Mayo Clinic cardiologist shoots down PSU myocarditis numbers

[rowdienole]

My agenda. Glad you mentioned that. My agenda is to keep things as normal(economy) as possible while testing and practicing other measures as suggested by healthcare professionals. I also want to keep the vulnerable safe with social distancing and keep our hospitals from being overburdened.
I also want to "follow the science" as it has been preached about incessantly. And if we follow, we will see thousands of players in countless leagues around the worldcompeting with very little issue. I am not reading about joggers in Central Park dropping dead during their morning jogs or little leagues being shut down due to myocarditis. I have only heard of one case at a BIG10 school and that young man is opting out.
What am I missing?

I agree with pretty much everything you said there, so maybe that’s what you’re missing? All I’ve been saying, really, is that there is much more nuance with what’s going on that people are making it out to be. I feel like too many people (not yourself) are starting with the conclusion that they want to watch college football and reasoning backwards from there. And still others have the inverse agenda they’re accusing me of.

I genuinely just want to make sure we’re doing right by the players. That does intersect with some political stuff, but not the election or any of that. That’s a fiction of people’s conspiratorial minds. The economic effects of what’s happening now aren’t going to be fully felt until well after November. Anyway, I digress. I think we can play ball, relatively safely, but I’m not in favor of fans in the stands. That’s just asking for local outbreaks.

 

[TheRealDonBrasco29]

Didn’t know there were so many Coronabros on the TC.

 

[rowdienole]

I have read that article. If myocarditis is detected (and every student athlete gets a physical checking for this even in non-COVID years) then the guidance should be followed. The 30% number, well that is obviously not set in stone. Even Dr. Sebastianelli is admitting as much.

That’s fair, we are agreed.

 

[nolaholic]

I’m done arguing about this, because regardless of what you or I think about it, ultimately it’s not our health on the line. It’s ultimately up to the players to decide whether they want to risk it. It’s just unfortunate we are putting 18-22 year old young men in the position of making potentially life-altering decisions under a lot of pressure and incentives to play.

I agree with the beginning part but I think these players do the last part anytime they decide to put that helmet on and go play. Their is a much higher probability a player gets a concussion and suffers from CTE than getting ARDS from Covid 19. Either way I am for a free society that lets people choose. I respect any player that feels
It’s in their best interest not to play as much as I respect the decision of those that would prefer to play. Especially if they are so isolated the chances of asymptomatic transmission (which has varied guesses by the scientific community on what that rate is) to people with co morbidity factors is low. We’ll see what happens though.

 

[rowdienole]

Didn’t know there were so many Coronabros on the TC.

Lol right? Don’t they know it went away on its own over the summer?

 

[FSUALLTHEDAMNTIME!]

We’ve had this discussion before I believe. The Mayo people and the B1G medical people are looking at the same information, saying there is uncertainty because it’s a novel virus and the long-term impacts are not known re: myocarditis, or heart damage more generally. One is saying “we don’t know enough to say it’s unsafe, so until we do, it’s fine.” And the other is saying “we don’t know enough to say that it’s certainly safe, so we’re erring on the side of caution.”

If 30% get myocarditis, and the recommendation is that you refrain for three months from physical activity of you get it, then the ~30% of players who get covid and have myocarditis should be sitting out three months. And that’s going to be difficult to pull off, which lends me to believe coaches are going to be hiding things and putting people on the field who probably shouldn’t be. That’s my worry. I don’t think that makes me some sort of “agenda-pushing” radical. It seems hard for many of you to believe but I don’t consider this to be political. It’s about the health of the student-athletes. Which is easy to wave away when you’ve no skin in the game.

Cardiologist I heard talk about it on ESPN weren’t concerned in the least about myocarditis. Which to be obvious is an inflammation. Inflammation can be very mild and generally is unless it’s chronic. So again unless they have severe underlying conditions this really isn’t that big of a concern to this group of people. The sport of football is much, much more dangerous than this virus to them in all likelihood. 5 times as many people in their demo died from the flu last year. None of these kids are going into to this blind, there making a calculation on the risk they are willing to take. Heaven forbid.

 

[JEHseminole]

Lol you’re on about three levels of extrapolation there. Never said anything like that, nor implied it.

Sorry. Had to do it. But your post is a tad over dramatic without the evidence to back it up. You should really looking into the numbers of covid deaths under the age of 25. Also, nothing about the virus has shown any kind of increased threat of myocarditis than any other virus that has been linked to myocarditis including the common cold.

