Maybe folks need to think about where they live....

[ohio#1nolefan]

So the question is, do you build infrastucture to deal with storms, or do you continually rebuild it. Which is more affordable and less hectic?

Corvallis has to worry about mega-earthquakes and resultant tsunamis. Not as frequent, but will certainly be worse.

Underground power should be standard by now. Bitching about the cost is saving pennies now in lieu of dollars in the future. You all make fun of taxes in CA but I can't recall seeing above ground power lines anywhere.

Anaheim,California added a 4% surcharge to gradually bury theirs, at a cost of $3 million/mile. Oh...the project to bury those lines, will take an estimated 50 years to complete.So does one go with that plan and hope that in 50 years when it's complete, it won't be outdated?
BTW- there is roughly 210,000 miles of overhead electric lines in CA

1) The cost to convert existing to ug would be astronomical. Ug cable is up to 10x the price of overhead wire. It is 2 totally different cables. Not to mention if it is getting put in conduit, which is expensive.

2)It is much easier/faster/economical to set a new pole or hang new wire as compared to having to dig up someones yard to fix a faulted ug cable.We just spent 12 hours chasing faulted ug cable through a residential area, digging up 4 different yards repairing one fault and it being faulted in another spot and so on.Total of 4 faults in the 20 year old ug wire. We have to pay for the landscapers to repair everything, deal with irate customers because their yard is tore up and if their yard has a fence we typically either tear part of it down or take it apart to get equipment in there so then that results in having to put new fence up and so on. On several occasions we had to destroy part of a fence. We offered to put up a new section. The customer would not accept that because their fence was old and weathered, therefore the new section wouldn't match. We had to buy an entire fence for their property.

3) Installing it can be extremely time consuming. If it is being put in continuous conduit that will need bored in. We just had a boring company spend 2 weeks on1 run where in good terrain it would take 2 days. The area was nothing but underground boulders. The price to bore through rocks can be about 5x more as regular terrain.

Those are just a handful of examples and reasons as to why it's not completely being buried. I didn't even mention the logistics of all the switches and transformers. Overhead lines have more than the line and a transformer. There are switches, reclosers, sectionalizers and other equipment that comes into play. Those lines can be tied together at certain points, if need be, to prevent outages if maintenance is being done or if a piece of equipment fails.
There is a lot more to the way electric is delivered than meets the eye.
Don't get me wrong, NEW housing developments typically are going to be ug because it is generally obstruction free and much quicker and easier to do.

 

[FSUFrank]

In the past FPL has sent crews up to the Carolinas for both Hurricanes and Winter Storm recoveries as well as up north for Sandy and winter storms.

The winter storms do not do nearly as much damage as hurricanes to the transformers or lines though. Mostly just frozen lines snapping

 

[billanole]

I did not do very well in the OP as I tried to include a post in the Irma thread. My thought in this thread was to get folks thinking about what continues to happen in vulnerable areas and to start a conversation about the results/costs of the events.
I am linking a story about back to back floods near my home. Many homes and businesses were offered buyouts, since rebuilding in the same locale was risky. This has resulted in green spaces that are beneficial to all and able to absorb flood waters with out damage to real properties.
This also has resulted in one town, Canton, having a space that is used for town events including the longest running Labor Day Parade/celebration in the country to be held in a space that at other times of the year is flood prone.
Those who live in flood prone areas should be subject to higher costs of protection,. Sorry, I wish it was not needed.

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/...ces-ivan-impact-lingers-years-later/15217637/

 

[billanole]

Anaheim,California added a 4% surcharge to gradually bury theirs, at a cost of $3 million/mile. Oh...the project to bury those lines, will take an estimated 50 years to complete.So does one go with that plan and hope that in 50 years when it's complete, it won't be outdated?
BTW- there is roughly 210,000 miles of overhead electric lines in CA

1) The cost to convert existing to ug would be astronomical. Ug cable is up to 10x the price of overhead wire. It is 2 totally different cables. Not to mention if it is getting put in conduit, which is expensive.

