Is it possible to discuss gun control, the issue of mass shootings...

[alaskanseminole]

..., school safety protocols, etc.without bring up politics? It would be nice to discuss some practical measures along with other contributing factors like mental health, societal impact, etc.

As a father of three, I'm looking at this from a safety perspective. I told my daughter last night that if there is an active shooter on her campus, to put her thickest books in her backpack, put it on and run to a corner (with her back out) and head down. She's got to protect her head and torso area. I never thought I'd have to have that kind of conversation. We had inclement weather drills in high school.

 

[ncnole1975]

The "other contributing factors" are the ONLY contributing factors. Figuring out why a kid wants to kill 17 of his peers is much more pressing than how he decided to do it.

 

[seminole97]

“According to a 2002 report by Central Institute of Mental Health for the European Union, the number of involuntarily detained mental patients, per 100,000 people, in other countries looks like this:

-- Austria, 175

-- Finland, 218

-- Germany, 175

-- Sweden, 114

-- England, 93

The absolute maximum number of mental patients per 100,000 people who could possibly be institutionalized by the state in the U.S. -- voluntarily or involuntarily -- is: 17.

Yes, according to the Treatment Advocacy Center, there are a grand total of 17 psychiatric beds even available, not necessarily being used.

In 1955, there were 340.”

 

[alaskanseminole]

The "other contributing factors" are the ONLY contributing factors. Figuring out why a kid wants to kill 17 of his peers is much more pressing than how he decided to do it.

I think that is a solid point. I look back to the early 90's in Central Florida and often times I brought a shotgun and rifle to school in my gun rack with a few boxes of ammo in the glove box. I never thought twice about it. At home, I had a 30-30 Winchester rifle above my closet door and a loaded 20 gauge leaned up against the wall next to my bed. I needed quick access to the shot gun for when my mom would scream "SNAKE" in the back yard (I lived in the sticks). From what I've read, gun ownership per person has decreased, but these mass shootings have continued to rise.

I'm interested in finding the root cause, but I realize it's going to take time to research the cause(s) and make changes to cause a significant impact. So, what do we do in the mean time? Do raise the limit on gun purchases to 21 across the board? Implement 14-day waiting periods? Increase school security measures (barricading options, controlled access, etc.)? What are the realistic options? Switzerland is second to us in gun ownership with much more stringent gun control measures. They've had 2 mass shootings in 20 years.

 

[alaskanseminole]

For the record, I think these discussions are important and we CAN do something to foster change. I've been emailing my state's representatives to open up a dialog...been reaching out to both political parties from a neutral standpoint.

 

[ncnole1975]

I think that is a solid point. I look back to the early 90's in Central Florida and often times I brought a shotgun and rifle to school in my gun rack with a few boxes of ammo in the glove box. I never thought twice about it. At home, I had a 30-30 Winchester rifle above my closet door and a loaded 20 gauge leaned up against the wall next to my bed. I needed quick access to the shot gun for when my mom would scream "SNAKE" in the back yard (I lived in the sticks). From what I've read, gun ownership per person has decreased, but these mass shootings have continued to rise.

I'm interested in finding the root cause, but I realize it's going to take time to research the cause(s) and make changes to cause a significant impact. So, what do we do in the mean time? Do raise the limit on gun purchases to 21 across the board? Implement 14-day waiting periods? Increase school security measures (barricading options, controlled access, etc.)? What are the realistic options? Switzerland is second to us in gun ownership with much more stringent gun control measures. They've had 2 mass shootings in 20 years.

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Same at my school in the panhandle. We had no less than 200-300 guns on campus every day and no one ever even threatened to go to their car and get one!! I think a lot of it catering to feelings over safety and Hollywood violence in movies and more importantly, video games.

I also don't think raising the age limits will help. Hell the Sandy Hook kid has his own mother buy his weapons for him. I also don't think most criminals buy legally registered weapons that can be tracked.
Today's youth just doesn't value life (theirs or others) the way we did growing up. I know there are plenty of great kids who do, but as a society, that number has gone down immensely.

