Effective at what? I think that's the question. If you listened to the SCOTUS arguments today, Justice Sotomayor and Justice Breyer are assuming--likely because of the "vaccine" label--that the covid shot inoculates the vaccinated. You'd hope DOJ would clarify--but they did not. So DOJ, in litigation over the mandates, is claiming immunity/stopping transmission as the primary purpose of the vaccines and mandates. It's a fiction, especially with the Omicron variant, which is the relevant variant at this time.
What I Don’t Get About Vaccine
- Thread starter RONole
- Start date
Sure it does. From the CDC website, in a post from October and last reviewed by the CDC on 12/21/2021:
"The Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine for children is over 90% effective at preventing COVID-19 in children ages 5 through 11 years."
See #1 in the link below
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children | CDC
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children Facts and information about the COVID-19 vaccine for children ages 5 through 11 years of age, as well as quick tips for parents and caregivers. Learn more.
I largely agree with everything you wrote. Vaccines, at least historically, are intended to immunize. I don't think that's controversial. The covid vaccines were said to provide immunity for 90+% of the vaccinated against covid. Not a single variant. That other variants have come around isn't surprising. That the vaccine is not effective at stopping transmission of those variants is not surprising. The federal government and some states have acted as though it does stop transmission--i.e., that the shots immunize. We agree they don't. So there should be no mandates or vaccine passports. My issue is with the legal significance of attaching the vaccine label to these shots. This is not the small pox vaccine.
Not many pages ago, people equated the covid shots to the polio and small pox vaccines. I think we agree that this is not like the polio and smallpox vaccines.
The only subject you and I have discussed is whether the authorities communicated the possibility of breakthrough infections because of future variants. This is not addressed in any way shape or form what you posted. I could debate with you this particular page for other reasons because you do appear to have a problem with it but I will leave that to another day or someone else. You can see a post that I wrote on August 7th bringing up the possibility of a variant from Africa that could evade the vaccine. That post turns out to be a little prophetic. By the way it is possible that new strains of this virus could occur over the years and that will be even more problematic than the current variants. This information is widely available to those that have even the smallest amount of intellectual curiosity and has been since very early in pandemic.Sure it does. From the CDC website, in a post from October and last reviewed by the CDC on 12/21/2021:
"The Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine for children is over 90% effective at preventing COVID-19 in children ages 5 through 11 years."
See #1 in the link below
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children | CDC
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children Facts and information about the COVID-19 vaccine for children ages 5 through 11 years of age, as well as quick tips for parents and caregivers. Learn more.www.cdc.gov
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I agree it is likely the current Supreme Court will likely strike it down. I am also not in favor of a mandate at this time. I do personally believe it is not an infringement on civil liberties but it would cause major problems for businesses in the current labor climate.
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Glad to hear you agree with almost all of it, but I think we still have a significant difference in understanding and expectations of vaccinations. You are way oversimplifying and conflating what different types of vaccines do. And even when the ultimate efficacy of a vaccine falls short of initial expectations, typically due to the unpredictability of future variants, that does not kick it out of the vaccination category (unless, I suppose, it fails on all accounts, which Covid-19 vaccines do not.)
This explanation of Covid-19 vaccines was written before Delta emerged in the US, which threw everyone for another loop with its unusually high transmissibility (surpassed later by Omicron), but it's still informative:
Vaccines Need Not Completely Stop COVID Transmission to Curb the Pandemic
Lessons from other viruses show that even if vaccines don’t completely stop disease spread, they can still successfully contain it
www.scientificamerican.com
if a variant was able to fully cloak its spike protein then all covid vaccines currently approved for use in the US would essentially be rendered useless in people that have not previously been exposed to covid. there are vaccines in development that target multiple proteins of the virus.
there are also attenuated live virus candidates in development.
florida just issued its most recent data up to january 6, 2022. case numbers were through the roof at 397k cases for the week. interestingly though the percentage share of those cases for each age group was almost dead nuts on the average for each age group since the pandemic began (in florida).
largest share was the 16-29 age group at 23% of the recorded cases. that age group also has the highest number of cases in florida by a good margin - next closest is 30-39 age group with ~220k less cases.
184 recorded deaths this week in florida. 75% of those were 65+. 93.5% 50+.
there are also attenuated live virus candidates in development.
florida just issued its most recent data up to january 6, 2022. case numbers were through the roof at 397k cases for the week. interestingly though the percentage share of those cases for each age group was almost dead nuts on the average for each age group since the pandemic began (in florida).
largest share was the 16-29 age group at 23% of the recorded cases. that age group also has the highest number of cases in florida by a good margin - next closest is 30-39 age group with ~220k less cases.
184 recorded deaths this week in florida. 75% of those were 65+. 93.5% 50+.