2)It is much easier/faster/economical to set a new pole or hang new wire as compared to having to dig up someones yard to fix a faulted ug cable.We just spent 12 hours chasing faulted ug cable through a residential area, digging up 4 different yards repairing one fault and it being faulted in another spot and so on.Total of 4 faults in the 20 year old ug wire. We have to pay for the landscapers to repair everything, deal with irate customers because their yard is tore up and if their yard has a fence we typically either tear part of it down or take it apart to get equipment in there so then that results in having to put new fence up and so on. On several occasions we had to destroy part of a fence. We offered to put up a new section. The customer would not accept that because their fence was old and weathered, therefore the new section wouldn't match. We had to buy an entire fence for their property.

3) Installing it can be extremely time consuming. If it is being put in continuous conduit that will need bored in. We just had a boring company spend 2 weeks on1 run where in good terrain it would take 2 days. The area was nothing but underground boulders. The price to bore through rocks can be about 5x more as regular terrain.

Those are just a handful of examples and reasons as to why it's not completely being buried. I didn't even mention the logistics of all the switches and transformers. Overhead lines have more than the line and a transformer. There are switches, reclosers, sectionalizers and other equipment that comes into play. Those lines can be tied together at certain points, if need be, to prevent outages if maintenance is being done or if a piece of equipment fails.
There is a lot more to the way electric is delivered than meets the eye.
Don't get me wrong, NEW housing developments typically are going to be ug because it is generally obstruction free and much quicker and easier to do.

I agree with your premise, but how many times of rebuilding over head power lines does it take to equal underground... and are those dealing with outages willing to pay for accelerating the underground shift?

 

[DFSNOLE]

I agree with your premise, but how many times of rebuilding over head power lines does it take to equal underground... and are those dealing with outages willing to pay for accelerating the underground shift?

You'll find people are only willing to bear those cost while they're being inconvenienced.

 

[Scalphunter]

For what it's worth my hometown of Winter Park, FL is burying all of their power lines now. If the taxpayers want it and are willing to pay for it, why not do it. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...underground-power-lines-utilities-underground

 

[Mugsy101]

For what it's worth my hometown of Winter Park, FL is burying all of their power lines now. If the taxpayers want it and are willing to pay for it, why not do it. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...underground-power-lines-utilities-underground

So here are my questions:

Does this come with any type of guarantees of less outages?
Does it come with shorter outages?
Will power be returned sooner?
What's the advantage?

So what becomes an issue is exactly what many have complained about, affluent neighborhoods will get their power on sooner at the expense of others, even if they have paid for that service.

 

[littleitch1]

I live in a subdivision that has underground electric

My whole development had power during and after the storm

There were three streets that did not

Mine was one of them

Come to find out those three streets are on another grid, which has overhead power lines

How screwed up is that?

You buy a house thinking wow it has underground electric so it's more asthetic looking AND the chances of maintaining power during storms has to increase right

Not if it's linked to a grid with overhead lines

 

[SeaPA]

I agree with your premise, but how many times of rebuilding over head power lines does it take to equal underground... and are those dealing with outages willing to pay for accelerating the underground shift?

I'm 54; this is the first time in my lifetime that I've been affected by widespread damage to the power grid, and it lasted for a whopping three days. I'm not sure how much I'm willing to spend to prevent 3 days of inconvenience (and that's all it was - inconvenience, not harm) out of the almost 20,000 days I've spent on earth.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I think the bigger question here is how will the increasing frequency and intensity of these storms impact macro population trends?

NOLA hasn't been the same since Katrina as many have been leery to move back to a city that could very well have the same problems yet again.

The may very well be the case for flood prone areas of Houston, Jax, and even more immediately the Caribbean islands.

After the onslaught of storms this year, including the new one brewing, will these islands rebuild (do they have the money / will the IMF / World Bank / UN cover the gap)? From a commercial standpoint many of these islands survive on tourism, but will the Starwoods of the world rebuild or invest in new properties there when it's clear these storms are occurring more frequently? We could be watching the beginning of the end of several Caribbean nations before our eyes.

 

[LT4PLY]

Florida sends crews all the time to places all over. This article sums it up pretty well. Sending the crews actually helps with local power companies budgets because it gets guys working for money when the otherwise might be doing nothing.

http://www.publicpower.org/Media/magazine/ArticleDetail.cfm?ItemNumber=34001

The reason why these disasters seem worse is things are more built up now than ever. The storms aren't worse than ever. Gilbert was bad, Allen was bad, Ivan was bad, Opal was bad, etc. Irma doesn't make most of the top 10 lists from a statistical standpoint. It just happened to direct hit some places that haven't seen a direct hit in a long time and it was a category 5.

