Windmills and solar panels an environmental disaster?

[trunole1]

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy/

Windmills bad for environment

Wind turbines have some negative effects on the environment
Birds and bats can be injured or killed if they are hit by turbine blades. These deaths may contribute to declines in the population of species also affected by other human-related impacts.
whale and porpoise deaths?

The Environmental Disaster of Solar Energy

Solar energy is terrible for the environment in a number of ways, including the fact that large land areas must be devoted to it. At Forbes, Michael Shellenberger highlights another problem with solar energy: it produces vast quantities of hazardous waste, which are not being adequately dealt...

www.americanexperiment.org

JMO but I believe on private home roofs though very expensive may be OK

 

[DFSNOLE]

The lengths some go to protect the fossil fuel industry amazes me.

 

[NoleSince1961]

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy/

Windmills bad for environment

Wind turbines have some negative effects on the environment
Birds and bats can be injured or killed if they are hit by turbine blades. These deaths may contribute to declines in the population of species also affected by other human-related impacts.
whale and porpoise deaths?

The Environmental Disaster of Solar Energy

Solar energy is terrible for the environment in a number of ways, including the fact that large land areas must be devoted to it. At Forbes, Michael Shellenberger highlights another problem with solar energy: it produces vast quantities of hazardous waste, which are not being adequately dealt...

www.americanexperiment.org

JMO but I believe on private home roofs though very expensive may be OK

You got any sources more towards the middle of the bias spectrum and higher in factuality ratings as well?

American Enterprise Institute

RIGHT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

 

[trunole1]

The lengths some go to protect the fossil fuel industry amazes me.

not trying to protect fossil fuel industry.

Might I suggest?

Nuclear, natural gas, hydro, geo thermal, and liquid coal for electrical power plants.

Solar panels for homes

Wind farms, massive solar panel farms, electric vehicles not environmentally sound.
IMO

non ethanol gasoline, diesel fuel and natural gas vehicles equals best choice environmentally at this time.

Another question:

Would life exist on earth as we know it without CO2?

 

[DFSNOLE]

not trying to protect fossil fuel industry.

Might I suggest?

Nuclear, natural gas, hydro, geo thermal, and liquid coal for electrical power plants.

Solar panels for homes

Wind farms, massive solar panel farms, electric vehicles not environmentally sound.
IMO

non ethanol gasoline, diesel fuel and natural gas vehicles equals best choice environmentally at this time.

Another question:

Would life exist on earth as we know it without CO2?

I didn't mean to imply you were. Here in Florida, you can get panels installed for a very low cost. All the lobbyists for the conventional power companies have come out trying to get legislation to curb it. The arguments used were almost identical to the ones in your article.

 

[trunole1]

I didn't mean to imply you were. Here in Florida, you can get panels installed for a very low cost. All the lobbyists for the conventional power companies have come out trying to get legislation to curb it. The arguments used were almost identical to the ones in your article.

Not to be contentious but explain why wind farms and solar panel farms are good for the environment both biologically and in terms of natural resources required as well as reliability at all times and weather conditions that render them useless?

 

[NoleSince1961]

Not to be contentious but explain why wind farms and solar panel farms are good for the environment both biologically and in terms of natural resources required as well as reliability at all times and weather conditions that render them useless?

Not DFS here and maybe he wants to do the work for you, but I just did a simple Google search on the topic and it became abundantly clear that how you source and vet your news might be a huge part of the issue here.

Rather than expecting anybody on a sports site to do the research and explaining, one option for researching complex hot-button topics like this and ending up with a more reliable frame of reference might be to more carefully qualify which info sources to give the greatest credence to, based on factors like recency of research (ie 2022, 2023 info might be more valuable than stuff from much earlier dates, pending other credibility vetting), bias, reputation for high factuality, etc.
Good luck.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Not to be contentious but explain why wind farms and solar panel farms are good for the environment both biologically and in terms of natural resources required as well as reliability at all times and weather conditions that render them useless?

