Stand your ground?
- Thread starter QuaZ2002
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But obviously didn’t listen.
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I feel like there is some alternate world playing out these days.
Now there are people doing their best to argue that killing people in the streets over petty arguments is somehow justified, just because of some ill-conceived law.
Would more than 50% of Floridians actually vote for this kind of slaughter? Justifying these kinds of events is not going to slow down “crime”, if that is the goal. Just like the mass murder epidemic, Florida can expect a dramatic increase in citizen vs. citizen slayings unless they somehow rein in this runaway train.
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There you go assuming something again. Some people just don't get it I guess.
I fully expect the state attorney to bring charges after reviewing this. I’m pretty pro 2A, but hard to be in reasonable fear of imminent bodily hard when I’m pointing a loaded gun at an unarmed man backing away from me. I’d be feeling pretty damn secure at that moment.
The interesting thing to me about this whole situation is how quickly everyone has an opinion; yet other than a video very little facts are really known.
This.
It's really the only important part. The law isn't wrong. The application of it is his instance is. He was not in imminent danger of life or limb or great injury by any reasonable account. The "stand your ground law" does not apply.
As a previous poster pionted out, if the victim made verbal threats of killing him, or going to get a weapon then he may have been justified. Nothing in the video or accounts that we know of suggest that.
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What other facts or information do you think would change perspective?
Audio, what did the woman say to the guy, what did the guy who shoved the other guy say, are the reports about the shooter having a history of confrontation true and so much more.
IMO this is exactly how the Michael Brown thing got so blown up. All we heard was some cop just walked up and shot a black guy for no reason; well that isn't exactly what happened. So a town is destroyed, lives are destroyed all because of bad info becoming reality to so many people.
Can you give examples of what the woman or her companion might have said that would change perspective? What about the shooter's background?
Sure what if she said my husband has a gun and when he gets out here is going to mess you up. How about if she was yelling and screaming at him saying you have no idea what is coming your way, my husband is gonna kill you, or kick you a##. I don't know but how things escalated or what was said gives a much better understanding of what the mindset of the shooter was.
As far as the husband, he could have said stay down or I will kill you. I don't know; what I do know is no one except about 3 or 4 people really know what was going on and 1 of them is dead.
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Turns out that is exactly the case. I spoke with a friend on the job in Tampa, and the shooter is disabled. That is why he was upset, the victim had parked in the handicapped spot. One other thing I wanted to point out is after watching that video a second time, after the victim shoved the shooter onto the ground, he actually appears to reach for his pocket or waistband, easily mistaken for teaching for a weapon. Either way, what I was addressing earlier about size & strength discrepancy goes to another level when the shooter is a disabled guy. Total mismatch, and after talking to my friend, I believe even more strongly now that this was justified.
Let’s see if the DA gets bullied by the press, but the shooter should not be charged, IMO.
It doesn’t matter. The victim should have gotten in his car. Instead, he assaulted a disabled guy and he paid the price for his aggression. He chose poorly.
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You are right. Words don’t kill people. Once you lay your hands on someone, it changes everything.
I’ll give another example we teach. This is in the lecture on proper use of force, and a true life example one of our former SWAT members encountered.
In this example, you are in your car, stopped at a light. Guy in front of you gets out of his car, totally enraged, with a baseball bat and starts smashing your headlights. He starts smashing your hood, and he starts working his way to your driver’s window, he smashes your driver’s mirror. You have taken your handgun out of your holster and it is loaded, with a round in the chamber. At what point can you LEGALLY use deadly force in this case??
I am saying it doesn’t matter what the shooter said. The important part is that the victim came storming out of that store and instead of talking, got physical immediately. No hesitation, just bang, shoved down a disabled guy. He should have told the shooter either he was sorry, got in his car and left, or told the shooter to stfu and got in his car and drove away. Instead, he escalated the situation.
My personal feeling about the situation is that it is a sad tragedy that could have been avoided by talking out the problem. Instead, State of the world today. Everyone wants to be a tough guy. Smh.
He makes money teaching people to do this very thing - of course he’s ok with it.
I’m shocked, absolutely shocked, that the guy who teaches gun classes is siding with the murderer. Does it change your opinion that this is the third incident with this guy involving altercations and threats of violence? Bc that to me is a much more significant issue than his “handicap”.
I'd just like to point out 'murderer' is a legal term.
The individual in question is a "shooter", a "killer", and a "person with disabilities".
"Alleged murderer" is also acceptable.
I’ve yet to see it reported anywhere that the shooter was handicapped. You’d think that would be something the Tampa Bay Times would have included.
I am guessing they would have left and nothing. Now had they stayed there and the cops called and reviewed video and the other guy wanted to press charges. Then i guess he would have been arrested and charged with simple battery.
You really wish you could shoot someone, don't you?
Honestly what the media does and doesn't report nowadays is not very surprising
What bothers me the most is looking for confrontation. The handicap isn't worth getting into an argument over. There are clearly other spaces.
I see people wrongly use the handicap or double park all the time. It pisses me off, and I might wish them herpes, but I don't engage them.
I carry to protect myself or family. I certainly never seek an engagement.
I see people wrongly use the handicap or double park all the time. It pisses me off, and I might wish them herpes, but I don't engage them.
I carry to protect myself or family. I certainly never seek an engagement.
I have little doubt that the parking spot avenger was comfortable being aggressive because he was packing - much like the guy who murdered a dad who defended some kids who were skating on a basketball court a few years ago, and the killer who shot the guy in the movie theatre a couple of years ago.