 

[GoNolesTX]

Checked out the side effects of the most commonly prescribed ADD/ADHD medications. Irritability, mood swings at the top of the list. The fact that is there are millions of kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD... or what we referred to as "being kids" back in the day. As of 2011, 11% of kids were diagnosed and given medication to settle them down. Coupled with the prevalence of social media and that irrationality, I think we're seeing the effects of some kind of greediness on the parts of big pharma.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Same at my school in the panhandle. We had no less than 200-300 guns on campus every day and no one ever even threatened to go to their car and get one!! I think a lot of it catering to feelings over safety and Hollywood violence in movies and more importantly, video games.

- My video games consisted of Pitfall, Spaced Invaders, and Pac Man
- My movies were Goonies, ET, Top Gun & Star Wars
- My activities were go out with my friends until my mom rang the dinner cow bell

 

[ncnole1975]

Checked out the side effects of the most commonly prescribed ADD/ADHD medications. Irritability, mood swings at the top of the list. The fact that is there are millions of kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD... or what we referred to as "being kids" back in the day. As of 2011, 11% of kids were diagnosed and given medication to settle them down. Coupled with the prevalence of social media and that irrationality, I think we're seeing the effects of some kind of greediness on the parts of big pharma.

This is a very good point. Also brought on by the catering attitude I mentioned. No one wants to tell someone they are a lazy parent and need to control their kid so we blame it on a new disease and medicate for it. Pure laziness on the system and the parents

 

[KitingHigh]

It's pretty much impossible to discuss this without politics.

But to answer the OP.

It seems to me and I've read it recently as well, the big mistake people make in these mass shootings it to attempt to hide or cower in a corner or under a desk. Run like heck and get out of there.

It probably doesn't help though that in recent years schools have been designed more like prisons and have fewer entrances and exits and more dead ends. This has the opposite of the desired effect in an active shooter situation as there are less options for escape. My kids school has but five entrances and two are pad locked at all times, two are only open at the beginning and end of the day and only one, which goes through the office and requires someone to buzz you in, operates throughout the day. The classrooms themselves are organized like cloverleafs so each group of four classes only has one way out to the common area. This setup works good for a fire drill, as long as the fire isn't blocking an exit, but is horrible for an active shooter situation.

In contrast, my schools growing up had at least two and usually four options to run from anywhere. Had a shooter come in, everyone would have had a lot more options.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Checked out the side effects of the most commonly prescribed ADD/ADHD medications. Irritability, mood swings at the top of the list. The fact that is there are millions of kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD... or what we referred to as "being kids" back in the day. As of 2011, 11% of kids were diagnosed and given medication to settle them down. Coupled with the prevalence of social media and that irrationality, I think we're seeing the effects of some kind of greediness on the parts of big pharma.

Well, crap. My kiddo has ADHD and SPD....he's about to turn 5 and we are seeking out some kind of medication to help calm him before kinder starts in the fall. Now, ya got me worried about that.

We're trying to manage it without meds...even tried Varian (https://vayadirect.com/product/vayarin/) We don't allow him more than an hour of TV or so per day (which is 99% of the time is BBC earth-related documentaries He loves them...not really into cartoons). He does not play video games, have an iPad, etc. We're literally raising him with crayons, paper, and outdoor time. However, it's just not working and my wife is an educator and is worried about him being labeled a disciplinary problem.

 

[alaskanseminole]

This is a very good point. Also brought on by the catering attitude I mentioned. No one wants to tell someone they are a lazy parent and need to control their kid so we blame it on a new disease and medicate for it. Pure laziness on the system and the parents

I typically agree with this sentiment; especially being the husband of a 17-year educator (retired to be a stay-at-home mom). Now, my youngest has these issues and we're trying like hell to manage it (see my other post).

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I think a lot of it catering to feelings over safety and Hollywood violence in movies and more importantly, video games.

I see this written a lot as it appears to be propagated frequently following a massacre, however while it makes sense it's just not true.

Those movies and video games are being watched and played across the globe - without this type of "side effect". There have been studies that show mass shooters are three times less likely to have played violent video games than the average male.

I read a better article about the lack of correlation over the weekend but couldn't find it just now, so this will do in a pinch:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/us/politics/trump-video-games-shootings.html

 

[ncnole1975]

Well, crap. My kiddo has ADHD and SPD....he's about to turn 5 and we are seeking out some kind of medication to help calm him before kinder starts in the fall. Now, ya got me worried about that.

