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Net neutrality

ReliableOstrich

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I'd hope everyone has seen news that the FCC plans to repeal net neutrality rules.

If you haven't please go read up as it will 100% impact you.

My question is this... does anyone support the repeal of net neutrality? Seems to be absolutely negative to everyone that isn't a ISP executive.

What's the case to be made for repealing it?

I'd assume we can do this without getting political. If not mods please feel free to lock/delete.
 
I'd assume we can do this without getting political. If not mods please feel free to lock/delete.

Depends how you want to ascribe political. It’s a government agency responding to rent seeking, govt fostered monopolies.

The case for not having net neutrality is to let pricing (demand) drive investment. Problem with that proposition is that the internet ‘market’ is entangled in previously assigned monopolies and rights of way. The value of Comcast’s investment in infrastructure is more than the buried lines themselves.

The ‘common carrier’ provisions that regulated how the govt fostered phone monopolies managed comm traffic between each other spilled into the internet largely because of how most folks initially accessed it (modems on the existing phone network).

Given the government instituted barriers to entry in this market, I’m under no illusion ‘net neutrality’ will provide free market benefits to consumers.
 
I see certain folks supporting repealing Net Neutrality rules. The overall mantra from people against net neutrality has been :
  • Less regulation is good
  • Less regulation means free market will force competition
  • Less regulation will drive innovation
  • "all the bad people" are supporting net neutrality

That's all I got so far, based on some NN discussions I've had today.

Net neutrality in the US was only 2 years old and lawsuits against net neutrality violators were just beginning. Seems the main beneficiaries will be ISPs.
 
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i don't know a lot about it but suspect it would give ISPs a lot more power and basically turn the Internet into the equivalent of television. You're either with Dish, direct TV, Comcast, etc. - most of it overlaps but there's content you might get with one and not the others.

Seems like when the Internet was just getting going in the early 90s we had Prodigy, Compuserve, aol - who you signed up with largely controlled (or steered you to) the content you could consume. Why would we want to go back to anything remotely close to that?
 
Totally ignorant on what it is.

Basically as it is now, you are not allowed to block or slow down access to individual websites ie everything must be “fair”. Whether you’re Google or FSUTribe’sWorldofWineries.Net, your customers have equal access to your content. If the supporters get what they want, internet providers will be able to slow down or even block access to those smaller sites.

And if you’re a greedy capitalist you might say, “what do I care if a few Mom and Pops have to close up shop so that already profitable monopolies can make more money?” Except it’s more than that. Most internet providers are either telephone companies or cable companies. So your telephone company provider is looking to block your access to Skype, Zoom, Gotomeeting or any other “internet calls” and the cable providers are looking to slow down if not block access to Netflix, Hulu and the like.

Basically what they're is doing is great if you’re a cable company, telecom or other internet provider and terrible for literally everyone else from regular consumers to mom and pop/startup to even Netflix.
 
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How many choices for internet do you all have? 1? 2 at the most. Giving a company like Comcast that power is a terrible idea.
That's the thing, the govt helped create these monopolys or duopolys and now by deregulating them, you enable them to act in pure greed with no free market to encourage competition or innovation.

Add to that that internet access is now basically a necessity of life, like electricity. You need it to get jobs, interact with the govt, obtain competitive and fair consumer pricing. It can't be treated like some nonessential luxury item like cable tv.
 
How many choices for internet do you all have? 1? 2 at the most. Giving a company like Comcast that power is a terrible idea.

Link

Looks like 4 ground choices, depending where you live, and of course the wireless providers.
 
I think ISPs should be able to do whatever they want with their product. It’s my job as a consmer to agree to the terms they give me or not.
 
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Well first, nothing irritates me more than when people use the word "fair," because there is no such thing as fair in this world. And what might be "fair" to one group will almost certainly not be "fair" to another.

The problem as I see it is pretty straight forward, either it's big business control or big government.....pick your poison....and neither is going to be good for everyone.
 
Same with the electric company?
I see this as an apples/oranges wants/needs comparison. People need electricity. People want internet. Besides, I don’t know of anywhere that has multiple electricity options. So, monopolies like electric companies require some degree of regulation to keep them in check.
 
I like the idea of NN and think every consumer should want that...

However, I don't trust nor do I have any confidence that the government can or will ever be able to regulate the "internet".

We have had de facto NN for years no sense in getting the government involved.
 
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I see this as an apples/oranges wants/needs comparison. People need electricity. People want internet. Besides, I don’t know of anywhere that has multiple electricity options. So, monopolies like electric companies require some degree of regulation to keep them in check.
Internet may have at one time been a want but it is no longer. You're being naive to think otherwise.
 
