SAE what say you!
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Young, drunk idiots do stupid things. SAE will need to do a very public mea culpa, and institute widespread sensitivity training, charitable work, etc., etc.
The mother ship won't be able to ignore it, or portray OU as a rogue chapter.
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The mother ship won't be able to ignore it, or portray OU as a rogue chapter.
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I am not there to monitor it, but I think everything that goes on in college campuses is a microcosm of society as a whole. Sure, there are some racists in all organizations (including the predominantly minority ones). And you have some folks who are dirtballs, criminals, Sunday school teachers, volunteers and everything else. Can't generalize too broadly.
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1st amendment- kids should not be expelled but it is sad that racism is cool far too often in southern fraternities.
^ the 1st Amendment allows you to say any stupid racist thing you want but doesn't protect you from the consequences of those stupid racist thing you say.
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Yup. 1st amendment is to keep them out of jail, which it has. It doesn't cover frat status, college enrollment, and public humiliation.
Diverse opinions are one of the fundamental roles of public universities. If he attended a private university or was fired from a private sector job I would agree but diverse (even offensive) speech should be protected at our nations public universities.
Most colleges have student conduct guidelines as we've learned lately through the Winston sagas with how schools can protect their image and best interest if students are drawing negative attention to the university.
I don't see any issue with reprimanding the frat with suspension or anything like that, but unless it is directed at an individual or is threatening, I don't think any student should be expelled from a public university for racist comments just because of free speech. I wouldn't expect a group of black students singing racist comments towards white people in the black student union to be expelled either. Maybe suspended, but unless it is directed at an a specific individual, I don't see how you can legally expel them. Private school, they'd probably be gone before the video was uploaded and I'm fine with that too.
I don't see any issue with reprimanding the frat with suspension or anything like that, but unless it is directed at an individual or is threatening, I don't think any student should be expelled from a public university for racist comments just because of free speech. I wouldn't expect a group of black students singing racist comments towards white people in the black student union to be expelled either. Maybe suspended, but unless it is directed at an a specific individual, I don't see how you can legally expel them. Private school, they'd probably be gone before the video was uploaded and I'm fine with that too.
No link? I'm going to go with they didn't do anything wrong because I have no idea what happened because there is no link. At least you provided a couple clues.
I love the posts where it goes something like. "Wow can you believe that?"
On another note, do you agree or disagree with what that guy on ESPN said?
I love the posts where it goes something like. "Wow can you believe that?"
On another note, do you agree or disagree with what that guy on ESPN said?
I will admit that the first thing I thought when I saw the story was 1) please Lord don't let it be FSU and 2) please Lord not our son's fraternity. Sigh of relief on both counts. I think the fraternities at FSU are definitely much more integrated than they were when I went to FSU in the 80s. Except for KA, I would think since their whole 'thing' seems to revolve around Old South. The fraternities are much more diverse than the sororities, in my opinion and from what I have seen.
lulz @ saying n------ can't join your frat and talk about hanging "them" from trees being "diverse opinion" and that "doesn't threaten individuals."
Never change, LR.
Never change, LR.
I knew some guys from high school that were SAEs at OU. Pretty tight group but I think "brotherhood" is a concept that most fraternities don't seem to comprehend, no matter the racial group their members consist of. Some of the hazing I used to hear about coming from Omegas and Nupes when I was in school doesn't exemplify fraternal "brotherhood" at all. Some of it sounds like a bunch of douchebags compensating for something.
Sticking Sharpies up pledges asses and pouring boiling water on them is...well, it's not "brotherhood".
Let's give the white frat boys a slap on the wrist but hang the black dude. Makes total sense....
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Single you are usually spot on. Here you are
100% wrong. As stated above
The first amendment protects your right to say what you want, not your right to stay in school after you say it. Those guys and the folks on the bus are racist idiots. They are reaping what they sowed.
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100% wrong. As stated above
The first amendment protects your right to say what you want, not your right to stay in school after you say it. Those guys and the folks on the bus are racist idiots. They are reaping what they sowed.
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I don't think these kids were threatening to lynch anyone, just drunk college kids singing a song that has been sung by racists for dozens of years, probably passed down from class to class at SAE U of Oklahoma. They thought they were being funny and cool by singing that.