The same thing goes for any place that doesn't want to have strict building codes. If you want to save now for cheaper build prices you will pay for it later eventually. This is the issue Houston is facing. And in fairness, Tallahassee would face the same thing if we ever get direct hit by a cat 3 or higher.

 

[BelemNole]

Anaheim,California added a 4% surcharge to gradually bury theirs, at a cost of $3 million/mile. Oh...the project to bury those lines, will take an estimated 50 years to complete.So does one go with that plan and hope that in 50 years when it's complete, it won't be outdated?
BTW- there is roughly 210,000 miles of overhead electric lines in CA

1) The cost to convert existing to ug would be astronomical. Ug cable is up to 10x the price of overhead wire. It is 2 totally different cables. Not to mention if it is getting put in conduit, which is expensive.

2)It is much easier/faster/economical to set a new pole or hang new wire as compared to having to dig up someones yard to fix a faulted ug cable.We just spent 12 hours chasing faulted ug cable through a residential area, digging up 4 different yards repairing one fault and it being faulted in another spot and so on.Total of 4 faults in the 20 year old ug wire. We have to pay for the landscapers to repair everything, deal with irate customers because their yard is tore up and if their yard has a fence we typically either tear part of it down or take it apart to get equipment in there so then that results in having to put new fence up and so on. On several occasions we had to destroy part of a fence. We offered to put up a new section. The customer would not accept that because their fence was old and weathered, therefore the new section wouldn't match. We had to buy an entire fence for their property.

3) Installing it can be extremely time consuming. If it is being put in continuous conduit that will need bored in. We just had a boring company spend 2 weeks on1 run where in good terrain it would take 2 days. The area was nothing but underground boulders. The price to bore through rocks can be about 5x more as regular terrain.

Those are just a handful of examples and reasons as to why it's not completely being buried. I didn't even mention the logistics of all the switches and transformers. Overhead lines have more than the line and a transformer. There are switches, reclosers, sectionalizers and other equipment that comes into play. Those lines can be tied together at certain points, if need be, to prevent outages if maintenance is being done or if a piece of equipment fails.
There is a lot more to the way electric is delivered than meets the eye.
Don't get me wrong, NEW housing developments typically are going to be ug because it is generally obstruction free and much quicker and easier to do.

FPL had a PROFIT of 1.7 BILLION last year. Look, if you want power outages every time the wind blows keep defending your current system.
Hey, you probably think it makes perfect sense that people will solar systems aren't allowed to use them during outages too.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-frustrated-with-fpl-after-hurricane-irma-9666311

 

[billanole]

Anaheim,California added a 4% surcharge to gradually bury theirs, at a cost of $3 million/mile. Oh...the project to bury those lines, will take an estimated 50 years to complete.So does one go with that plan and hope that in 50 years when it's complete, it won't be outdated?
BTW- there is roughly 210,000 miles of overhead electric lines in CA

1) The cost to convert existing to ug would be astronomical. Ug cable is up to 10x the price of overhead wire. It is 2 totally different cables. Not to mention if it is getting put in conduit, which is expensive.

2)It is much easier/faster/economical to set a new pole or hang new wire as compared to having to dig up someones yard to fix a faulted ug cable.We just spent 12 hours chasing faulted ug cable through a residential area, digging up 4 different yards repairing one fault and it being faulted in another spot and so on.Total of 4 faults in the 20 year old ug wire. We have to pay for the landscapers to repair everything, deal with irate customers because their yard is tore up and if their yard has a fence we typically either tear part of it down or take it apart to get equipment in there so then that results in having to put new fence up and so on. On several occasions we had to destroy part of a fence. We offered to put up a new section. The customer would not accept that because their fence was old and weathered, therefore the new section wouldn't match. We had to buy an entire fence for their property.

3) Installing it can be extremely time consuming. If it is being put in continuous conduit that will need bored in. We just had a boring company spend 2 weeks on1 run where in good terrain it would take 2 days. The area was nothing but underground boulders. The price to bore through rocks can be about 5x more as regular terrain.

Those are just a handful of examples and reasons as to why it's not completely being buried. I didn't even mention the logistics of all the switches and transformers. Overhead lines have more than the line and a transformer. There are switches, reclosers, sectionalizers and other equipment that comes into play. Those lines can be tied together at certain points, if need be, to prevent outages if maintenance is being done or if a piece of equipment fails.
There is a lot more to the way electric is delivered than meets the eye.
Don't get me wrong, NEW housing developments typically are going to be ug because it is generally obstruction free and much quicker and easier to do.