Thing is, it's not the COVID vaccines' fault that it is not hitting the high standard set by the polio and smallpox vaccines. It's not the fault of the companies making the vaccines. The vaccines were done right and any shortcomings are caused by properties of the virus, particularly when it comes to variants, which we knew would happen. That doesn't make it any less of a vaccine. Many of the COVID vaccines being used around the world use the very same platforms that have created successful vaccines in the past, and are being used to develop important new technologies now and in the future. Hopefully the vaccine makers will be able to make a revised version of their vaccines that will be more effective against current and upcoming variants.
US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say
Within weeks, Walter Reed researchers expect to announce that human trials show success against Omicron—and even future strains.
www.defenseone.com
I can tell you as an inpatient in a compromised ward since before Omicron kicked off, the biggest issue is staffing. Not the virus. And if they redo the Medicaid mandate this place will lose 30-40% of the staff still here. I will lose my two favorite and most competent nurses. I’m glad I go home next Wednesday.
It isn’t an easy balance but I know I’d hate trying cases with masked witnesses. One main job for jury is to evaluate credibility. In large part that’s done by watching witnesses. This is something I am surprised how many people get, trial or no trial, facial cues and expressions are an integral part of our daily lives. We don’t notice because they’re so innate. Masks are very socially destructive.
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It’s not a blame thing at all. Well not for me. It’s a simple fact thing. They aren’t going to stop the pandemic. It’s going to burn through the planet no matter what people do because it’s what viruses do and the world has gotten so small and so interconnected. Once this was out of Wuhan, it was all over.
The shots may make more survive it. That’s good. It’s not the government’s job, though, to force people to do things to protect themselves medically like that.
I think your intentions are laudable. We’ve chatted enough to know you’re a good guy and you want good things for people. But you trust the government way more than I do. I don’t want to cede any such power to them.
I'm not sure about the Polio vaccine. Like most viruses, most people who get infected with polio are asymptomatic. Of those with symptoms, only 1-5 out of a thousand or .1-.5% experience paralysis and need hospitalization. 20% of those die (assuming 3rd world medical care). Around 25% of those with polio experience "flu-like" symptoms for a few days and it goes away. The vast majority of those with symptoms are less than 15 years of age. So, the assumption that vaccination lasts forever is not really tested as it only needs to last for a few years until the child is 15.
Fair. I am honestly not sure of constitutional issue regarding conscription so I’m not going to speak out of my butt. Haven’t read Con cover to cover in forever and never had to know that. It is interesting. Life’s about balances and nationally we should all fear the government getting more power. It’s one reason I’m so passionate on this - I feel like so many are just fine with it. That scares me.
Wouldn't covid deaths be lower regardless of vaccine? I mean you have three groups, Those with immunity from the get go, those who survive the infection and gain immunity, and those who die from the virus. So you are left with a group with immunity and a group that evaded exposure.
So its logical from a numbers standpoint, that deaths would drop off as the virus found the previously unexposed, which would be a smaller population. The same process would play out on a smaller scale.
The Spanish flu was gone within two years following this process.
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That’s ultimately the viral path. We’ve attenuated it in many ways. Good intentions. Even great. But attenuated what is largely inevitable.
I'm just glad to see you in here keeping up the good fight. You have been the best at bringing logic and perspective to the conversation.
Relatively speaking but the virus is far more transmissible than its early days.
i’m still a bit skeptical of how many people have actually had it. CDC estimates are a couple hundred million but sequencing from blood donors is a significantly lower number suggesting closer to 30-35% of the nation has been exposed and created antibodies.
US and UK data aligns well for seroprevalence in blood donors. Both are in the mid 20’s percent. Of course you need to factor there the age range for people that can donate blood and people 16 and under make up a decent chunk of recorded cases hence why i’d think it would be closer to a third of the population but a far cry from the near two thirds estimated.
edit: my above notes are pre—omicron. Omicron is definitely a game changer.
Thanks. I sure hope so. I try.
The saddest thing to be is how personal this has gotten. I don’t mean here. I mean overall. I’m always happy to change opinion based on facts.
My philosophy is to get it right. Not be right. Can’t be rigid. Well except in the distrust of government.
The saddest thing to be is how personal this has gotten. I don’t mean here. I mean overall. I’m always happy to change opinion based on facts.
My philosophy is to get it right. Not be right. Can’t be rigid. Well except in the distrust of government.
IMHO one excellent way to improve trust in government is to place a much higher value on integrity and truthfulness when choosing our leaders (and by extension their appointees) and the credibility we demand of them while in office, and not to celebrate, reward, encourage and promote lies and dishonor.
We need to take more responsibility.
It’s not an us vs. them thing.
We put them there, we signal what we find acceptable or not, and we decide who stays and goes.
We need to take more responsibility.
It’s not an us vs. them thing.
We put them there, we signal what we find acceptable or not, and we decide who stays and goes.
