Why Eliminating the SAT is bad for students from poor families

[fsufool]

Regarding those silly masks, if you’re referring to the Cochrane study, even their editors are saying that the results DON’T point to masks being useless or silly. Meta-analyses are notoriously difficult to interpret.

As to the Cochrane studies, that is not what was said by the person in charge, She just restated what the language did say. If you bother to read the actual study then you wouldn't have made the statement you posted. She is also made it clear from before Covid she is a mask believer, so this is just a political statement. The actual authors of the study made some comments about her and the study that, lets say, wasn't complimentary of her or the job she is doing. But even more important is that we have almost two generations of research, including now 3 meta-studies (Cochrane did one in 2014 in addition to this one) that basically say the same thing. There is little evidence that masking, whether on the population level or smaller scale, mitigate the spread of respiratory disease.

The study authors also bemoaned the lack of quality research available, specifically done in the USA. This is a common refrain from fair minded scientist working in that area and speaks to Fauci's lack of funding those studies (I will leave you to ponder why he didn't fund RCT studies). I think that the CDC and NIAID publishing truly crap observational studies like the hairdresser one and the Arizona one on their website speaks to what was going on here.

Science is never settled, but after 50 years of scientific inquiry into mask efficacy in the population without evidence of masks mitigating is meaningful. But, I don't believe in the tooth fairy either. (and yes this is snark)

 

[DFSNOLE]

I would say Omnicron and travel being more prevelant played into it as well.

The Delta variant was the most deadly in Florida and happened in the summer of 2021. At its peak in late August, early September 2021, Florida was averaging ~400 deaths a day. New York was under 25 during the same time frame. Again, much had been learned by that time. Some applied the lessons better than others.

 

[GeddyLee09]

The Delta variant was the most deadly in Florida and happened in the summer of 2021. At its peak in late August, early September 2021, Florida was averaging ~400 deaths a day. New York was under 25 during the same time frame. Again, much had been learned by that time. Some applied the lessons better than others.

Yeah Delta. Got my greek alphabet strains mixed up.

 

[fsufool]

The Delta variant was the most deadly in Florida and happened in the summer of 2021. At its peak in late August, early September 2021, Florida was averaging ~400 deaths a day. New York was under 25 during the same time frame. Again, much had been learned by that time. Some applied the lessons better than others.

Lots going on here. NY during the first wave decided to put infected individuals into nursing homes, the most at risk group possible. They also were over ventilating patients causing more deaths. Florida has a higher percentage of at-risk people than any other state (over age 70, over age 80). NYC has different transportation modes than those other places. They also have 3 airports servicing Europe and China with many more overall passengers. The actual counting of a Covid death was different from area to area and from early on to later. And there were differences when communities actually saw Covid enter. NYC was earlier, while other states/cities were later.

FYI, Work is being done on excess deaths trying to figure out the real numbers. You don't see it from the mass media, but these folks all agree you can't depend on death certificates because there was much variation on cause of death during the pandemic as well as from area to area. Those that work in this space had not used death certificates for a long time and influenza numbers were always estimated for example.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Lots going on here. NY during the first wave decided to put infected individuals into nursing homes, the most at risk group possible. They also were over ventilating patients causing more deaths. Florida has a higher percentage of at-risk people than any other state (over age 70, over age 80). NYC has different transportation modes than those other places. They also have 3 airports servicing Europe and China with many more overall passengers. The actual counting of a Covid death was different from area to area and from early on to later. And there were differences when communities actually saw Covid enter. NYC was earlier, while other states/cities were later.

FYI, Work is being done on excess deaths trying to figure out the real numbers. You don't see it from the mass media, but these folks all agree you can't depend on death certificates because there was much variation on cause of death during the pandemic as well as from area to area. Those that work in this space had not used death certificates for a long time and influenza numbers were always estimated for example.

I don't disagree but there still is a huge difference between 400 and 25 daily deaths during the same time frame 18 months into the pandemic.

 

[GeddyLee09]

I don't disagree but there still is a huge difference between 400 and 25 daily deaths during the same time frame 18 months into the pandemic.

Covid traveled with different areas getting waves at different times. Hard to compare time frames and numbers as it spread differently. I think New York had a big wave later that year pushing 400 deaths a day as well.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Covid traveled with different areas getting waves at different times. Hard to compare time frames and numbers as it spread differently. I think New York had a big wave later that year pushing 400 deaths a day as well.

