of all of the cars on the road in the UK. This seemed odd, but they said it was OK because they didn't have names attached to the cars just numbers like 666. They said in the next few years they believe they will be able to tie name to the numbers by sorting data from different "sources" and analyzing it. They got the cars by pinging your phone in the middle of the night and assume that that was home. And by pinging it during the day they could figure out where you work. They could see what you did during the day and as such could figure out where we should advertise and where we should build new retail. My local shopkeeper, my boss and my ex-wife's divorce attorney never had live access to such info and that's the way I, for one, like it.

 
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TennNole17 said:
So, for a layman:

Why do I care if Google, FB, Apple collect my data, and use it to give me targeted ads, or whatever?

As Joe Citizen- why do I care? As long as my ex can't see my current posts, and work can't see my posting pictures of playing hookie; what sort of privacy am I giving away?
Click to expand...
Also a good question.

@dmm5157 and @Fijimn both gave good reasons, perhaps among the best reasons.
- the weaponizing the echo chamber
- ads tied to very private searches you've run (imagine pulling up a youtube video for a friend to watch and getting served a 15 sec pre-roll ad about boner pills or an embarrassing fetish.

I'd very much add to that:
- government overreach - I generally trust our government, but also I mentioned what I think is a misuse of private data by the DHS earlier in this thread and also the idea that if one dark day we had a truly awful event or turn for the worse, this data could easily be seized and used against us to create a hyper efficient sorting mechanism.
- hacks. imagine if you were a subscriber to ashleymadison.com when its user list got hacked. That would have a real negative real-life consequence, as would publicly revealing every post I've ever liked, FB video I've ever watched, or Whatsapp message I've ever sent. It's naive to think that a company that has noble intentions for your data won't be one day hacked and that data lost to a malicious organization.
 
I work with a ton of very smart tech people and some government agencies the things that are possible when it comes to tech are frightening. Look at it this way if you can imagine it someone can do it. 30 years ago if you wanted to know how something worked, what a process was etc. you had to go to the place and see it. Now you can just google it or even friend someone on FB. The military has embraced the whole social media thing in part because they think it helps with recruiting and identifying with the younger generations.

Today if you are a company commander in an Infantry basic training unit you MUST post X number of photos on the unit FB page weekly. This way mommy and daddy can see what little Johnny is doing.

The bottom line is bad people will use whatever they can to make money, do criminal acts, espionage, etc.
 
RangerNole said:
The bottom line is bad people will use whatever they can to make money, do criminal acts, espionage, etc.
Click to expand...
True but do you not limit the power of and/or place regulations and compliance requirements on those tools to reduce the likihood and ease of using them for criminal acts, espionage, etc...?

Example: Nuclear bombs can harm a lot of people, so we try our damndest to regulate nuclear material via the IAEA.
 
I wish there was a way that when you deleted your account it would delete all your info off their servers.
 
THIS!

TennNole17 said:
So, for a layman:

Why do I care if Google, FB, Apple collect my data, and use it to give me targeted ads, or whatever?

As Joe Citizen- why do I care? As long as my ex can't see my current posts, and work can't see my posting pictures of playing hookie; what sort of privacy am I giving away?
Click to expand...
 
Nole-4-Life said:
I wish there was a way that when you deleted your account it would delete all your info off their servers.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. I know there is a procedure you can go through to "remove" everything associated with your account. However, Zuckerberg even stated yesterday that he doesn't know how long your info remains on the FB servers AFTER you DELETE it from the page. My guess is they keep it forever, just like Google keeps their data forever.
 
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ReliableOstrich said:
Thing is, most adults/parents don't fully understand how Facebook (or many other tech companies) a) use their data and b) seed their content with ads/information based on that data.

I've long said that Americans need a crash course in political literacy and media literacy, perhaps even more important than that is internet/tech literacy.

I'm not saying everyone should learn to code but everyone should be aware of how the internet works
IS..........
Click to expand...

I think you are overestimating people's willingness to know and understand the world around them. While I agree with you, how many people can do basic repairs / maintenance on their cars? People use technology but really don't care how it works, even if IMO they should. Someone will take care of them/their issues.

GoNolesTX said:
Morning drive show brought up a valid point this morning. The Terms of Use Agreement and how sites are junking these things up knowing that people never read them. The idea they pitched was, if FB or another social media engine pitched "if you'll subscribe for $5-$10/month, you'll see no ads and none of your information goes anywhere but within said network", would you agree to that instead?
Click to expand...

I watched much of yesterday and was going to post but didn't. The Zuck even said to congress (when they held up the user terms) that no, he expects the majority of users do not read the Terms. If it was $10 a month, I would pass on FB. I would start my website back up for sharing images etc with the family.

I was also surprised about how odd and robotic his mannerisms are. Not sure if it was stress the scale of the event, but all the "I am a robot observing you human" memes really came to mind.
 
What's even more apparent is that our congressmen have no idea how technology works either. We spent 5 minutes yesterday with one congressman asking about whatsapp and if something he posted there would trigger an ad. Zuck answered I don't know how many times that not even Facebook or whatsapp have any clue what is there because it's all encrypted. It's apparent he has no clue what encryption means because he just kept asking the same question over and over thinking he was catching Zuck ducking when he'd actually answered.
 
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