So, the next storm knocks out the juice and out of state crews help rebuild once again...is that what you said? The chief gets the bonus, the Indians get the overtime, the customer gets the outage. Rinse, repeat.

 

[ohio#1nolefan]

FPL had a PROFIT of 1.7 BILLION last year. Look, if you want power outages every time the wind blows keep defending your current system.
Hey, you probably think it makes perfect sense that people will solar systems aren't allowed to use them during outages too.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-frustrated-with-fpl-after-hurricane-irma-9666311

I'm not necessarily defending the business practice, just telling you reasons as to why more lines aren't buried.
Electric companies are in general, a cash cow. We profited a bit more than FPL. We try to charge customers for major storm restoration. I think that's total bs. What other business is allowed to do that? Sure a store can raise their prices but as a consumer I don't have to buy said product, unlike electric.I can reduce my usage but I'm still going to get charged that extra amount so they can recoup costs.There are many many things with the way utilities seem to be exempt from and able to charge consumers for.
Example- the utility wants to upgrade older equipment. The utility gets approved to add a 'rider' to the bill, which is a temporary add on charge. Why should I have to pay extra so the utility can continue to profit billions? Without upgrading failing equipment the utility is more suspect to outages which means they don't make money. So why the hell do I the consumer, have to pay additional charges so they can provide a more reliable service? Shouldn't the company be responsible for that? When you see that a company profits billions it is very frustrating as a consumer when they keep adding more charges.

 

[Gonolz]

Underground power seems better than above ground, but that has issues too, so why don't we just get into the modern era and upgrade to wireless power?

 

[ohio#1nolefan]

So, the next storm knocks out the juice and out of state crews help rebuild once again...is that what you said? The chief gets the bonus, the Indians get the overtime, the customer gets the outage. Rinse, repeat.

I didn't say that, but that is mostly accurate.
BTW-Utilities are obligated to help other utilities with major storms
We sent close to 1000 of our employees and contractors down there- from Ohio.
There's about 60,000 utility workers from 250 companies down there.

 

[ohio#1nolefan]

So here are my questions:

Does this come with any type of guarantees of less outages?
Does it come with shorter outages?
Will power be returned sooner?
What's the advantage?

So what becomes an issue is exactly what many have complained about, affluent neighborhoods will get their power on sooner at the expense of others, even if they have paid for that service.

There are never guarantees of less outages- just more likely of less outages
Outages can actually be much longer with ug. You can't see the problem where as overhead you can.
Advantages would be aesthetically and weather wouldn't be as much of an issue
Utilities have a template of the order of restoration. Gov't offices, hospitals, fire etc. get 1st priority. From there it would basically be by the quantity.
Let me ask you this, if there are 2 neighborhoods with equal residents and 1 neighborhood has mansions and the other has normal size homes, which would you want to restore 1st?
Business wise, the neighborhood with mansions because they use more electric.
If it's 1 mansion out and 10 houses the 10 houses are getting restored 1st.
Sure there are exceptions but generally utilities will go after what will restore the most people the quickest compared to going around getting a handful here and there.

 

[billanole]

I'm not necessarily defending the business practice, just telling you reasons as to why more lines aren't buried.
Electric companies are in general, a cash cow. We profited a bit more than FPL. We try to charge customers for major storm restoration. I think that's total bs. What other business is allowed to do that? Sure a store can raise their prices but as a consumer I don't have to buy said product, unlike electric.I can reduce my usage but I'm still going to get charged that extra amount so they can recoup costs.There are many many things with the way utilities seem to be exempt from and able to charge consumers for.
Example- the utility wants to upgrade older equipment. The utility gets approved to add a 'rider' to the bill, which is a temporary add on charge. Why should I have to pay extra so the utility can continue to profit billions? Without upgrading failing equipment the utility is more suspect to outages which means they don't make money. So why the hell do I the consumer, have to pay additional charges so they can provide a more reliable service? Shouldn't the company be responsible for that? When you see that a company profits billions it is very frustrating as a consumer when they keep adding more charges.

Great post.