The Delta variant hit New York at the same time as Florida. The disparity in daily deaths was great. New York did not have a spike that approached 400 deaths per day after the initial one. Their largest spike after that one was in the beginning of 2022 with Omicron when both states saw around 200 per day.

 

[GeddyLee09]

The Delta variant hit New York at the same time as Florida. The disparity in daily deaths was great. New York did not have a spike that approached 400 deaths per day after the initial one. Their largest spike after that one was in the beginning of 2022 with Omicron when both states saw around 200 per day.

Jan 18 22 New York had 407 deaths, Jan 25 2023 they had 390. But you are correct they did not have the large Delta spike like Florida did. Overall though the numbers came out almost the same.

Germany was considered to do well early but their death and case numbers spiked very late in the pandemic.

What I'm saying is there's a lot of variables to consider other than politicians and policies. It could have been better in both states.

 

[rtpnole]

As to the Cochrane studies, that is not what was said by the person in charge, She just restated what the language did say. If you bother to read the actual study then you wouldn't have made the statement you posted. She is also made it clear from before Covid she is a mask believer, so this is just a political statement. The actual authors of the study made some comments about her and the study that, lets say, wasn't complimentary of her or the job she is doing. But even more important is that we have almost two generations of research, including now 3 meta-studies (Cochrane did one in 2014 in addition to this one) that basically say the same thing. There is little evidence that masking, whether on the population level or smaller scale, mitigate the spread of respiratory disease.

The study authors also bemoaned the lack of quality research available, specifically done in the USA. This is a common refrain from fair minded scientist working in that area and speaks to Fauci's lack of funding those studies (I will leave you to ponder why he didn't fund RCT studies). I think that the CDC and NIAID publishing truly crap observational studies like the hairdresser one and the Arizona one on their website speaks to what was going on here.

Science is never settled, but after 50 years of scientific inquiry into mask efficacy in the population without evidence of masks mitigating is meaningful. But, I don't believe in the tooth fairy either. (and yes this is snark)

I went back a read the paper
First line of the author’s conclusions reads:
“The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.”
Tom Jefferson, the lead author, then said:
“There is just no evidence that they” — masks — “make any difference,” he told the journalist Maryanne Demasi. “Full stop.”
Sounds pretty firm to me!
This says to me that you can’t conclude anything. And that’s fine. Unfortunately that’s not what the press reported.
I also find it interesting that they left out a study by Andrejcko et al from the CDC IN 2022. I don’t know, politics maybe?

 

[bcherod]

CT also had early deaths, but cause was listed as pneumonia and other things as primary cause of death.

On the coroner's reports in CT, there are two boxes for this, primary and secondary. Initially, primary cause of death was not listed as COVID. CT's numbers align closer to NY numbers in the early days of COVID, with the peak of deaths being April 23, 2020., and being primarily in Fairfield Co., a no-brainer since there are so many people commuting to and from NYC on trains.

The mask mandate in CT began on April 20, 2020. After that time, the deaths were greatly reduced. There was a spike in cases January 2022, but not the high death rate from 2020. The mask mandate was reduced May 19 2021.

But, as with anything, the other side will always say it isn't true.

People who have seen it "up front and personal", see it differently than people who haven't had the experience.

But, CT did not move people into nursing homes, so what accounted for their high death rates?

 

[fsufool]

I went back a read the paper
First line of the author’s conclusions reads:
“The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.”
Tom Jefferson, the lead author, then said:
“There is just no evidence that they” — masks — “make any difference,” he told the journalist Maryanne Demasi. “Full stop.”
Sounds pretty firm to me!
This says to me that you can’t conclude anything. And that’s fine. Unfortunately that’s not what the press reported.
I also find it interesting that they left out a study by Andrejcko et al from the CDC IN 2022. I don’t know, politics maybe?

I think they listed the limiting factors for including studies. If I had to guess, it was because this wasn't peer reviewed and was a telephone based survey that wasn't a true RCT.

 

[goldmom]

We had a poster here in the old Locker Room, prior to the switch, who was transitioning from male to female. She started a thread allowing us to ask any questions we wanted. It was very informative getting first hand thoughts and information. She posts on the Iowa off topic site now. Everything is generally respectful when the topic comes up.