The Climate and Air-Quality Benefits of Wind and Solar Power in the United States

Wind & solar energy provide air-quality, public health, and emission benefits as they reduce the reliance on combustion-based electricity generation.

www.energy.gov

 

[GeddyLee09]

I didn't mean to imply you were. Here in Florida, you can get panels installed for a very low cost. All the lobbyists for the conventional power companies have come out trying to get legislation to curb it. The arguments used were almost identical to the ones in your article.

According to Solar.com a 7.6 kWh system would set you back between 10 and 13k after tax incentives. This would pay for itself in 7 or so years depending on usage and returns from the power company. You can get no or low cost solar but some companies have different terms on payments and returns from the power company.

A neighbor of mine paid a company 478 a month for 10 years. They did keep the tax credit but not the returns from the power company. Got to do a lot of research.

Also important is how efficient your house is. The more efficient the higher returns you see and you pay the panels off quicker.

 

[runkpanole]

Because birds and bats were highlighted, can someone provide a scientific study showing bird and bat declines in areas around wind turbines?

 

[trunole1]

Another question you fill a glass of water with ice right to the brim.

When the ice melts does the glass overflow? water level lowers? or remains the same?

For the record I believe in climate change as I see it 4 times every year.

 

[billanole]

Not to be contentious but explain why wind farms and solar panel farms are good for the environment both biologically and in terms of natural resources required as well as reliability at all times and weather conditions that render them useless?

Not be be contentious, but this discussion never seems to truly make long term comparisons about some minor details and they typically don’t…

Detail how much more enviro friendly fossil extraction, transport, and usage are/are not.
Compare health effects on human, fauna, and flora populations.
Consider the water usage in places like Texas needed to bring fuels to market and the liquid waste products created.

 

[billanole]

Another question you fill a glass of water with ice right to the brim.

When the ice melts does the glass overflow? water level lowers? or remains the same?

For the record I believe in climate change as I see it 4 times every year.

So, try this one. Fill a glass with tightly packed ice that extends well over the top of the glass and then fill it with water right up to the brim.
When the ice melts, does the glass overflow?
Seasonal changes are what you observe and are not a very strong comparison to long term patterns..

 

[trunole1]

The Climate and Air-Quality Benefits of Wind and Solar Power in the United States

Wind & solar energy provide air-quality, public health, and emission benefits as they reduce the reliance on combustion-based electricity generation.

www.energy.gov

Don't disagree but according to the EPA


Since 1970, implementation of the Clean Air Act and technological advances from American innovators have dramatically improved air quality in the U.S. Since that time, the combined emissions of criteria and precursor pollutants have dropped by 77%

Air Quality Trends Show Clean Air Progress

Read EPA's annual air trends report, Our Nation's Air, to learn about air quality improvements to protect human health and the environment.

gispub.epa.gov

Without solar or wind farms..
77% looks pretty darn good to me. You?

Guarantee China and India don't touch that %

 

[billanole]

Don't disagree but according to the EPA


Since 1970, implementation of the Clean Air Act and technological advances from American innovators have dramatically improved air quality in the U.S. Since that time, the combined emissions of criteria and precursor pollutants have dropped by 77%

Air Quality Trends Show Clean Air Progress

Read EPA's annual air trends report, Our Nation's Air, to learn about air quality improvements to protect human health and the environment.

gispub.epa.gov

Without solar or wind farms..
77% looks pretty darn good to me. You?

Guarantee China and India don't touch that %

Well, if you remember that a river in Cleveland, Ohio once was on fire due to pollutants, we had a long way to go from ‘70s era pollution. Yes, we have improved greatly, but more population even with cleaner standards still produces a LOT of pollutants.

How do you know what China and India have done? They are both racing to embrace non fossil energy.
China is bypassing hybrid cars and instead leading the electric car implementation.