And myocarditis is not a silent killer. If you get it, you feel it. And it is easily treatable. So again, this is getting over blown. The Penn State doctor is already in hot water because he made up his myocarditis numbers and it just got exposed a few hours ago. PSU and the Dr put out a statement backtracking and apologizing.

 

[Timnole]

I agree with pretty much everything you said there, so maybe that’s what you’re missing? All I’ve been saying, really, is that there is much more nuance with what’s going on that people are making it out to be. I feel like too many people (not yourself) are starting with the conclusion that they want to watch college football and reasoning backwards from there. And still others have the inverse agenda they’re accusing me of.

I genuinely just want to make sure we’re doing right by the players. That does intersect with some political stuff, but not the election or any of that. That’s a fiction of people’s conspiratorial minds. The economic effects of what’s happening now aren’t going to be fully felt until well after November. Anyway, I digress. I think we can play ball, relatively safely, but I’m not in favor of fans in the stands. That’s just asking for local outbreaks.

I don't get the fans part. First, they have the same choices as the players. Second, the way it is set-up, it is way safer than the exposure the players have. So trying to understand the players being safe, but fans shouldn't be there.....

 

[rowdienole]

I agree with the beginning part but I think these players do the last part anytime they decide to put that helmet on and go play. Their is a much higher probability a player gets a concussion and suffers from CTE than getting ARDS from Covid 19. Either way I am for a free society that lets people choose. I respect any player that feels
It’s in their best interest not to play as much as I respect the decision of those that would prefer to play. Especially if they are so isolated the chances of asymptomatic transmission (which has varied guesses by the scientific community on what that rate is) to people with co morbidity factors is low. We’ll see what happens though.

It’s a good point about the CTE. There are larger risks the players are making for sure. But the way I think of it is that they’re not mutually exclusive risks; in other words, those risks already exist, and you’re adding this new risk. So it’s making it overall riskier, if only slightly for younger people. Covid’s weird though, it can attack different parts of the body, can cause blood clots, strokes, etc. it’s not yet known how common that is in mild or asymptomatic cases. Could be extremely low and not a big deal. Or it could not. It’s a risk.

And I agree about free people being able to choose for themselves, generally. I’ve just been trying to provide some perspective on that in the sense that individual choices are not made in a vacuum, and just thinking back to myself as a reasonably intelligent freshman at FSU and some of the choices I made that, well, I wouldn’t make today.

Someone here brought up the fact players get an extra year of eligibility, which is true. But I’m pretty sure if you opt out your access to the team, facilities, weight room, etc are limited if not prohibited. I can’t imagine that means you simply pick up where you left off who knows how long later. You’ve not lost eligibility, but it’s kind of like getting an injury and getting a medical redshirt. Might not derail your career, but it’s going to be a struggle to get back to where you were. Or maybe not, what do I know?

 

[rowdienole]

I don't get the fans part. First, they have the same choices as the players. Second, the way it is set-up, it is way safer than the exposure the players have. So trying to understand the players being safe, but fans shouldn't be there.....

Players are being tested, so hopefully nobody is on the field that could spread it to the others. Fans are seated, theoretically, far enough away from each other, and hopefully wearing masks. But, they’re getting up to go to the bathroom, grabbing food I would assume, touching door handles, walking through narrow hallways together, etc. Tough to gather 20,000 in one place and not spread a virus.

 

[Timnole]

Players are being tested, so hopefully nobody is on the field that could spread it to the others. Fans are seated, theoretically, far enough away from each other, and hopefully wearing masks. But, they’re getting up to go to the bathroom, grabbing food I would assume, touching door handles, walking through narrow hallways together, etc. Tough to gather 20,000 in one place and not spread a virus.

You have to wear masks and recent studies show that getting the virus from hard surfaces is extremely remote. The risk among players is every bit as great as the fans with the reduced capacity.

 

[rowdienole]

Cardiologist I heard talk about it on ESPN weren’t concerned in the least about myocarditis. Which to be obvious is an inflammation. Inflammation can be very mild and generally is unless it’s chronic. So again unless they have severe underlying conditions this really isn’t that big of a concern to this group of people. The sport of football is much, much more dangerous than this virus to them in all likelihood. 5 times as many people in their demo died from the flu last year. None of these kids are going into to this blind, there making a calculation on the risk they are willing to take. Heaven forbid.