And that poster is one of my favorites-I’m glad you mentioned this. Thx! 🤗

 

[goldmom]

CT also had early deaths, but cause was listed as pneumonia and other things as primary cause of death.

On the coroner's reports in CT, there are two boxes for this, primary and secondary. Initially, primary cause of death was not listed as COVID. CT's numbers align closer to NY numbers in the early days of COVID, with the peak of deaths being April 23, 2020., and being primarily in Fairfield Co., a no-brainer since there are so many people commuting to and from NYC on trains.

The mask mandate in CT began on April 20, 2020. After that time, the deaths were greatly reduced. There was a spike in cases January 2022, but not the high death rate from 2020. The mask mandate was reduced May 19 2021.

But, as with anything, the other side will always say it isn't true.

People who have seen it "up front and personal", see it differently than people who haven't had the experience.

But, CT did not move people into nursing homes, so what accounted for their high death rates?

Fairfield is CT’s most densely populated county and you’re correct there’s a significant number of daily commuters into NYC on enclosed trains with exposure to an easily shed viral contagion. After that, April is when people also began isolating so that along with masks, gloves, and copious amounts of hand sanitizers did begin to limit the spread. I know I took a one month leave from my job - during which over half of my fellow employees got Covid and one died.

 

[goldmom]

So how do you explain New York? Almost identical case and death numbers as Florida but with different approaches to lockdowns and masking.

Far more elderly people living in retirement settings with pre-existing co-morbidities

 

[goldmom]

The Delta variant hit New York at the same time as Florida. The disparity in daily deaths was great. New York did not have a spike that approached 400 deaths per day after the initial one. Their largest spike after that one was in the beginning of 2022 with Omicron when both states saw around 200 per day.

It’s hard for many to wrap our heads around the incredible number of people who go into Manhattan on a daily basis to work - and to understand how many stayed home to work remotely - even to this day. That was definitely a helpful factor for them in stopping the spread.
No matter who or what or why it was slowed I know I’m grateful.
And I’m also grateful that despite my vaccinations I was able to get a Regeneron treatment our state set up when I contracted Covid anyway.

 

[rtpnole]

I think they listed the limiting factors for including studies. If I had to guess, it was because this wasn't peer reviewed and was a telephone based survey that wasn't a true RCT.

Absolutely, not all studies are created equal. Makes it hard to apply weight to the good, properly run ones.

 

[F4Gary]

And that poster is one of my favorites-I’m glad you mentioned this. Thx! 🤗

TarponSpringsNole....I think.

 

[BrianNole777]

I am a member of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health (USPATH) and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which develops and publishes the standards of care for working with transgender people for the healthcare profession. We are now on the 8th version of the standards, which can be read here: https://www.wpath.org/soc8

I work with a lot of transgender people, including providing the mental health evaluations that are required prior to any gender affirming medical treatment. For people seeking gender affirming surgery, they have to obtain two independent evaluations from mental health professionals prior to proceeding.

In these evaluations, we have to attest to the following circumstances:
1) Persistent, well documented, marked, and sustained gender dysphoria
2) No co-occurring conditions which could impair a clear diagnosis of gender dysphoria
3) No current mental health conditions which would negatively impact the outcome of gender affirming medical treatments
4) No current medical conditions which would negatively impact the outcome of gender affirming medical treatments
5) The patient has the capacity to consent for the specific physical treatment prior to the initiation of this treatment, including to engage in an informed discussion with the treating provider to understand the effects of the gender affirming procedure on fertility and reproductive options prior to the treatment, if the treatment will impact fertility.
6) Fertility considerations with the patient as well as options for fertility preservation have been discussed.
7) The patient has socially transitioned and found that this alone did not provide adequate relief of their gender dysphoria
8) The patient has been on hormone therapy for at least 6 months to two years prior to the surgery
9) The patient has realistic expectations with regards to this surgery, and are adequately prepared for potential complications or less-than-satisfactory outcomes
10) There are no other factors that could impact surgery and recovery, including housing status and stability, mobility factors, disability, cognitive impairments, substance use, tobacco use, domestic violence, or any other concerns.
11) A verified person identified by name who will assist with transportation to and from surgery, aftercare, meals, cleaning, grocery store and pharmacy runs, etc.

These are the minimum requirements that must be met. Most providers have more extensive criteria.

Question:

Are there any studies that you know of about transgender people that transition surgically and regret that choice 10 years down the road?