 

[trunole1]

So, try this one. Fill a glass with tightly packed ice that extends well over the top of the glass and then fill it with water right up to the brim.
When the ice melts, does the glass overflow?
Seasonal changes are what you observe and are not a very strong comparison to long term patterns..

answer again is no Now melting ice from lands like Greenland account for for the 5-8 inch rise in sea level since 1900. 123 years seems to me to be a pretty long term pattern. You?

 

[trunole1]

Well, if you remember that a river in Cleveland, Ohio once was on fire due to pollutants, we had a long way to go from ‘70s era pollution. Yes, we have improved greatly, but more population even with cleaner standards still produces a LOT of pollutants.

How do you know what China and India have done? They are both racing to embrace non fossil energy.
China is bypassing hybrid cars and instead leading the electric car implementation.

Where does the energy come from to power those electric cars how much critical finite resources are required to replace those batteries?

As to India and China are you suggesting they have better air quality than the US?

94 of world's 100 most polluted cities are in India, China, Pakistan​

Air pollution is estimated to cost the global economy upwards of $2.9 trillion per year due to fossil fuel emissions alone.​

 

[billanole]

answer again is no Now melting ice from lands like Greenland account for for the 5-8 inch rise in sea level since 1900. 123 years seems to me to be a pretty long term pattern. You?

Wrong, the water will overflow the glass.
Native peoples in Louisiana are even now having to abandon their home lands.
As the waters heat up, they will increase in level.
123 years is a speck in time.
I don’t want to be known as the people who wouldn’t change bad habits that caused future generations to engage in battles for the dwindling tillable lands and water resources.

 

[billanole]

Where does the energy come from to power those electric cars how much critical finite resources are required to replace those batteries?

As to India and China are you suggesting they have better air quality than the US?

94 of world's 100 most polluted cities are in India, China, Pakistan​

Air pollution is estimated to cost the global economy upwards of $2.9 trillion per year due to fossil fuel emissions alone.​

Plenty of energy is renewable even now, much less in years to come.
Keep on the carbon path if you wish, but do look closely at your last quoted sentence.

 

[goldmom]

Because birds and bats were highlighted, can someone provide a scientific study showing bird and bat declines in areas around wind turbines?

The American Bird Conservancy estimates that well over half a million birds of all sizes and species die each year as a result of the wind turbines AND the utility lines used to carry the power they generate.
Out west they tend to inflict casualties on the larger birds including the California Condor.
I wish they would develop and install something around the blades that would protect the birds, like the blades of a fan.

 

[goldmom]

Well, if you remember that a river in Cleveland, Ohio once was on fire due to pollutants, we had a long way to go from ‘70s era pollution. Yes, we have improved greatly, but more population even with cleaner standards still produces a LOT of pollutants.

How do you know what China and India have done? They are both racing to embrace non fossil energy.
China is bypassing hybrid cars and instead leading the electric car implementation.

Your last paragraph is incredible. 🤔👎

 

[billanole]

Your last paragraph is incredible. 🤔👎

It is a truthful statement. Sure, they are both incredibly polluted countries, but are also both making big strides toward renewables.
With a lack of fossil resources, they have no better directions to go in, except maybe next generation nuclear.

 

[billanole]

The American Bird Conservancy estimates that well over half a million birds of all sizes and species die each year as a result of the wind turbines AND the utility lines used to carry the power they generate.
Out west they tend to inflict casualties on the larger birds including the California Condor.
I wish they would develop and install something around the blades that would protect the birds, like the blades of a fan.

It would be interesting to compare the bird deaths from fossil fuel extraction, transport, usage, AND the utility lines used to carry the power they generate to those from an equivalent amount of BTUs on an annual basis.
Tough to compare apples and orange, but fossil usage is no boon to bird species.

 

[goldmom]

It is a truthful statement. Sure, they are both incredibly polluted countries, but are also both making big strides toward renewables.
With a lack of fossil resources, they have no better directions to go in, except maybe next generation nuclear.