We're trying to manage it without meds...even tried Varian (https://vayadirect.com/product/vayarin/) We don't allow him more than an hour of TV or so per day (which is 99% of the time is BBC earth-related documentaries He loves them...not really into cartoons). He does not play video games, have an iPad, etc. We're literally raising him with crayons, paper, and outdoor time. However, it's just not working and my wife is an educator and is worried about him being labeled a disciplinary problem.

Sorry to hear that- let me be clear on my earlier comment- not all kids on ADHD meds are being medicated due to laziness. I'm fully aware that there are legitimate cases out there that need treatment. I do believe tho, that many parents and doctors take the easy way out and just throw a pill at whatever the issue is. Partly in jest, but partly serious- do you beat the heck out of your kid? My dad did and it seemed to work well.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Sorry to hear that- let me be clear on my earlier comment- not all kids on ADHD meds are being medicated due to laziness. I'm fully aware that there are legitimate cases out there that need treatment. I do believe tho, that many parents and doctors take the easy way out and just throw a pill at whatever the issue is. Partly in jest, but partly serious- do you beat the heck out of your kid? My dad did and it seemed to work well.

We literally try EVERYTHING...old school, new age; everything. Like I said, my wife is a former teacher, so she doesn't put up with crap. She is all about parental accountability. We have tried to "parent the heck" out of this situation, but we're finding he just can't help his behavior. He's extremely gifted (I know, all parent say this), so we know he's smart enough to understand cause/effect...he just can't help his outbursts, constant fidgeting, etc. We're beginning to think the ADHD is worse than the SPD...and everything we've read says we've got to get the ADHD under control before we can even address the SPD.

So, to bring it back around, I don't want to line the pockets of Big Pharmaceutical nor put my kiddo on drugs (especially due to side-effects) and create a potential mass shooter (can't believe I just typed that), but we're running out of options.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I'd say that while we navel gaze, research, and propose solutions for our various mental heath crises, hoping to identify and alter the pathology of a mass shooter, in the meantime we need to do something to limit the damage they can do.

To me that includes:
- a re-institution now lapsed 1994 Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, which resulted in a 43% reduction in mass shootings.
- limitation of magazine capacity, at least give someone the chance to tackle a shooter while they reload
- create national standards for entry into NICS database with stronger institutional penalties for failure to comply
- broaden authority of law enforcement and mental health professionals to flag unstable individuals to prevent from buying guns, integrate with NICS to make available nationally
- close all private sale loopholes, background checks are a must for all purchases/sales
- require permit/license/training before purchasing, registration of firearms, re-certification of license and registration every 2-3 years
- new licenses require 48 hr waiting period
- use data and algorithms to predicatively screen for buyers with irregular purchase habits
- ban homemade / aftermarket enhancements like bumpstocks and silencers that have substantive effect on how the gun operates

Other countries have had problems like ours and through legislation, seen a significant reduction in incidents. We should eagerly and diligently study what they did that worked and apply it as applicable here in the States.

 

[alaskanseminole]

I'd say that while we navel gaze, research, and propose solutions for our various mental heath crises, hoping to identify and alter the pathology of a mass shooter, in the meantime we need to do something to limit the damage they can do.

To me that includes:
- a re-institution now lapsed 1994 Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, which resulted in a 43% reduction in mass shootings.
- limitation of magazine capacity, at least give someone the chance to tackle a shooter while they reload
- create national standards for entry into NICS database with stronger institutional penalties for failure to comply
- broaden authority of law enforcement and mental health professionals to flag unstable individuals to prevent from buying guns, integrate with NICS to make available nationally
- close all private sale loopholes, background checks are a must for all purchases/sales
- require 48 hr waiting period for all gun purchases
- require permit/license before purchasing, registration of firearms, re-certification of license and registration every 2-3 years

Other countries have had problems like ours and through legislation, seen a significant reduction in incidents. We should eagerly and diligently study what they did that worked and apply it as applicable here in the States.