I'm also curious if suicide attempt rates for transgender people (currently 40%) go up or down 10 years after they surgically transition?

Do you know?

 

[BrianNole777]

Regret rates for gender affirming surgeries are among the lowest for any surgeries, with recent metanalyses placing the rate between 0.3 and 1%.

Suicidality is dramatically reduced for transgender people who receive gender affirming surgery, with estimates ranging from approximately 40% reduction to more than 70% reduction, depending on the study.

How long after these surgeries is follow up?

Are any of these studies 10+ years after surgery?

 

[BrianNole777]

Brian, you are exhausting. I am done and going on vacation to the mountains for the weekend.

I certainly didn't mean to be exhausting. I thought my question was highly relevant to this topic.

If the studies of transgender people are made recently after their surgery, that will be different then their experience 10+ years later.

That's why I'm curious.

Have a nice weekend.

 

[bcherod]

I am a member of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health (USPATH) and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which develops and publishes the standards of care for working with transgender people for the healthcare profession. We are now on the 8th version of the standards, which can be read here: https://www.wpath.org/soc8

I work with a lot of transgender people, including providing the mental health evaluations that are required prior to any gender affirming medical treatment. For people seeking gender affirming surgery, they have to obtain two independent evaluations from mental health professionals prior to proceeding.

In these evaluations, we have to attest to the following circumstances:
1) Persistent, well documented, marked, and sustained gender dysphoria
2) No co-occurring conditions which could impair a clear diagnosis of gender dysphoria
3) No current mental health conditions which would negatively impact the outcome of gender affirming medical treatments
4) No current medical conditions which would negatively impact the outcome of gender affirming medical treatments
5) The patient has the capacity to consent for the specific physical treatment prior to the initiation of this treatment, including to engage in an informed discussion with the treating provider to understand the effects of the gender affirming procedure on fertility and reproductive options prior to the treatment, if the treatment will impact fertility.
6) Fertility considerations with the patient as well as options for fertility preservation have been discussed.
7) The patient has socially transitioned and found that this alone did not provide adequate relief of their gender dysphoria
8) The patient has been on hormone therapy for at least 6 months to two years prior to the surgery
9) The patient has realistic expectations with regards to this surgery, and are adequately prepared for potential complications or less-than-satisfactory outcomes
10) There are no other factors that could impact surgery and recovery, including housing status and stability, mobility factors, disability, cognitive impairments, substance use, tobacco use, domestic violence, or any other concerns.
11) A verified person identified by name who will assist with transportation to and from surgery, aftercare, meals, cleaning, grocery store and pharmacy runs, etc.

These are the minimum requirements that must be met. Most providers have more extensive criteria.

Thank you for this.

I am sure that the majority of those posting, clearly do not understand the broader scope of things.

There are things that people cannot understand because they do not have the experience either through therapy or teaching.

It's great for people to sit in their ivory castles and pass judgement. Things are not aways the way we want them to be, but there is a way, and all of us need to find a way that we can understand today's world without being so judgemental.

 

[BrianNole777]

Thank you for this.

I am sure that the majority of those posting, clearly do not understand the broader scope of things.

There are things that people cannot understand because they do not have the experience either through therapy or teaching.

It's great for people to sit in their ivory castles and pass judgement. Things are not aways the way we want them to be, but there is a way, and all of us need to find a way that we can understand today's world without being so judgemental.

You just passed judgment on people in "ivory castles that pass judgment."

Just saying.

 

[DFSNOLE]

I certainly didn't mean to be exhausting. I thought my question was highly relevant to this topic.

If the studies of transgender people are made recently after their surgery, that will be different then their experience 10+ years later.

That's why I'm curious.

Have a nice weekend.

It's also why God made Google. You have the ability to do the research yourself. Try it once in a while.

 

[bcherod]

You just passed judgment on people in "ivory castles that pass judgment."

Just saying.

I was waiting for someone to chime in and say this. You didn't disappoint.

 

[surfnole]

Some levity.

 

[BrianNole777]

It's also why God made Google. You have the ability to do the research yourself. Try it once in a while.

I asked BrainVision because it's germane to the discussion here.

 

[DFSNOLE]

I asked BrainVision because it's germane to the discussion here.

Maybe if you posted the results of your research and asked if he concurred, he wouldn't find you so exhausting.