China is building new coal plants at an incredible pace - at least two a month.

 

[goldmom]

It would be interesting to compare the bird deaths from fossil fuel extraction, transport, usage, AND the utility lines used to carry the power they generate to those from an equivalent amount of BTUs on an annual basis.
Tough to compare apples and orange, but fossil usage is no boon to bird species.

That’s almost “whataboutism”.

 

[billanole]

That’s almost “whataboutism”.

So, you post stats about unfortunate bird deaths from windmills, but if I suggest fossil fuel usage also causes problems, it is a non starter.
No biggie, enjoy your Sunday afternoon.

 

[billanole]

China is building new coal plants at an incredible pace - at least two a month.

Truth, probably. They are also leading the world in electric vehicle production, probably.
Stats from China are often hard to believe.

 

[trunole1]

Wrong, the water will overflow the glass.
Native peoples in Louisiana are even now having to abandon their home lands.
As the waters heat up, they will increase in level.
123 years is a speck in time.
I don’t want to be known as the people who wouldn’t change bad habits that caused future generations to engage in battles for the dwindling tillable lands and water resources.

Nope! As long as there is water to the level at the top of the glass it will not over flow.

When you build a city below sea level what do you expect will happen?

I am not for oil or coal fired power plants as I stated above.. New nuclear is likely the best choice.

Actually, on the assumption that warming continues there will more plant growth in places like Greenland. More warming more evaporation and rainfall.
Enjoy your life. Living in fear is not a good way to live.

Matter can change form through physical and chemical changes, but through any of these changes matter is conserved. The same amount of matter exists before and after the change—none is created or destroyed. This concept is called the Law of Conservation of Mass.

 

[bcherod]

I read several of the articles from the Bird Conservancy. Two things stand out to me.

1-
Birds and other wildlife confront many threats, and they add up. One recent analysis of 8,000 species on the International Union for Conservation of Nature Red List of Threatened Species found that climate change is not the most immediate threat to wildlife today; that distinction went to the traditional threats of over-exploitation (overfishing, hunting, and so on) and habitat loss from agriculture. The authors concluded that “efforts to address climate change do not overshadow more immediate priorities for the survival of the world's flora and fauna.”


And, 2-We have at least three federal laws designed to protect our native birds and bats from purposeful or accidental harm: the Endangered Species Act, the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, and the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act. Enforcement of these laws has been sporadic at best, especially with regard to the wind industry. To make matters worse, federal guidelines governing wind energy development are voluntary, not mandatory, and few developers at present are obtaining the “take” permits necessary to kill protected species.

And combine that with the Court's decision on the EPA.

So, basically, it's pick your poison.

So, it sets up an interesting dichotomy on these boards.

 

[billanole]

Nope! As long as there is water to the level at the top of the glass it will not over flow.

When you build a city below sea level what do you expect will happen?

I am not for oil or coal fired power plants as I stated above.. New nuclear is likely the best choice.

Actually, on the assumption that warming continues there will more plant growth in places like Greenland. More warming more evaporation and rainfall.
Enjoy your life. Living in fear is not a good way to live.

Matter can change form through physical and chemical changes, but through any of these changes matter is conserved. The same amount of matter exists before and after the change—none is created or destroyed. This concept is called the Law of Conservation of Mass.

Silly.

 

[DFSNOLE]

@truenole, I am also a big proponent of nuclear energy. Unfortunately, the time from the acquisition of land to them going online is so great the feasibility of building enough of them to be effective nationally isn't good.

 

[billanole]

I read several of the articles from the Bird Conservancy. Two things stand out to me.

1-
Birds and other wildlife confront many threats, and they add up. One recent analysis of 8,000 species on the International Union for Conservation of Nature Red List of Threatened Species found that climate change is not the most immediate threat to wildlife today; that distinction went to the traditional threats of over-exploitation (overfishing, hunting, and so on) and habitat loss from agriculture. The authors concluded that “efforts to address climate change do not overshadow more immediate priorities for the survival of the world's flora and fauna.”