I think these are reasonable changes. Heck, my own father shouldn't have weapons due to mental health, but nothing was ever done to prevent him. Fortunately, he took it upon himself to realize this and turned them all over to me...which is another loophole. There is zero record of that transfer of ownership. I have a bunch of rifles and shotguns that no one knows about.

 

[GoNolesTX]

My kiddo has ADHD and SPD.

I have a really good friend who's daughter has SPD. I haven't asked too much about the details just because we're all enjoying the pleasant turn of events, but they swear that the chiropractor is what's turned it around. The kiddo still has bouts and fits but they've been WAY tamed down.

 

[alaskanseminole]

I have a really good friend who's daughter has SPD. I haven't asked too much about the details just because we're all enjoying the pleasant turn of events, but they swear that the chiropractor is what's turned it around. The kiddo still has bouts and fits but they've been WAY tamed down.

Interesting...I'd be curious to know the sub-category. My boy is on the sensory craving side...does not respect personal space...constantly bumping into his peers, getting in their faces, touching, etc. He has a weighted vest and lap pad that does help, though.

 

[GoNolesTX]

Interesting...I'd be curious to know the sub-category. My boy is on the sensory craving side...does not respect personal space...constantly bumping into his peers, getting in their faces, touching, etc. He has a weighted vest and lap pad that does help, though.

I can definitely ask, but I know that she had different reactions to different colors and vibrancy on the spectrum and a SEVER tactile reaction - she refuses to wear pants or shorts or tennis shoes because the cotton sets her off. (she's 7 folks and essentially my niece, not going there)

 

[alaskanseminole]

I can definitely ask, but I know that she had different reactions to different colors and vibrancy on the spectrum and a SEVER tactile reaction - she refuses to wear pants or shorts or tennis shoes because the cotton sets her off. (she's 7 folks and essentially my niece, not going there)

She's on the opposite end of the spectrum, then. She's a sensory avoider (which, IMO, is MUCH harder to manage than a craver).

 

[NDallasRuss]

I told my daughter last night that if there is an active shooter on her campus, to put her thickest books in her backpack, put it on and run to a corner (with her back out) and head down. She's got to protect her head and torso area.

Here - this is better than thick books:

http://www.bulletblocker.com/bulletproof-backpack-panel-large.html

Just have to figure out the dimensions of the inside of the backpack.

"Tested to the NIJ IIIA standards stopping a 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 9mm, .45 caliber hollow point ammunition and more."

 

[alaskanseminole]

Here - this is better than thick books:

http://www.bulletblocker.com/bulletproof-backpack-panel-large.html

Just have to figure out the dimensions of the inside of the backpack.

"Tested to the NIJ IIIA standards stopping a 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 9mm, .45 caliber hollow point ammunition and more."

Great tip...sad it's even a discussion point.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Here - this is better than thick books:

http://www.bulletblocker.com/bulletproof-backpack-panel-large.html

Just have to figure out the dimensions of the inside of the backpack.

"Tested to the NIJ IIIA standards stopping a 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 9mm, .45 caliber hollow point ammunition and more."

Maybe we can ask the NRA to provide 5 to schools for every semi-automatic purchased.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

To me, regardless of if you're a gun owner or not, we have a common interest in keeping guns out of the hands of unsafe people, especially guns that allow them to hurt others most efficiently.

There's no perfect solution, nothing from gun control to mental health cures will achieve 100% success, but we have within reasonable reach the ability to reduce these acts by at least double-digit %s. It would be crazy not to try.

 

[NDallasRuss]

Great tip...sad it's even a discussion point.

Yeah, I know. Still, better to have the discussion and at least she knows what to do just in case.

We've had similar discussions with our daughter. Run --> Hide --> Fight

Way different than the fire and tornado drills I grew up with.

