Grand Jury Authorizes Charges Against FSU Frat Members

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.

But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!

 

[RTM58]

I would be hesitant to speak in absolutes when discussing US Constitution Law--especially when applied to public schools and universities.

Thanks Buzz Killington.

 

[phideltflg]

I would be hesitant to speak in absolutes when discussing US Constitution Law--especially when applied to public schools and universities.

I'm not an attorney, or a Constitutional expert, so I won't try to argue what is, and is not, Constitutional. What I do know, however, is that the only schools that have been able to ban their entire Greek Community, are private schools, like Colby College. As I understand it, public schools would have a very difficult time doing the same, under Constitutional rights of assembly.

I'll let someone that knows more than I do try to explain how it works.

 

[Fijimn]

I'm not an attorney, or a Constitutional expert, so I won't try to argue what is, and is not, Constitutional. What I do know, however, is that the only schools that have been able to ban their entire Greek Community, are private schools, like Colby College. As I understand it, public schools would have a very difficult time doing the same, under Constitutional rights of assembly.

I'll let someone that knows more than I do try to explain how it works.

I am not familiar with any challenges to a public university banning fraternities (whether the entire system or singular). There have been several "bannings" at public institutions. There is also a question regarding what banning means. Fraternities and other secret organizations have been regulated, punished, expelled, suspended, etc. by public institutions since they were created. I would suggest that the campus police cannot come and arrest members during a fraternity meeting. However, the banning would probably be found constitutional.

 

[Spenser1]

More than likely. However, a kid is dead. There will be a sacrificial lamb.

"Sacrificial lamb?" Implying no one did anything wrong? Hopefully I'm misinterpreting your comment.

 

[Spenser1]

I don't know that there will be a scapegoat/sacrificial lamb like expected. A decent defense attorney will argue that the deceased had an onus of self preservation, or reasonable expectation to maintain his well being. That is to say, the percentages of responsibility might not be as much on the frat as it is on the pledge to not overindulge. He could've stopped anytime. It was his decision to consume the bottle of Wild Turkey. By the time the frat members realized he was dead, it was too late.
Don't mistake my argument though. It is reprehensible what happened. And the frat members should be more respectful in the courthouse.

Doesn't matter whether it was his decision to drink the entire bottle. Hazing does not mean someone put a gun to his head and made him drink it. Some of y'all need to do a bit more research into what hazing actually is. I would be surprised if there is not at least one or two felony convictions coming out of this.

 

[Spenser1]

Oh man...that is a shame. Prayers for those boys. I know they did a bad thing, but this is about to become very real for them and families.

I'm praying for the victim.

 

[Oclawaha]

"Sacrificial lamb?" Implying no one did anything wrong? Hopefully I'm misinterpreting your comment.

As yet no one has been adjudicated guilty of anything. Given that, implying, inferring or otherwise interpreting anyone of doing wrong is subjective.
There are currently nine young men under indictment. Of those lucky contestants it’s quite possible that any number will cooperate and plead. Any number may be acquitted. And then there will be the one(s) that do not for whatever reason fall into the above.
They will be the one(s) most likely for a trip up the river even though they may not be any more or less culpable than any of the others.
More to your question I do believe that there was wrongdoing. Tragically fatal youthful stupidity wrongdoing.
And so, here we are.

 

[phideltflg]

I am not familiar with any challenges to a public university banning fraternities (whether the entire system or singular). There have been several "bannings" at public institutions. There is also a question regarding what banning means. Fraternities and other secret organizations have been regulated, punished, expelled, suspended, etc. by public institutions since they were created. I would suggest that the campus police cannot come and arrest members during a fraternity meeting. However, the banning would probably be found constitutional.