Internet may have at one time been a want but it is no longer. You're being naive to think otherwise.
Not a bit. Is it a convenience? Absolutely. I can’t deny that.? Do I need it as a must-have as part of my life? Not at all. If I had to cut the cord on one of the two right this minute, the decision would be a no/brainer.
 
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I see this as an apples/oranges wants/needs comparison. People need electricity. People want internet.

I see folks living in Alaska without electricity, just seems like a nice thing to have, not an actual 'need'.

Besides, I don’t know of anywhere that has multiple electricity options. So, monopolies like electric companies require some degree of regulation to keep them in check.

Goes back to the regulatory framework in place when these were established.
Federal law in '92 prevented localities from granting cable monopolies afterwards, but cable companies rarely build over one another regardless. One of the reasons they avoid this competition is that regulators frown on buying a competitor.

Hope lies in more wireless developments.
 
Not a bit. Is it a convenience? Absolutely. I can’t deny that.? Do I need it as a must-have as part of my life? Not at all. If I had to cut the cord on one of the two right this minute, the decision would be a no/brainer.

You don't work for home or have a home office where you work remotely?
 
Not a bit. Is it a convenience? Absolutely. I can’t deny that.? Do I need it as a must-have as part of my life? Not at all. If I had to cut the cord on one of the two right this minute, the decision would be a no/brainer.
Just because you don't have a daily need for internet, does not mean that applies to others. Fiji's example is probably the most common.
 
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I see this as an apples/oranges wants/needs comparison. People need electricity. People want internet. Besides, I don’t know of anywhere that has multiple electricity options. So, monopolies like electric companies require some degree of regulation to keep them in check.

IN today's world I think a lot of people need the internet.
 
I'd hope everyone has seen news that the FCC plans to repeal net neutrality rules.

If you haven't please go read up as it will 100% impact you.

My question is this... does anyone support the repeal of net neutrality? Seems to be absolutely negative to everyone that isn't a ISP executive.

What's the case to be made for repealing it?

I'd assume we can do this without getting political. If not mods please feel free to lock/delete.
BacardiNole, that is 100% on-target.
 
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Just because you don't have a daily need for internet, does not mean that applies to others. Fiji's example is probably the most common.

Exactly. Modern business, education, etc is very much entwined with having access to the internet, and getting rid of net neutrality could certainly make that more difficult on people who use the internet daily for those types of things.
 
Not a bit. Is it a convenience? Absolutely. I can’t deny that.? Do I need it as a must-have as part of my life? Not at all. If I had to cut the cord on one of the two right this minute, the decision would be a no/brainer.

I think it is quite a bit deeper than this though. One, I would argue the internet is a need for most people in this day and age, just like a car is a need for most people. Technically, you can obviously argue these arent needs, but in the society and economy we have built, they are absolutely needs for many people.

Secondly, we are also talking about how most information travels in this day and age. And while I certainly have issues with the internet and the impact it has in that regard, going to a system where your provider could essentially decide what sites you could or couldnt receive information can potentially be a dangerous thing.
 
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Turn off the internet and I think the economy collapses in a week.

It probably would. To be fair though, this isnt about turning off the internet but more potentially leading to "premium" type access to many sites or applications that many people use daily.

And while I certainly think this is something we should be concerned with, I dont think it will ever happen. I think once the FCC passes it in December, it will end up in court at first and delayed, and eventually congress would write a law over riding the FCC. I dont think anyone wants this on either side of the political aisle. And with 2018 having mid terms and a lot of seats that used to be considered safe thta are probably going to be quite a bit more competitive, I have my doubts congress would let something like this risk losing them votes.
 
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Electric companies are regulated by the government. Every time they seek a rate increase, the government (usually state) must approve. They bear this burden because of the huge capital investment they need to make in an area and they need some protections from others laying electric lines. The government caps electric utility profit margins..

Will the non-net-neutral companies submit to this? Let google come lay fiber down in every neighborhood and see what happens to their business. They have been protected from this in the past. On the other hand, we have companies launching satellites to provide internet globally.

Comcast and just about every cable provider has the worst customer service ratings in any INDUSTRY. Why, because they can get away with it.

I am generally against it but I admit I don't know how it could possibly benefit me. Several years ago, S Korean had time times the internet bandwidth of the US. Not sure why. Maybe they are just more densely populated.

I don't want Comcast controlling which websites I visit like they control which TV channels I watch.

Who knows?? Maybe rivals.com could be a $5/month option on your package?
 