 

[goldmom]

I’m just hoping BV makes it back home safely from the mountains, knowing that they’ve had such a time with the heavy snow around Big Bear and that whole area.

 

[MagNoleA]

I have a friend whose grandfather committed suicide and whose father committed suicide. He was getting worried about 15 years ago.

That's very sad to hear. The generation to generation thing can have a genetic factor; as well as a "learned" behavioral factor. So many suicides are from people never treated for Major Depression; and yet there are many who attempt/commit suicide despite past or even ongoing treatment. There is such a sense of isolating darkness out there. I hope your friend seeks professional help if/when he may need it.

 

[MagNoleA]

I’m just hoping BV makes it back home safely from the mountains, knowing that they’ve had such a time with the heavy snow around Big Bear and that whole area.

BV? Never mind......

 

[bcherod]

You just passed judgment on people in "ivory castles that pass judgment."

Just saying.

But, do you really understand what that means?

It was qualified in the entire post, as I said, people who have no experience passing judgement.

Teachers and therapists have a lot of experience dealing with these things.

And, before you nit pick that statement, imagine this. I do not know tax law at all, nor would I ever claim to know anything about tax law. I have zero experience with tax law, other than my estate attorney and my accountant.

I would never dream of passing judgement or even making a suggestion to someone as to what they should do regarding taxes.

So it's ironic that a lot of people make statements regarding a subject in which they have zero experience.

 

[BrianNole777]

But, do you really understand what that means?

It was qualified in the entire post, as I said, people who have no experience passing judgement.

Teachers and therapists have a lot of experience dealing with these things.

And, before you nit pick that statement, imagine this. I do not know tax law at all, nor would I ever claim to know anything about tax law. I have zero experience with tax law, other than my estate attorney and my accountant.

I would never dream of passing judgement or even making a suggestion to someone as to what they should do regarding taxes.

So it's ironic that a lot of people make statements regarding a subject in which they have zero experience.

My point is that everyone judges behavior. It's impossible not to unless one is a complete nihilist, but nihilism is a judgment, too.

If someone decided to not pay taxes, you wouldn't judge that choice?

 

[bcherod]

My point is that everyone judges behavior. It's impossible not to unless one is a complete nihilist, but nihilism is a judgment, too.

If someone decided to not pay taxes, you wouldn't judge that choice?

Actually no. It's their problem, not mine.

There's a saying, "not my monkeys, not my circus". I view a lot of things that way.

But, now that you bring it up, I apply that to everyone and everything. Reality is that we have control over only what we do. Not what others do.

I have a cousin that is a gay minister, and she's married to her partner. Her preference is none of my business, and her choices have no affect on me nor my life in general. It's senseless to worry about it or to spend time on it.

I have a lot of friends that profess to be non-binary. I don't think in those terms, but once again, none of my business.

Same thing goes for two friends of mine having an affair. I love both of them. I'd never get involved with someone who is married, but once again, none of my business. Another friend of ours tried to engage me in talking about it and my reply was "I really don't know, and it's none of my business."

There's a lot of things that people do that I don't agree with, things that I wouldn't do, but I am not going to get my knickers in a twist about what they're doing. Honestly, worrying about things that you have no control over is not worth the tsuris.

 

[bcherod]

JMGNole, a good friend of mine, has a saying in his signature. Quit looking for things to be mad about.

We have several posters that seem to thrive on finding things to be mad about, and people to hate on.

 

[fsufool]

I am a member of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health (USPATH) and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which develops and publishes the standards of care for working with transgender people for the healthcare profession. We are now on the 8th version of the standards, which can be read here: https://www.wpath.org/soc8

I work with a lot of transgender people, including providing the mental health evaluations that are required prior to any gender affirming medical treatment. For people seeking gender affirming surgery, they have to obtain two independent evaluations from mental health professionals prior to proceeding.