I'm in favor of gun owner's rights, but not a big fan of the stand your ground law. I think it was passed based on propaganda & rhetoric; when it was first proposed, you'd have thought our prisons were filled to capacity with nothing but people who were jailed while shooting a gang who had invaded their homes.
I'm in favor of gun owner's rights, but not a big fan of the stand your ground law. I think it was passed based on propaganda & rhetoric; when it was first proposed, you'd have thought our prisons were filled to capacity with nothing but people who were jailed while shooting a gang who had invaded their homes.
Well the media has now grabbed onto this story and I fully expect a fire storm coming. The girl friend said in her interview that her boy friend came out to diffuse the situation; later in her interview she mentioned how her man was just trying to defend her.
Throw in the different races in the story and IMO this story is going to blow up real soon.
Just because the guy did something he shouldn't have, doesn't make the shooting justified. These takes on the Stand your ground law is exactly the reason many people think it's bad and want it repealed. This is not the situation it is meant to be for from what I and most see in the video on first couple of watches. If someone shoves you and you hit the ground and they are NOT continuing to advance on you. Heck this guy wasn't even standing over him intimidating him. Then that does not give you the right to just shoot them and by the time the guy drew his weapon if it was going to be a continued attack, he probably never would have been able to draw his gun until he was getting pounded by the guy.
I agree at some level and IMO the biggest thing I would like to see are changes to conceal carry laws. The license's are way to easy to get. I would like to see a minimum of 40 hours training, a stress shot done and a few other things; as well as an annual re-certification. One of the fears I have is a knuckle head who obtained a CCW trying to save the day and making things much worse.
Based on what we've seen/heard thus far, it looks like the shooter has an agenda: He has a history of seeking out illegal handicap parkers and confronting them. I wonder if this could form a legal basis for premeditation?
There were over 16 million CCW license issued last year alone. These are people who did a background check at a minimum, and most had to have some training.
In the arena of violent crime, it's a statistical non issue except for political points.
Im more scared of drivers texting.
Oh I know and as in most cases the vast majority of CCW holders are solid people. I just think that if you required a more stringent process people would take the responsibility more serious. I get emails saying I can apply on line and get a CCW that is a little scary; although I am not sure how the on-line process works though. As far as training from what I have seen it is like a 4 hour class. Sorry but that is not enough; throw in how shooting people has been socialized with video games, movies, etc and we have multiple generations of people that think you kill someone and then they get some health and are back in the game.
I beg to differ
People want to pass laws about stricter background checks, training etc. CCW people are the ones that raised their hands to the FBI and their local law enforcement and applied. There are very specific places you can carry by law. For instance, I can't carry in a place that serves alcohol. Did that store in the video serve?
CCW are a non issue. Be worried about those that didn't raise their hand
As for training, Dothan police department have stated publicly that young kids joining the military, going to serve their country in the sand, getting out and being hired immediately into the police force has been problematic. They are not patrolling a war zone. Honestly, I'm much more scared of them and it's not because they are bad people
Most CCW folks want to be legal in their truck, boat landing and fishing. There is a line about what process you put people through and them complying. I don't want a middle aged school teacher with zero criminal past charged with a gun felony because the training and license was too expensive.
Man parks in handicapped space illegally, assaults handicapped person who complains and gets shot.
That would be a different story, wouldn’t it?
Every story has a lot of takes. What gets left out can be as important, or more important, than what gets included.
I’m going to stick with the plan that got me this far - not assaulting people.
Ill conceived law?? A law that allows you to defend yourself?.
Come on now. I agree cases like this blur the line, but this is just a stupid comment.
EVERYONE has the right to defend themselves. Everyone.
An armed society is a polite society.
There's a lot of truth here.
Took my CCW course at Shoot and Move in Havana. Ex-SWAT guy runs it, they do a lot of advanced training for high-stress situations, etc.
The instructor hammered home a few things:
- Minimum courses for CCW permit are really low and there are too many places that will take your money and issue you a certificate to use for your permit application.
- Why do you want a CCW permit? Are you willing to take a life, because if you draw your gun, that is what will likely be the end result.
- Not everyone is of the right mindset to carry a firearm. He said it's everyone's right, but he went into how too many folks take this right lightly and also don't respect the full responsibility it demands.
- Everyone who actively carries should continue taking training and work on operation in stressful situations. He said most people only practice in ideal situations and most folks only ever take the minimum training needed to get their CCW permit.
- He stressed over and over again that you should not advertise you are caring or ever draw your weapon without intent to use. Element of surprise is important in giving you advantage in a deadly situation. Gun should only be drawn if you truly feel your life is in danger and there is no other way out.
While I have my CCW permit, I have never felt compelled to carry. I support others right to do so, but I've also seen a lot of really poor decisions made by CCW permit holders (people I know, even some friends), particularly when it comes to alcohol.
This is an ignorant post about a law that was created for a number of reasons, but mainly because the previous government stand on defending yourself was insane. The previous law was structured so that if you were out to dinner with friends or family enjoying yourself and were assaulted, it was YOUR DUTY, under the law, to try to turn your back and look for a way to escape. This is a true fact. It was illegal to defend yourself.
Insane.
I know the Stand Your Ground Law as written isn’t perfect, but it supports a very important, basic human right, the right to defend yourself or loved ones from those who would seek to do you harm.
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