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Been following it a little; but my son is home from college this weekend and is all into it, of course he is a tech major. He is against it fiercely. I just don't know as I am sure what ever piece of info you get is slanted towards the group who benefits. That has been the problem for a while in the US all news if filtered through the prism of what agenda X group has. I would love it if one day you could go to a site and they would have the pros and cons listed without the bias.
 
I see this as an apples/oranges wants/needs comparison. People need electricity. People want internet. Besides, I don’t know of anywhere that has multiple electricity options. So, monopolies like electric companies require some degree of regulation to keep them in check.
Speak for yourself. I'd be out of a job, my wife would be out of business and the company I work for likely wouldn't survive.
 
I have around 20 to 30 electric companies to chose from. Not sure about internet as I've had Frontier/Verizon for a long time.
You have 20 - 30 electric companies that can supply power to your home? And you get to choose which one you want?
 
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I think it is quite a bit deeper than this though. One, I would argue the internet is a need for most people in this day and age, just like a car is a need for most people. Technically, you can obviously argue these arent needs, but in the society and economy we have built, they are absolutely needs for many people.

Secondly, we are also talking about how most information travels in this day and age. And while I certainly have issues with the internet and the impact it has in that regard, going to a system where your provider could essentially decide what sites you could or couldnt receive information can potentially be a dangerous thing.
It’s this last paragraph that is of the greatest concern, IMO.
 
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Been following it a little; but my son is home from college this weekend and is all into it, of course he is a tech major. He is against it fiercely. I just don't know as I am sure what ever piece of info you get is slanted towards the group who benefits. That has been the problem for a while in the US all news if filtered through the prism of what agenda X group has. I would love it if one day you could go to a site and they would have the pros and cons listed without the bias.

I get the "less government is good" crowd. I understand how that applies in general. With internet service, it's not that simple. This is a hard one to delve into without sounding like resorting to scare tactics, but some of the "threats" are real and have already happened. I'll list examples and sources as best I can for each argument.



Image a situation where your sources can be dictated to you. You want to access a website? Sorry, your ISP is blocking it for whatever reason they want.

The biggest "pro Net Neutrality" issues that I can see are:

  • Censorship: Without NN, ISP's can censor whatever sites they want. News, media, events, etc. We're seeing some services like Facebook blocking certain content from their sites, but can you imagine that on a larger scale and simply being unable to access free information? Imagine how big of an issue this could be in shaping our politics, election time, etc.
  • Lack of consumer options: Consumers will have to switch providers to get access, but with current contract systems for "bundle deals", consumers could get trapped into contracts with ever-changing terms and conditions. Add to that, many markets have limited access to ISP's. I'm not sure why this change from FCC would encourage growth instead of stifling it.
  • Giant corporation mergers and discrimination: We're in a time where we're seeing lots of powerhouses in media and telecommunication merging. Comcast/AT&T are competitors, but are in the process of merging. I'm sure this won't be the last either. We'll start seeing partnerships for streaming services, or possibly even black balling smaller start-up services to push out competition without consumers having a say. This had started happening before Net Neutrality in US began in 2015. It will continue again.



Imagine if lanes on roads simply switched to being privately owned and operated only. You could only take lanes of the roads that you paid for, and lanes that lead to businesses partnered with road management companies got extra lanes, direct routes. Smaller businesses got less lanes, or indirect routes that forced drivers to pass partner businesses. Imagine that happened overnight and the response was just "If you don't like it, join another road service," knowing consumers had little recourse due to extensive cost for building new roads, local constraints for expansion, etc.

There are far too many other hold-ups that would have to be alleviated at a local level to create the free-market environment where Net Neutrality would not entirely be necessary. One day soon, we may not rely entirely on hard-wired ISPs and maybe personal networks will be able to operate independent of larger corporations. Until that happens, we're entirely reliant on existing infrastructure. I'm not sure there will be the breakthroughs needed to make independent networks viable. Add to that, larger corporations can continue to lobby against and use their resources to block such growth or innovation as it threatens their business models.

It's a lot to process, but there's plenty of examples of what happens with Net Neutrality doesn't exist. While relying on government to protect consumer rights is not perfect, it's better than no protection at this point.
 
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It’s this last paragraph that is of the greatest concern, IMO.

it is certainly an issue.

Comcast for example, would likely promote the NBC sites since they have a stake in them. Same for Time Warner who owns CNN and is possibly merging with ATT. And that is just the major news outlets. I am sure they own many smaller companies they would promote as well.
 
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Actually 49, just counted them. They don't own the lines, Oncor owns them. Powertochoose.org.

Texas has their own power grid which is maybe why you have so many options, I am not really sure. But, Most of the us only have one option.
 
I’d imagine gamers would mobilize if their connectivity was throttled.

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