I’m not referring to suspending individual chapters that have been proven to have broken the rules. Certainly that is within the guidelines of the university. I’m referring to banning all Greek organizations, even those that have not been accused of having done anything wrong. Someone above seemed to imply above that outright banning would be an option. I don’t believe that banning without cause would be legal.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

The 9 frat kids have been charged with “hazing.” It carries a maximum 5-year prison sentence. The charges are brought under a relatively new statute.....this suggests to me there was no “real” criminal misconduct in the traditional sense (i.e., not murder, manslaughter, etc.). Whether the prosecutor can make something stick depends on lots of factors that “outsiders,” in particular, cannot currently know or predict.

I continue to hate this entire episode, and my thoughts go out to everyone who was or will be impacted by it. Just a horrible deal all around.

 

[Spenser1]

The 9 frat kids have been charged with “hazing.” It carries a maximum 5-year prison sentence. The charges are brought under a relatively new statute.....this suggests to me there was no “real” criminal misconduct in the traditional sense (i.e., not murder, manslaughter, etc.). Whether the prosecutor can make something stick depends on lots of factors that “outsiders,” in particular, cannot currently know or predict.

I continue to hate this entire episode, and my thoughts go out to everyone who was or will be impacted by it. Just a horrible deal all around.

IMO an involuntary manslaughter charge would be supported by what has been reported so far (of course, what has been reported may or may not be the 'truth.') And then what most likely would have happened would be that the involuntary manslaughter charge(s) would be pled down to something less, like hazing. For those who are not familiar with the law regarding involuntary manslaughter, here's a definition: "culpable negligence as a disregard for human life while engaging in wanton or reckless behavior". IMO one or more of the frat guys could have easily been charged with this as (once again according to published reports, which may or may not be accurate) someone DID die thru someone else's reckless behavior. IMO they got off lucky with only hazing charges.

 

[Random_John]

If this was many years ago and my friends and I are getting hammered while camping for Miami tickets and I drink myself into oblivion and my friends are the ones who bought the beer. Are they guilty?

 

[DFSNOLE]

If this was many years ago and my friends and I are getting hammered while camping for Miami tickets and I drink myself into oblivion and my friends are the ones who bought the beer. Are they guilty?

I think it's more the implication of whether or not they had any implied control over you and your actions. If they had the power to tell you that the only way you would get into the stadium for the game was if you drank yourself stupid and you did, then possibly yes.

 

[AllNoles]

I thought they lease from the University @ Heritage Grove...

Not the school. It’s owned by the Leon County Education Facility Authority. Former client of mine.

 

[Oclawaha]

If this was many years ago and my friends and I are getting hammered while camping for Miami tickets and I drink myself into oblivion and my friends are the ones who bought the beer. Are they guilty?

Depends. Were you of legal age? That is certainly entering into this equation as the young man that died that night was not.

 

[SoddyNole]

Without knowing the specifics of this case to comment on it, I recall very few moments in a frat with members encouraging pledges to get hammered. There was a song we would sometimes sing and you had to drink your beer before it was over but that wasn't too common. No one seemed to abstain from drinking and there were always plenty of volunteers on both sides ready and willing to drink to excess. It wasn't uncommon to see someone passed out during parties both in and outside the frat house. I don't believe it occurred to any of us to go check on them probably because we were on our last leg too. Looking back it is amazing more of us did not face a tragic situation as these people did.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

Without knowing the specifics of this case to comment on it, I recall very few moments in a frat with members encouraging pledges to get hammered. There was a song we would sometimes sing and you had to drink your beer before it was over but that wasn't too common. No one seemed to abstain from drinking and there were always plenty of volunteers on both sides ready and willing to drink to excess. It wasn't uncommon to see someone passed out during parties both in and outside the frat house. I don't believe it occurred to any of us to go check on them probably because we were on our last leg too. Looking back it is amazing more of us did not face a tragic situation as these people did.

Kids, individually, frequently exhibit poor judgment. Add dozens of them together, and the judgment factor frequently hits the lowest common denominator. Add booze or drugs, and it sinks even lower. So, yes, it is a small miracle that horrible things don’t happen more often.