 

[BelemNole]

This is from 1904:
"Never has youth been exposed to such dangers of both perversion and arrest as in our own land and day. Increasing urban life with its temptations, prematurities, sedentary occupations, and passive stimuli just when an active life is most needed, early emancipation and a lessening sense for both duty and discipline, the haste to know and do all befitting man's estate before its time, the mad rush for sudden wealth and the reckless fashions set by its gilded youth--all these lack some of the regulatives they still have in older lands with more conservative conditions."
Also... Socrates... yup, that Socrates...
“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

Kids are kids.
Yes, we do a lousy job with mental health care in this country, but we seem to be determined to stick with our health system.
The biggest difference is easy access to effective killing weaponry.
You all talk about having guns as kids - my school was taken over by a kid in '83. He had a shotgun. Other than damaging some lockers we were fine. Who knows what could have happened if he had a small arsenal instead.

 

[seminole97]

- ban homemade / aftermarket enhancements like bumpstocks and silencers that have substantive effect on how the gun operates

Now, I read all that and have to ask, are you pro-tinnitus, or just in the pocket of Big Hearing Protection?

 

[KitingHigh]

To me, regardless of if you're a gun owner or not, we have a common interest in keeping guns out of the hands of unsafe people, especially guns that allow them to hurt others most efficiently.

There's no perfect solution, nothing from gun control to mental health cures will achieve 100% success, but we have within reasonable reach the ability to reduce these acts by at least double-digit %s. It would be crazy not to try.

The problem is that these solutions should not take away anyone's rights without due process. It's more important to preserve freedom than it is to try and prevent every possible tragedy. We also have to be realistic in what the government does when given a little power. It's abused greatly.

There were heros in that school. Kids teachers and coaches acted heroically. Unfortunately the officer on duty there acted cowardly as did the first officers to arrive on scene. We should allow teachers and coaches to be armed if the are so qualified. Not require it, but allow it. We also shouldn't design schools like prisons, with little or no escape options.

You cannot prevent all tragedy, giving up our freedom that made this country great isn't good option. Allowing people to protect themselves and others is the right thing to do.

 

[ncnole1975]

Speaking of school design, there are so many places in this country that you could never breach with a gun. Shouldn't schools be on that list? Why not automate the doors of every classroom to where, with a push of a button, they can not be breached? There are so many things we can do in schools that aren't being done that may not save every life, but they would save a lot more

 

[TennNole17]

I don't think it can really be discussed without people resorting to figurative "lines in the sand" that are either pro/anti gun/AR-15 arguments or political segregation.

Having said that, I have no clue what's causing this, how to solve it, or how to slow it down. I really enjoy reading people's thought out responses to it though, and think if more people just listened and drew from varying opinions, something could be done.

 

[FSUTribe76]

I see this written a lot as it appears to be propagated frequently following a massacre, however while it makes sense it's just not true.

Those movies and video games are being watched and played across the globe - without this type of "side effect". There have been studies that show mass shooters are three times less likely to have played violent video games than the average male.

I read a better article about the lack of correlation over the weekend but couldn't find it just now, so this will do in a pinch:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/us/politics/trump-video-games-shootings.html

Exactly. Germany and Japan have media and video games as violent (or even more so in most cases) yet both have astronomically smaller numbers of school shooting deaths. And that’s for one reason and one reason only, our easy access to not only weapons but weapons designed solely to create mass casualties.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Kids are kids.
Yes, we do a lousy job with mental health care in this country, but we seem to be determined to stick with our health system.
The biggest difference is easy access to effective killing weaponry.
You all talk about having guns as kids - my school was taken over by a kid in '83. He had a shotgun. Other than damaging some lockers we were fine. Who knows what could have happened if he had a small arsenal instead.

I realize each generations says it's getting worse, but maybe they are saying that because it's true. Not sure about the "access to small arsenal". Could you elaborate? A semi-automatic MAK-90 was used in a 1994 shooting and an AK-47 was used in a 1997 shooting; however, it looks like the majority of these mass shootings were committed with handguns; 9mm & .45.

http://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, just not convinced "kids are kids"...I think its a combination of access and mental health (which is attributed to today's culture).

 

[BelemNole]

I have a clue... we're like an addict who refuses to admit they have a problem. Until we do nothing will get better.

American make up less than 5 percent of the world's population, yet own roughly 42 percent of all the world's privately held firearms.

 

[alaskanseminole]

I don't think it can really be discussed without people resorting to figurative "lines in the sand" that are either pro/anti gun/AR-15 arguments or political segregation..