In these evaluations, we have to attest to the following circumstances:
1) Persistent, well documented, marked, and sustained gender dysphoria
2) No co-occurring conditions which could impair a clear diagnosis of gender dysphoria
3) No current mental health conditions which would negatively impact the outcome of gender affirming medical treatments
4) No current medical conditions which would negatively impact the outcome of gender affirming medical treatments
5) The patient has the capacity to consent for the specific physical treatment prior to the initiation of this treatment, including to engage in an informed discussion with the treating provider to understand the effects of the gender affirming procedure on fertility and reproductive options prior to the treatment, if the treatment will impact fertility.
6) Fertility considerations with the patient as well as options for fertility preservation have been discussed.
7) The patient has socially transitioned and found that this alone did not provide adequate relief of their gender dysphoria
8) The patient has been on hormone therapy for at least 6 months to two years prior to the surgery
9) The patient has realistic expectations with regards to this surgery, and are adequately prepared for potential complications or less-than-satisfactory outcomes
10) There are no other factors that could impact surgery and recovery, including housing status and stability, mobility factors, disability, cognitive impairments, substance use, tobacco use, domestic violence, or any other concerns.
11) A verified person identified by name who will assist with transportation to and from surgery, aftercare, meals, cleaning, grocery store and pharmacy runs, etc.

These are the minimum requirements that must be met. Most providers have more extensive criteria.

Thanks for your inside viewpoint.
Allow me to ask a few questions. I ask these questions because I have no personal knowledge of the phenomenon and as a natural skeptic have seen a lot of detransitioners go public with their experiences. In graduate school one of my concentrations was Sociology of Medicine and read extensively on the history of medicine which has continuously performed medical procedures that had little or faulty science behind it and did harm to patients. I also note that the countries that once led in this care, are now turning back to a more measured, non-invasive approach to children.

Why have several European countries now backing off of chemical use in children in favor of psychotherapeutic care and the USA has not?

Here is what Sweden has most recently published:

Following a comprehensive review of evidence, the NBHW concluded that the evidence base for hormonal interventions for gender-dysphoric youth is of low quality, and that hormonal treatments may carry risks. NBHW also concluded that the evidence for pediatric transition comes from studies where the population was markedly different from the cases presenting for care today. In addition, NBHW noted increasing reports of detransition and transition-related regret among youth who transitioned in recent years.

NBHW emphasized the need to treat gender dysphoric youth with dignity and respect, while providing high quality, evidence-based medical care that prioritizes long-term health. NBHW also emphasized that identity formation in youth is an evolving process, and that the experience of natural puberty is a vital step in the development of the overall identity, as well as gender identity.

In light of above limitations in the evidence base, the ongoing identity formation in youth, and in view of the fact that gender transition has pervasive and lifelong consequences, the NBHW has concluded that, at present, the risks of hormonal interventions for gender dysphoric youth outweigh the potential benefits.

As a result of this determination, the eligibility for pediatric gender transition with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones in Sweden will be sharply curtailed. Only a minority of gender dysphoric youth—those with the “classic” childhood onset of cross-sex identification and distress, which persist and cause clear suffering in adolescence—will be considered as potentially eligible for hormonal interventions, pending additional, extensive multidisciplinary evaluation.

• Growing visibility of detransition/regret: New knowledge about detransition in young adults challenges prior assumption of low regret, and the fact that most do not tell practitioners about their detransition could indicate that detransition rates have been underestimated.

Access to hormonal interventions for youth <18 will be tightly restricted. The goal is to administer these interventions in research settings only, and to restrict eligibility criteria to mirror those in the “Dutch protocol.”

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

Current WPATH Protocol which you said you worked on which Sweden and other countries are changing from:

• There should be a general assumption to treat with hormones and surgeries. Mental health assessments are important but can also be abbreviated (see SOC8 draft "Assessment" section).

What are we to make of the well-known lack of adherence to gender norms among ASD individuals which could lead them to misattribute their experience to being “transgender” and inappropriately transition and the amount of people with ASD that have been transgendered in centers in the US and Europe?

What is going on with the rapidly increasing amount of transgender youth, particularly the dramatic increase of teenage girls whose gender dysphoria appears with the onset of puberty or later?

It appears to me this is where a lot of the regret/de-transitioning is occurring.

Do teenage girls who are just developing their identities and learning to deal with all that goes with womenhood really have the capacity to permanently kill their fertility and/or decide to surgical remove their newly developed breasts?

One more:

How confident are you and your peers that given all that has happened in the last couple years (whistle blowers documenting lack of adherence to standards, evidence of damage of cross-sex hormones, increasing amounts of regret, etc.) you can adequately separate out various mental health issues and correctly deliver medical treatments to children that does no harm?

Thanks for your patience in this.