"There will never be a (n-word) SAE!"[/I]
"There will never be a (n-word) SAE!"[/I]
"You can hang 'em from a tree, but they'll never (Talk?) with me!"[/I]
"There will never be a n-word SAE!"[/I]
N.W.A. sang about cop killing, how many of them went out and actually shot cops?
BTW, the frat house has been boarded up and the SAE letters have been ripped off of the building and SAE received a permanent lifetime ban from OU, with the blessing from SAE's national chapter. Two students have been expelled. If the school didn't act fast enough, the feds were going to step in under Title VI (The Civil Rights Act of 1964).
The frat house cook was black,and now he is out of a job. One football recruit decommitted.
I agree that it's 100% free speech, but I also agree that they are not exempt from discipline. I do not think any charges should be brought against them.
How does the student code of conduct come into effect here if this was done off of school property? Does the CoC state that they can be disciplined for stuff like this outside of school? If SAE is a private organization, that probably has to register with the school, how can it be labeled as a "school issue" (it's the same question has to how can FSU be responsible in any way for JW if the consensual sex act he had was off campus).
No, threatening someone with a hanging is singling someone out and threatening. Singing along with some racist song they've obviously done before since they were so smooth with the lyrics, isn't singling out someone. Just like when someone stands in the middle of the union and screams anyone who has an abortion should be burned alive isn't threatening an individual with killing them by fire.
Wait....what?
Who cares of the cook was black, does that excuse it or is that like having a black friend?
Are you comparing entertainers in the music industry singing a song to what the SAE OU guys sang? I mean does Bruce Willis go around trying to eradicate terrorist at high rise business offices in California in real life?
I would agree with you if the chant was at a group of individuals that were in their presence- it could then certainly be viewed as a direct threat to individuals. Just as we must weigh a protest vs harassment the setting of the chant does not really hold up for a direct threat.
I know for most, topics like this are ruled by emotion and these students were completely offensive to me so my first reaction was also one of emotion. But we have prioritized freedom to debate/discuss and share challenging beliefs and opinions on public university campuses in the past and my fear is that we are in a race to eliminate diverse opinions and protect offended parties by eliminating differing views.
The simple and common approach is to do the easy thing- there won't be protests and outrage that these students were kicked out of a public university for their speech- so I certainly understand why the OU President did what he did... but at what point do you face the prospect of the offended party demanding your (or your child's) removal from the campus when they differ on a passionate topic?
Is this your interpretation of the supreme court rulings on this very topic or are you simply saying this is what you believe the 1st amendment should represent?
Maybe I'm wrong and that's fine, but it's a public university. I don't believe you should be expelled for any free speech that isn't directed at an individual or threatening. Whether I agree or disagree entirely with what is actually said doesn't matter at all. Suspend them, suspend the frat, whatever consequence you want, but I don't believe they should be expelled entirely as one of them. Nothing is learned and nobody furthers their education or overcomes ignorance and bigotry by just being kicked out of college. That does nothing but fuel more hatred and racism rather than trying to abolish and educate it. They might be racist idiots, but just expelling them only assures another generation of more racist idiots.
I don't know about OU's, but if it is similar to FSU's, actually being on school property doesn't really matter depending on the situation. This would certainly probably fall under something they can take jurisdiction over. And they, like Winston, are still students. If it is bad enough, it doesn't matter where it happens. Just like you can be suspended or kicked out of a program for criminal charges that happen nowhere near school property.
This post was edited on 3/10 11:24 PM by Singleshot
1st Amendment 100% protects them from expulsion, as a result of their speech (in this context, as the 1st Amendment is very fact intensive), by a public institution. I have serious doubts that the University can punish the fraternity based on the speech alone. I have no doubt that the OU SAE charter can be pulled by SAE nationals.
I don't care if the cook was black at all, I was just paraphrasing the consequences that was listed on CNN. I also think it shows what a bunch of dolts these kids are for singing that song at the same time they have a black employee at the frat house, it just points out even more ignorance on the students part.
As for comparing to the entertainment industry, I was pointing out that the students were ignorant, but I don't think that they were threatening anyone, and that there was no intent to go out and hang anyone. Ever say that you could kill someone for doing something but never having the any intentions on killing that person? Again, I am sure that was not the first time that, that song was sung by SAE members and we have not heard that anyone has ever threatened anyone with hanging that has sung that song.
I think that the kids and frat got exactly what they deserved, but I do have a few questions that popped in my head regarding free speech.