Okay. Sorry for being concerned about people’s safety during a pandemic that’s killed 200,000 people in this country alone. I will stop expressing concern about myocarditis since it is officially no big deal. Stay safe out there.

 

[rowdienole]

You have to wear masks and recent studies show that getting the virus from hard surfaces is extremely remote. The risk among players is every bit as great as the fans with the reduced capacity.

Ok. We’ll check the Leon county numbers (are they still allowed to test people in Florida?) two weeks after the first home game and see if there’s been a spike in cases.

 

[JEHseminole]

Okay. Sorry for being concerned about people’s safety during a pandemic that’s killed 200,000 people in this country alone. I will stop expressing concern about myocarditis since it is officially no big deal. Stay safe out there.

It isn't about being concerned. You have every right to be concerned as does anyone else. The problem is 2 fold, being overly fearful without accurate information and making broad sweeping decisions on things based solely on fear without proper clarity on the decision making process.

 

[rowdienole]

Are you as bothered with kids across the country being back at school?

Of course. Who wouldn’t be bothered by that? Kids are major spreaders of disease. This whole situation is incredibly bothersome.

 

[Timnole]

Ok. We’ll check the Leon county numbers (are they still allowed to test people in Florida?) two weeks after the first home game and see if there’s been a spike in cases.

Lol. If you think that has to do with the fans at a game vs students I have no idea what to tell you. But I could probably sell you anything you need if you are interested.

 

[JEHseminole]

Of course. Who wouldn’t be bothered by that? Kids are major spreaders of disease. This whole situation is incredibly bothersome.

That's not what the study that you are referring to showed. 1 study showed that kids may have higher virals loads than adults, and primarily it was kids under the age of 5. The study did not determine that kids were more contagious however. Viral loads do not correlate with level of contagiousness. Kids are overwhelmingly asymptomatic. Spread comes more as a result from symptoms i.e. coughing, sneezing, nose running and then touching things etc.

The problem is the general public made a false equivalence between viral load and viral spread.

 

[fsufool]

We’ve had this discussion before I believe. The Mayo people and the B1G medical people are looking at the same information, saying there is uncertainty because it’s a novel virus and the long-term impacts are not known re: myocarditis, or heart damage more generally. One is saying “we don’t know enough to say it’s unsafe, so until we do, it’s fine.” And the other is saying “we don’t know enough to say that it’s certainly safe, so we’re erring on the side of caution.”

If 30% get myocarditis, and the recommendation is that you refrain for three months from physical activity of you get it, then the ~30% of players who get covid and have myocarditis should be sitting out three months. And that’s going to be difficult to pull off, which lends me to believe coaches are going to be hiding things and putting people on the field who probably shouldn’t be. That’s my worry. I don’t think that makes me some sort of “agenda-pushing” radical. It seems hard for many of you to believe but I don’t consider this to be political. It’s about the health of the student-athletes. Which is easy to wave away when you’ve no skin in the game.

Every cardiologist in the world would laugh at the 30% number. We have had millions of people get Covid19, so we have a lot more certainty than you imply. And the Big 10 has never said that myocarditis is the reason they aren't playing........it is just the media speculating. Another made up Covid issue to add to the pile.

 

[Deerfuel2]

I’m done arguing about this, because regardless of what you or I think about it, ultimately it’s not our health on the line. It’s ultimately up to the players to decide whether they want to risk it. It’s just unfortunate we are putting 18-22 year old young men in the position of making potentially life-altering decisions under a lot of pressure and incentives to play.

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

 

[fsufool]

My agenda. Glad you mentioned that. My agenda is to keep things as normal(economy) as possible while testing and practicing other measures as suggested by healthcare professionals. I also want to keep the vulnerable safe with social distancing and keep our hospitals from being overburdened.
I also want to "follow the science" as it has been preached about incessantly. And if we follow, we will see thousands of players in countless leagues around the worldcompeting with very little issue. I am not reading about joggers in Central Park dropping dead during their morning jogs or little leagues being shut down due to myocarditis. I have only heard of one case at a BIG10 school and that young man is opting out.
What am I missing?

You are missing the hysteria........

 

[jbnoles4]

Of course. Who wouldn’t be bothered by that? Kids are major spreaders of disease. This whole situation is incredibly bothersome.