It’s getting difficult to break the cycle of what is pretty much a popularity contest as time passes, especially at the federal level.
i will admit though that i have an inherent bias for federal appointments that can cloud things. The more closely they align with british policy and general european values, the less likely i am to vote for those people. I didn’t migrate to the US to bring the UK with me.
Funny thing is those sake places don’t want our woke BS exported there. Fascinating times in which we live.
I’d say we still have a bit of wiggle room before catching up to ol’ blighty.
brexit and its aftermath was definitely an eye opener for a lot of brits, particularly how evasive the government was because they didn’t get their preferred outcome.
They still manage to pull real pearlers out their butts though on a fairly regular basis like going after homeowners for having a paddling pool in the yard making it an unreasonable hazard to burglars when it’s dark….
Lol... you are always spoiling to show everyone on a football message board how smart you think you are. I enjoy seeing your arrogant attitude accomplish the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve. Your frustration is delicious... keep it coming
I’d hope you know but I’ve killed enough threads on WC so I’ll bow out of that kind of discussion. It’s pretty obvious though given our country can’t even figure genders and pronouns.
Well said. ^^^^^^. Unfortunately, medicine, science, like national intelligence, education, history, and most other aspects of life has been politicized to the detriment of all of us. And I'll stop there on that.
On another note, I didn't realize you had been in a serious accident... I rarely come over to the Locker Room. Sounds like you've been through hell, (and are still there). I wish you a fast and speedy recovery. Take Care.
God Bless
Sincerely,
Noletaire
Right. Future variants, while foreseeable, are not entirely predictable, so we should not have been thrown for a loop with Delta or Omicron. I appreciate that efficacy (for immunity) may fall short of initial expectations, but it must have some substantial inoculating effect to be considered a vaccine, at least under the traditional definition/usage of the term vaccine. Maybe we end up with 4+ shots that are rotated depending on the year's dominant variant--much like the flu shots. But none of those should be mandated by any level of government.Glad to hear you agree with almost all of it, but I think we still have a significant difference in understanding and expectations of vaccinations. You are way oversimplifying and conflating what different types of vaccines do. And even when the ultimate efficacy of a vaccine falls short of initial expectations, typically due to the unpredictability of future variants, that does not kick it out of the vaccination category (unless, I suppose, it fails on all accounts, which Covid-19 vaccines do not.)
This explanation of Covid-19 vaccines was written before Delta emerged in the US, which threw everyone for another loop with its unusually high transmissibility (surpassed later by Omicron), but it's still informative:
Vaccines Need Not Completely Stop COVID Transmission to Curb the Pandemic
Lessons from other viruses show that even if vaccines don’t completely stop disease spread, they can still successfully contain it
As I mentioned, my commentary wasn't about mandates, and I surely don't think anybody's opinion about mandates should drive their categorization of any vaccine. Luckily, when it comes to the scientific/medical community, they don't label things based on whether or not that's most likely to play better in state and federal courts to fend off mandates. If more citizens acted thoughtfully rather than defiantly, we'd have enough of the population fully vaccinated so that mandates wouldn't even be up for discussion.
Your assertion that the high transmissability for some Covid-19 variants knocks Covid-19 vaccines out of the vaccine category, based on previous usage of the word is simply false and uninformed, no matter how you personally or others outside the medical field previously used it. The recent update in the Merriam-Webster definition of vaccine was late in coming and needed, but in no way says more than the actual decades of vaccines, all accepted as "vaccines" in the medical community, with prevention/hinderance-of-transmissibility profiles all along the spectrum.
Ask 10 knowledgable epidemiologists and at least 9 out of 10 of them will completely disagree with your presumption that "we should not have been thrown for a loop with Delta or Omicron"... obviously everybody knew or should have known that further variants were likely, but with the extreme transmissibility and virulence of Delta and even significantly higher transmissibility of Omicron, along with significant differences in symptoms and outcomes, nah, not that extremeness-of-the-differences part of the equation.
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The CDC “updated” the definition in August. We have emails showing it was done because of potential for legal challenges to the covid shots classification as a vaccine. So when it comes to the government scientific/medical community, they in fact changed the definition with an eye towards how legal proceedings would play out. I can provide a link to the emails if necessary.
We knew variants would be more transmissible. It’s common sense. Basic biology. We also knew variants would be less deadly, but more dominant. When it came to the vaccine, government messaging continues to at least imply that the vaccine affects transmission. That’s clearly not accurate for the relevant, Omicron variant.
If the covid vax doesn’t provide any substantial immunity to infection then it is not a traditional vaccine. It may provide robust immunity against certain variants of covid and no immunity against others; if so, it’s a vaccine against some variants, but not all.
my primary concern is the legality of mandates and vax passports, and how the label “vaccine” affects those cases. It is unlike the vaccine at issue in Jacobson and related cases, so courts shouldn’t afford it the same legal status/treatment/deference as the Jacobson vaccine. Otherwise, I hope the vaccines/shots work as billed.