And, 2-We have at least three federal laws designed to protect our native birds and bats from purposeful or accidental harm: the Endangered Species Act, the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, and the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act. Enforcement of these laws has been sporadic at best, especially with regard to the wind industry. To make matters worse, federal guidelines governing wind energy development are voluntary, not mandatory, and few developers at present are obtaining the “take” permits necessary to kill protected species.

And combine that with the Court's decision on the EPA.

View embedded media

So, basically, it's pick your poison.

So, it sets up an interesting dichotomy on these boards.

Good post.
One part of the wind vs. solar, fossil, hydro, or nuclear power generation is that they basically share power line delivery, except for home owner solar panels.
Discussion about wind power deaths tends to also include power line deaths, but these deaths are not solely confined to wind power generation.

 

[runkpanole]

The American Bird Conservancy estimates that well over half a million birds of all sizes and species die each year as a result of the wind turbines AND the utility lines used to carry the power they generate.
Out west they tend to inflict casualties on the larger birds including the California Condor.
I wish they would develop and install something around the blades that would protect the birds, like the blades of a fan.

I went and read their website. It appears that the placement of the wind turbines is the problem. It appears that the Department of Interior has failed to properly address this.

 

[bcherod]

Topics like this were regular events in GCA.

I always maintained that clean water was the most important issue. We already have "water wars", particularly notable is the limiting of water from GA and AL that directly affect oyster production in Apalachicola.

But, ultimately, it doesn't matter how much clean air we have if we don't have clean water.

Incidentally, Sylvia Earle is an alumna of FSU.

 

[bcherod]

Twenty years ago I investigated the small windmill that goes on your house. I couldn't convince my husband to make the initial outlay. Every time I pay a utility bill, I think about having that windmill. I'd be getting paid today.

 

[billanole]

I went and read their website. It appears that the placement of the wind turbines is the problem. It appears that the Department of Interior has failed to properly address this.

One of the earliest turbine fields in Cali is in a major migratory path.

BirdLife Data Zone

datazone.birdlife.org

Not all turbine fields produce large death rates. We will get better at placements of turbines.

 

[bcherod]

One of the earliest turbine fields in Cali is in a major migratory path.

BirdLife Data Zone

datazone.birdlife.org

Not all turbine fields produce large death rates. We will get better at placements of turbines.

Yes, and the articles on the site address that placement is a key factor. They also cite cats being a major culprit in bird death.

But, there are many other pieces in this puzzle. Unregulated development of wetlands is a major one, even in "green" states. It's all about the money. There comes a time when people have to make a decision regarding what is "best", but right now, there are very few companies that are willing to give up profits for the greater good.

 

[goldmom]

One of the earliest turbine fields in Cali is in a major migratory path.

BirdLife Data Zone

datazone.birdlife.org

Not all turbine fields produce large death rates. We will get better at placements of turbines.

And the turbines will improve in design.

 

[billanole]

Twenty years ago I investigated the small windmill that goes on your house. I couldn't convince my husband to make the initial outlay. Every time I pay a utility bill, I think about having that windmill. I'd be getting paid today.

We live on a small hillside at the bottom of a small cove that funnels wind in our direction, with often very strong winds, more often lesser steady winds. The problem is that trees above us on neighboring properties slow the winds enough to make our ground not “windy” enough to justify a small turbine.
Dang, I wish we could, I wish we could.

 

[bcherod]

So I did a little more research, as I remember very well when Ted Kennedy opposed wind turbines, and I found this. It gives a little history.

It is true that Yacht Clubs were all initially opposed, and one of the arguments was that it would interfere with their racing. Wealthy homeowners were concerned about the "view".

Cape Cod Offshore Wind Moves Ahead — Despite Controversy - CleanTechnica

This article is about the Cape Cod offshore wind project located 15 miles off the coast of Martha’s Vineyard.

cleantechnica.com