My kids started back at their school this week and it has been great. Their emotional and mental countenance has been sky high. They have enjoyed having social interaction which is healthy. Again, the cure can't be worse than the virus. Depression and suicide is a much greater risk in my opinion. My boys had a Lacrosse team mate that horrifically committed suicide several weeks ago. Just terrible.

 

[F4Gary]

Okay. Sorry for being concerned about people’s safety during a pandemic that’s killed 200,000 people in this country alone. I will stop expressing concern about myocarditis since it is officially no big deal. Stay safe out there.

Stop with the drama queen act. Let fans make their own decisions.

 

[rowdienole]

That's not what the study that you are referring to showed. 1 study showed that kids may have higher virals loads than adults, and primarily it was kids under the age of 5. The study did not determine that kids were more contagious however. Viral loads do not correlate with level of contagiousness. Kids are overwhelmingly asymptomatic. Spread comes more as a result from symptoms i.e. coughing, sneezing, nose running and then touching things etc.

The problem is the general public made a false equivalence between viral load and viral spread.

You misread me. I said kids are a major spreaders of disease. In general. Any disease. That’s incontrovertible. They go to school and swap germs. It’s what they do.

 

[jbnoles4]

Okay. Sorry for being concerned about people’s safety during a pandemic that’s killed 200,000 people in this country alone. I will stop expressing concern about myocarditis since it is officially no big deal. Stay safe out there.

The 200,000 deaths number is misleading. Remember, the CDC came out this week saying 94% of those deaths had at least 2 other underlying conditions that also contributed to their death. So in all likelihood many of those deaths could have happened from many other causes.

New CDC report shows 94% of COVID-19 deaths in US had contributing conditions

 

[Timnole]

You misread me. I said kids are a major spreaders of disease. In general. Any disease. That’s incontrovertible. They go to school and swap germs. It’s what they do.

But yet you think that out of town fans are going to increase the rate of COVID in Leon County. Your argument is all over the place.

 

[ryanpkc]

I love the argument that 18-22 year old college students playing football are risking their lives. That would only be true if instead all of them were living inside a bubble, which is not reality. Every time they shop for food, get their mail, touch a gas nozzle, grab a door handle, etc., they are potentially putting their lives at risk by catching the invisible virus. Let's be honest, college students living on campus are the least likely of any age group to be social distancing with masks on

 

[ChiefWB]

Of course. Who wouldn’t be bothered by that? Kids are major spreaders of disease. This whole situation is incredibly bothersome.

August 3rd, the day public schools opened in Georgia, the state was averaging 3500 cases per day. Over 4 weeks later, the state of Georgia is averaging 2031 cases per day.

 

[Andrewff]

I’m done arguing about this, because regardless of what you or I think about it, ultimately it’s not our health on the line. It’s ultimately up to the players to decide whether they want to risk it. It’s just unfortunate we are putting 18-22 year old young men in the position of making potentially life-altering decisions under a lot of pressure and incentives to play.

There is an entire dorm at fsu full of students diagnosed with covid. They didn’t get it playing football or going to class

 

[Deerfuel2]

We’ve had this discussion before I believe. The Mayo people and the B1G medical people are looking at the same information, saying there is uncertainty because it’s a novel virus and the long-term impacts are not known re: myocarditis, or heart damage more generally. One is saying “we don’t know enough to say it’s unsafe, so until we do, it’s fine.” And the other is saying “we don’t know enough to say that it’s certainly safe, so we’re erring on the side of caution.”

If 30% get myocarditis, and the recommendation is that you refrain for three months from physical activity of you get it, then the ~30% of players who get covid and have myocarditis should be sitting out three months. And that’s going to be difficult to pull off, which lends me to believe coaches are going to be hiding things and putting people on the field who probably shouldn’t be. That’s my worry. I don’t think that makes me some sort of “agenda-pushing” radical. It seems hard for many of you to believe but I don’t consider this to be political. It’s about the health of the student-athletes. Which is easy to wave away when you’ve no skin in the game.

Lol... "Not political" and "not an agenda pushing radical"... Lady, you have had all that on display for months. You seem very out of touch. Your poor husband

 

[rowdienole]

My kids started back at their school this week and it has been great. Their emotional and mental countenance has been sky high. They have enjoyed having social interaction which is healthy. Again, the cure can't be worse than the virus. Depression and suicide is a much greater risk in my opinion. My boys had a Lacrosse team mate that horrifically committed suicide several weeks ago. Just terrible.