 

[Mugsy101]

There are never guarantees of less outages- just more likely of less outages
Outages can actually be much longer with ug. You can't see the problem where as overhead you can.
Advantages would be aesthetically and weather wouldn't be as much of an issue
Utilities have a template of the order of restoration. Gov't offices, hospitals, fire etc. get 1st priority. From there it would basically be by the quantity.
Let me ask you this, if there are 2 neighborhoods with equal residents and 1 neighborhood has mansions and the other has normal size homes, which would you want to restore 1st?
Business wise, the neighborhood with mansions because they use more electric.
If it's 1 mansion out and 10 houses the 10 houses are getting restored 1st.
Sure there are exceptions but generally utilities will go after what will restore the most people the quickest compared to going around getting a handful here and there.

You missed my point. The response always seems to be lets do something whether or not we can actually quantify it as having real benefit. I live in an area in Clearwater with underground utilities and our power was out 48 hours, just the same as many who didn't have underground utilities.

Placing utilities underground is a want, it is not a need, especially given the enormous costs to install and questionable benefits.

 

[runkpanole]

Governments share a lot of the blame as well. This is a case in point with a Florida city.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/st...oral-gables-been-entirely-honest-its-citizens

 

[ohio#1nolefan]

Governments share a lot of the blame as well. This is a case in point with a Florida city.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/st...oral-gables-been-entirely-honest-its-citizens

We have spent $450 million in tree trimming in the last 7 years and although it is far better than before, it really isn't close to being good.
Here's 1 problem we run into- homeowner doesn't want trees trimmed, raises a big stink, company doesn't want to make more people mad than already are, company doesn't trim trees, wind storm comes and blows limbs down from the trees that homeowner didn't want trimmed, now there are anywhere from a handful to a couple thousand people out of power.. So instead of having 1 homeowner mad we now have up to a couple thousand( for a while anyways)..Makes sense right? not really...
We've had to send tree trimmers with a police escort to trim trees due to homeowners threatening the tree trimmers. That's an extra few hundred dollars a day for the police to be there.
Electric companies are in a tough spot when it comes to tree trimming. They could let it go and risk having even more outages which in turn means lost revenue or pay up and just do it themselves(contractors) which is what we do.

AS far as the city and electric company, they have a lot of give and take behind the scenes. City may look away or push for something to benefit the electric company and in return the electric company allows the city to do stuff that may not be in the best interest of certain parties.
Heck I run into that just from our customer reps allowing large usage businesses to skirt our company guidelines when it comes to vegetation.

 

[Bartdog]

Posted earlier today....
. . .
How often have crews from Texas/Florida gone to Canada, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc... to help after a big storm? Basically never, as those guys handle what nature deals to them...
. . .

866 billanole, Today at 2:52 PM

Well for what it's worth, on the way to Tally Saturday morning, I saw dozens of Jacksonville power line trucks heading west, I assume towards LA.

 

[F4Gary]

We have spent $450 million in tree trimming in the last 7 years and although it is far better than before, it really isn't close to being good.
Here's 1 problem we run into- homeowner doesn't want trees trimmed, raises a big stink, company doesn't want to make more people mad than already are, company doesn't trim trees, wind storm comes and blows limbs down from the trees that homeowner didn't want trimmed, now there are anywhere from a handful to a couple thousand people out of power.. So instead of having 1 homeowner mad we now have up to a couple thousand( for a while anyways)..Makes sense right? not really...
We've had to send tree trimmers with a police escort to trim trees due to homeowners threatening the tree trimmers. That's an extra few hundred dollars a day for the police to be there.
Electric companies are in a tough spot when it comes to tree trimming. They could let it go and risk having even more outages which in turn means lost revenue or pay up and just do it themselves(contractors) which is what we do.

AS far as the city and electric company, they have a lot of give and take behind the scenes. City may look away or push for something to benefit the electric company and in return the electric company allows the city to do stuff that may not be in the best interest of certain parties.
Heck I run into that just from our customer reps allowing large usage businesses to skirt our company guidelines when it comes to vegetation.

Homeowners that plant trees under powerlines should be shot on sight. Or charged to remove said tree. Take your pick.

 

[billanole]

Well for what it's worth, on the way to Tally Saturday morning, I saw dozens of Jacksonville power line trucks heading west, I assume towards LA.

Maybe some could come our way. Thousands of outages around us last night/this a.m.