While that's typically true, it's all the more reason we MUST have the discussion without the political jargon; i.e. the left, "BAN ALL GUNS" vs the right, "GUNS DON'T KILL, PEOPLE KILL". I'd venture to say, most of us are more moderate.

Me personally, I hold a concealed carry permit, own several guns, and support the 2nd Amendment. I also, support some form of gun control and recognize that when the 2nd Amendment was written we had muzzle loaders. I'm a huge proponent of open dialog and despise lines in the sand mentality, this isn't a black or white issue. It's VERY gray.

 

[alaskanseminole]

I have a clue... we're like an addict who refuses to admit they have a problem. Until we do nothing will get better.

American make up less than 5 percent of the world's population, yet own roughly 42 percent of all the world's privately held firearms.

I've mentioned Switzerland's gun control measures on a number of occasions. I think we could benefit from adopting a lot of them. They love them some guns and have only had like 2 mass shootings in 20 years.

 

[BelemNole]

I realize each generations says it's getting worse, but maybe they are saying that because it's true. Not sure about the "access to small arsenal". Could you elaborate? A semi-automatic MAK-90 was used in a 1994 shooting and an AK-47 was used in a 1997 shooting; however, it looks like the majority of these mass shootings were committed with handguns; 9mm & .45.

http://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, just not convinced "kids are kids"...I think its a combination of access and mental health (which is attributed to today's culture).

If each generation since Socrates was getting worse I'm pretty sure wedwbe hitting each other with clubs, not discussing kids access to military harware over the internet.

You want to parse guns in each incident, I think that's pointless. Look at the trends. Even the handguns you mentioned are more efficient killing machines than what people had in the 80s. If a family had a handgun in the house it was a revolver. If it was a rifle it was at action.

People sugar coat the past. Like I said, my school was taken over by a "crazy kid" in the 80s. Kids were doing drugs and drinking back then too. Girl in my 8th grade class was pregnant. Kids are kids.

 

[alaskanseminole]

If each generation since Socrates was getting worse I'm pretty sure wedwbe hitting each other with clubs, not discussing kids access to military harware over the internet.

You want to parse guns in each incident, I think that's pointless. Look at the trends. Even the handguns you mentioned are more efficient killing machines than what people had in the 80s. If a family had a handgun in the house it was a revolver. If it was a rifle it was at action.

People sugar coat the past. Like I said, my school was taken over by a "crazy kid" in the 80s. Kids were doing drugs and drinking back then too. Girl in my 8th grade class was pregnant. Kids are kids.

So, honest question...what has changed from the 70's, 80's, 90's with regards to guns and schools. It's no exaggeration I would bring my hunting guns/gear to school on a Friday for a weekend hunting trip? Is it our own self-induced paranoia...similar to bikes and kid's helmets? I never wore a helmet as a kid and now if my kid were to go without one I'd be looking over my shoulder for CPS.

These are sincere questions (that I don't necessarily expect you to have the answer to)...something is different. What the heck is it?

 

[seminole97]

Exactly. Germany and Japan have media and video games as violent...

I remember seeing a Newsweek piece about EU harmonization. One of the mentions was that Germans could get their driver’s license somewhere that had an easier test.
Not only was the German test difficult and expensive, if you failed it twice you had to get a psych evaluation before making a third attempt.

 

[BelemNole]

So, honest question...what has changed from the 70's, 80's, 90's with regards to guns and schools. It's no exaggeration I would bring my hunting guns/gear to school on a Friday for a weekend hunting trip? Is it our own self-induced paranoia...similar to bikes and kid's helmets? I never wore a helmet as a kid and now if my kid were to go without one I'd be looking over my shoulder for CPS.

These are sincere questions (that I don't necessarily expect you to have the answer to)...something is different. What the heck is it?

I don't believe it's any single thing, but I believe that the body counts have gone up dramatically because of the weaponry. A bullied kid in the past with a revolver has just 6 shots and likely sought out the bully. Now there are dozens to hundreds of rounds being fired before anyone can respond.

Ignoring the elephant in the room (the insane number of guns and easy access to more) doesn't move us forward. There is no fix without addressing that. Up until now we've been willing to accept the cost. Odds are we will continue to.