As someone who suffers from depression, I am not ignorant to the threat of suicide and the impact of all of this on mental health. Suicide costs ~45,000 lives a year in this country. Covid has cost 200,000 in six months, and that’s with the measures we’ve taken. The “cure worse than the disease” stuff just ... it’s a pandemic, for gods sake.

 

[rowdienole]

There is an entire dorm at fsu full of students diagnosed with covid. They didn’t get it playing football or going to class

Thanks for letting me know that. That’s bad...you get that’s a bad thing, right?

 

[nips 9]

As someone who suffers from depression, I am not ignorant to the threat of suicide and the impact of all of this on mental health. Suicide costs ~45,000 lives a year in this country. Covid has cost 200,000 in six months, and that’s with the measures we’ve taken. The “cure worse than the disease” stuff just ... it’s a pandemic, for gods sake.

I truly hope you are managing that.

 

[JRDNole86]

We’ve falling so far as a society that 51% would argue the sky isn’t blue if the wrong party said it was.

Unfortunately, there is probably a lot of truth to this statement.

 

[Sifu Hotman Nole]

Unfortunately, there is probably a lot of truth to this statement.

It is 100% truth.

 

[JRDNole86]

My agenda. Glad you mentioned that. My agenda is to keep things as normal(economy) as possible while testing and practicing other measures as suggested by healthcare professionals. I also want to keep the vulnerable safe with social distancing and keep our hospitals from being overburdened.
I also want to "follow the science" as it has been preached about incessantly. And if we follow, we will see thousands of players in countless leagues around the worldcompeting with very little issue. I am not reading about joggers in Central Park dropping dead during their morning jogs or little leagues being shut down due to myocarditis. I have only heard of one case at a BIG10 school and that young man is opting out.
What am I missing?

As someone who suffers from depression, I am not ignorant to the threat of suicide and the impact of all of this on mental health. Suicide costs ~45,000 lives a year in this country. Covid has cost 200,000 in six months, and that’s with the measures we’ve taken. The “cure worse than the disease” stuff just ... it’s a pandemic, for gods sake.

 

[nips 9]

As someone who suffers from depression, I am not ignorant to the threat of suicide and the impact of all of this on mental health. Suicide costs ~45,000 lives a year in this country. Covid has cost 200,000 in six months, and that’s with the measures we’ve taken. The “cure worse than the disease” stuff just ... it’s a pandemic, for gods sake.

You know the 187K # is exaggerated intentionally, correct? You also know that as comorbidities cause the # of Covid-19 deaths to increase so does the isolation, dispare, and economic destitution on suicide #s.

You also know that not only the direct # of suicides matter, but what is left in the aftermath in the next few years. I am sure you are also aware that when they tally flu deaths, they do it by season, not a rolling and continuous accounting. Lastly, I am sure we can all agree that Covid-19 is being used as a political tool and that is why the #s will always be misrepresented, no?

 

[rion1]

Well, first off, get a room you two. Second, I joined the Army at 18 and knew full well what I was getting into, a strain of flu was never one of my concerns. People forget that these kids are adults. Young adults, sure. But, they are old enough to decide for themselves. Hell of a lot more information available to them now then there was 40yrs ago. Play or opt out, pretty simple.

 

[JRDNole86]

Unfortunately, there are too many people who refuse to acknowledge that this pandemic is serious, for different reasons, such as they

1. Desperately want CFB to be played to matter how many deaths occur,

2. Are more concerned about possible political ramifications of these deaths or the measures taken to prevent or minimize them,

3. Don't understand or care about science,

4. Think the pandemic is a hoax or part of a conspiracy.

You know the 187K # is exaggerated intentionally, correct? You also know that as comorbidities cause the # of Covid-19 deaths to increase so does the isolation, dispare, and economic destitution on suicide #s.

You also know that not only the direct # of suicides matter, but what is left in the aftermath in the next few years. I am sure you are also aware that when they tally flu deaths, they do it by season, not a rolling and continuous accounting. Lastly, I am sure we can all agree that Covid-19 is being used as a political tool and that is why the #s will always be misrepresented, no?
[/QUOT

 

[JRDNole86]

Stop with the drama queen act. Let fans make their own decisions.

The problem with that is the possible effects on other people around those fans. Nobody lives in a vacuum.

 

[CobraEatr]

Are you as bothered with kids across the country being back at school?

Of course he’s bothered by it. He wants us all to stay at home and wait for this to go away.