Thanks man. I’m doing as well as could be expected. I’ll be home in a few days. I am READY.
Should t. But Sotomayor sure talked yesterday as if these shots stopped transmissions. And counsel just went with it.
it tends to cloud things when you move the goalposts by only reporting hospitalizations and deaths in breakthrough infections. they report all instances in the UK. population adjusted per 100,000, infections are occurring twice as often in the vaccinated.
as i will always acknowledge though, hospitalizations are five times more prevalent in the unvaccinated, population adjusted per 100,000.
Who knew that counsel (and Sotomayor, and Breyer) could've swung by the LR and found widespread, bipartisan agreement that the covid vaccinations do not inoculate.
Are they testing everyone?
This:
Indeed, the Dec. 22 article clearly states in paragraph three: “Note that this is the probability of an infection being Omicron given a person is infected, so it doesn’t tell us how likely a person is to test positive in the first place.”
It also says, “This means it doesn’t tell us that the vaccines are making things worse overall, only that they are making it much more likely that a vaccinated person is infected with Omicron than another variant,” adding “it is a measure of how well Omicron evades the vaccines compared to Delta. The fact that the triple-vaccinated are much more likely to be infected with Omicron than the double-vaccinated confirms this vaccine evading ability.”
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everyone that feels they need to be tested presumably? london was the massive omicron hotspot initially (no doubt to it being such a huge transportation hub) but they have done millions of tests over the past couple of weeks nationwide.
the one thing i was watching in their reporting was an odd strain that popped up in the UK between delta and omicron. it was growing quickly but omicron is now squeezing it out which i suppose is a good sign.
I already made super clear that the caught-by-surprise elements of Delta and Omicron were not about being more transmissible (as is one of the common objectives of mutation) but all about the degree of change — the extreme leap(s) in transmissibility and extremeness of the entire change profile.
But there’s really no need to discuss/debate any Covid topics now that you’ve made clear that you are looking at things primarily through the narrow lense of mandate objection. That’s not how I or most others with any interest in the history of this pandemic look at Covid-19.
Good luck. The final details accompanying the Supreme Court’s upcoming rejection of Biden’s large company mandate should be very interesting beyond the conservative-majority rejection alone.
Re: "our country can't even figure genders and pronouns" being what came to mind for you to illustrate what "woke BS" means...
Initial inclination was just to let this go with no response. I agree with you that I don't want to get this thread killed, and also this tends to be way too nuanced/complex a topic for this type of forum and not the type of thing that gets a good reception on here, unless you're joining in on the mocking.
But you are an influential poster on here, and from your posts in your Busted Up thread, it sounds like your recent accident and recovery process have led you to reconsider what's really important in life, how we treat each other, etc., so I'll take the risk of answering this and hopefully you, and others, will be openminded and listen to what I'm saying here vs. just rolling your eyes.
Purposely leaving all politics out of it. No snark at all.
The whole gender thing is not "woke BS". I have 2 direct experiences here -- a family member and also the now adult child of a very close friend who both identify with the gender they were not born with.
It's not just some phase or mental disorder or dismissible confusion of any kind, and certainly not laughable; it's just how they are actually wired. I am convinced of this, no matter how dismissive and skeptical and sometimes joking about it I previously was as well, because I've now spent years getting to know them as they really are, listening to them, watching them grow up.
I couldn't just let this slide by unaddressed since I would feel super shitty to do so... I love both of them, they are both incredibly kind, talented, intelligent humans who contribute positively to our society -- yet they (witnessed by their empathetic family and friends) go through almost daily hell hearing society mock and dismiss their reality.
There is NO way either of them would persist in identifying as they now do, continuing to be subject to the marginalization and ridicule if it were not real. It is definitely not "BS". And neither of them "chose" to be non-binary, they are sure of this and all of us who know them are also sure of that.
If it makes me "woke" to acknowledge the reality that human gender identity is more complex than simply 100% male or 100% female, then yeh, I'm now proudly "woke". Gender and sexuality simply are not the binary, black and white easy-to-categorize things that many of us insist they are or wish they were to make life more convenient.
Not trying to spur any kind of debate, and certainly not about pronouns, bathrooms, equity in sports, etc. How we as a society adjust to the non-binary reality is a whole 'nother thing beyond what these message boards can handle... The point of this post is simply to encourage you and others to reconsider that our country figuring out/struggling with genders and pronouns = "woke BS".
Thanks for listening.
Go Noles!
Sounds to me like Justices Kagan, Breyer, and Sotomayor don't have a clue about Covid.
750,000 infections yesterday?
100,000 children hospitalized, some on ventilators?
Yikes.
750,000 infections yesterday?
100,000 children hospitalized, some on ventilators?
Yikes.
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