So you know the ethnic background of everyone on the bus? What if one of the females was half black, quarter black and had a black parent or an adopted sibling who was black? What if it was a white chic who dated black guys and she felt directly threatened by the song?
I never defend frat boys, but MSNBC had a story that showed that the SAE house used to be a diverse house back in that 80's and 90's at OU. Looks like it wasn't always filled with asshats. Now it's been ruined for everyone by a couple of spoiled twats. Meh.
Thank you, that's what I was looking for, to clarify the jurisdiction of the CoC. Also, thank you for not implying that I am a racist because I had some questions and for not interpreting my questions as racist. I hate it when someone accuses someone for not being tolerant because they couldn't be tolerant with what that person asked/shared/spoke.
As I said weighing freedom of speech vs a direct threat is always a balancing act (just like protest vs harassment). If a half black, quarter black, adopted black sibling, girlfriends boyfriend that was black was sitting on the bus and they chanted that they were going to hang her you would be correct, direct threat.
Again we are talking legal terms here- in fact I would not be surprised if the OU President knew that he really couldnt kick them out and he actually pushed the students to voluntarily withdraw,
Considering the frat and their promotion of their ties to the confederacy I do not understand why any black student would want to join. As a black man it seems really odd. Regardless they can suspend the frat, but I do not think they should have been expelled. Though what they said was terrible, they have the right to say it unfortunately. This sets a slippery slope about what's offensive and worthy of expulsion.
Not about what a listener "felt," it's what the intention of the speaker was. Clearly was not a threat. Threatening speech is the worst argument OU could give (well, hate speech is the worst... but hate speech isn't an exception to the 1st amendment). It's not dangerous speech and when there's effective channels for counter-speech available, words are generally protected by the 1st Amendment. The past few days have shown that the counter-speech is clearly effective. They will face social and economic punishment because of it, punishment from the University is unacceptable under the First Amendment.
Playing 6 degrees of who knows a black person isn't unequivocal to threatening. That's a big stretch. Just because someone on the bus has a black adopted brother or something, doesn't mean they are threatening that person or they feel they are going to be hanged just for having an association with a black person. That's just being very creative. It would be more than just their words and singing to indicate something like that or for a threat to be made or felt.
There's an article by a former SAE member from OU who's black, so not only were the guys idiots, they were wrong. It also shows that during that particular SAE members time period at OU, they never sang that song (not in front of him).
I don't think they're dolts, I think it's an indictment on the mentality of racist pigs. You can play sports for us, run the ball, tackle the ball carrier, score touchdowns, throw TD passes, toss in a highlight ESPN alley oops or hit a game winning three for us but you're really not one of us, you're not ever going to be a part of us unless you're cooking for us or entertaining us.
Of course they're not threatening direct harm but we don't know the mentality of those in this particular group. People do stupid sh!t for acceptance and being a part of the group or group think is a dangerous thing when handled by unstable people.
I think "promote" is a strong word for their confederacy ties. They actually started before the civil war. The ones really known for "promoting" their confederate ties is kappa alpha.
Let me see if I can get some clarification. Hypothetically speaking, if the filmer of the bus scene was half black, you're stating that a direct threat doesn't exist IF the bus full of people chanting about hanging ni#$#@ from a tree couldn't constitute a direct threat?
As a person who's mixed (granted, I'd stand out like a sore thumb but my son wouldn't) and as someone who could probably kick the sh!t out of 90% of the people on the bus, I'd feel directly threatened by 20 plus fraternity guys singing about hanging n#$$%# from a tree.
Our CoC is actually very problematic with regard to free speech. What Winston yelled was obscenity. If it had been protected speech, like the speech of the SAEs, it would have drawn a lot more scholarly attention. What OU is doing is clearly unconstitutional.
This post was edited on 3/10 11:57 PM by mnole03
There have been writings on this very topic. Some even included how everyone worshiped Tebow and still say he won 2 NC's while completely dismissing Leak and him getting them to the 2006 game. Read one about that from a former UF student on this mentality.
You're focusing on the hyperbole. If someone who's mixed, "half" black is on that bus and hears that chant from 20 plus people how can that not be constituted as a direct threat. It's a mob of people not one or two but a mob of people singing/screaming at the top of their lungs about hanging black people from trees.
I would feel directly threatened.
Would it be any different if a bus full of guys were screaming about raping a girl and there was one girl on the bus? Is that a direct threat? (Really I'm asking).
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