 

[bcherod]

Thanks for your inside viewpoint.
Allow me to ask a few questions. I ask these questions because I have no personal knowledge of the phenomenon and as a natural skeptic have seen a lot of detransitioners go public with their experiences. In graduate school one of my concentrations was Sociology of Medicine and read extensively on the history of medicine which has continuously performed medical procedures that had little or faulty science behind it and did harm to patients. I also note that the countries that once led in this care, are now turning back to a more measured, non-invasive approach to children.

Why have several European countries now backing off of chemical use in children in favor of psychotherapeutic care and the USA has not?

Here is what Sweden has most recently published:

Following a comprehensive review of evidence, the NBHW concluded that the evidence base for hormonal interventions for gender-dysphoric youth is of low quality, and that hormonal treatments may carry risks. NBHW also concluded that the evidence for pediatric transition comes from studies where the population was markedly different from the cases presenting for care today. In addition, NBHW noted increasing reports of detransition and transition-related regret among youth who transitioned in recent years.

NBHW emphasized the need to treat gender dysphoric youth with dignity and respect, while providing high quality, evidence-based medical care that prioritizes long-term health. NBHW also emphasized that identity formation in youth is an evolving process, and that the experience of natural puberty is a vital step in the development of the overall identity, as well as gender identity.

In light of above limitations in the evidence base, the ongoing identity formation in youth, and in view of the fact that gender transition has pervasive and lifelong consequences, the NBHW has concluded that, at present, the risks of hormonal interventions for gender dysphoric youth outweigh the potential benefits.

As a result of this determination, the eligibility for pediatric gender transition with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones in Sweden will be sharply curtailed. Only a minority of gender dysphoric youth—those with the “classic” childhood onset of cross-sex identification and distress, which persist and cause clear suffering in adolescence—will be considered as potentially eligible for hormonal interventions, pending additional, extensive multidisciplinary evaluation.

• Growing visibility of detransition/regret: New knowledge about detransition in young adults challenges prior assumption of low regret, and the fact that most do not tell practitioners about their detransition could indicate that detransition rates have been underestimated.

Access to hormonal interventions for youth <18 will be tightly restricted. The goal is to administer these interventions in research settings only, and to restrict eligibility criteria to mirror those in the “Dutch protocol.”

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

Current WPATH Protocol which you said you worked on which Sweden and other countries are changing from:

• There should be a general assumption to treat with hormones and surgeries. Mental health assessments are important but can also be abbreviated (see SOC8 draft "Assessment" section).

What are we to make of the well-known lack of adherence to gender norms among ASD individuals which could lead them to misattribute their experience to being “transgender” and inappropriately transition and the amount of people with ASD that have been transgendered in centers in the US and Europe?

What is going on with the rapidly increasing amount of transgender youth, particularly the dramatic increase of teenage girls whose gender dysphoria appears with the onset of puberty or later?

It appears to me this is where a lot of the regret/de-transitioning is occurring.

Do teenage girls who are just developing their identities and learning to deal with all that goes with womenhood really have the capacity to permanently kill their fertility and/or decide to surgical remove their newly developed breasts?

One more:

How confident are you and your peers that given all that has happened in the last couple years (whistle blowers documenting lack of adherence to standards, evidence of damage of cross-sex hormones, increasing amounts of regret, etc.) you can adequately separate out various mental health issues and correctly deliver medical treatments to children that does no harm?

Thanks for your patience in this.

First of all, let me say that I greatly appreciate your posts and find you an intelligent person that studies subjects and evaluates your findings. And I respect your opinions.

That said, I had a very good friend that was Swedish. She would often talk about the US and the fact that they allowed people to be homeless. I asked her what they did in Sweden, and she told me they pick them up and put them somewhere. I explained to her that we cannot do this here. We cannot force a person, (with mental illness), to be institutionalized against their will because our government decided back in the '70's that people needed to be released from institutions. We could not hold them against their will. It was determined, at that time, that people that did not want to be in an institution would be allowed to leave.

It was 1974 and I had just started my first post FSU job. One of my clients had recently been released from Chattahoochee. Her companion was a broom, seriously. She talked to her broom.

Here we are almost 50 years later. We are still catering to the patient, but this time, it's not coming from altruistic sources. Now, it is based on greed from primarily big pharma. They want to sell their drugs. Do you really think they care about the kid? Now it's the therapists trying to sort it out.

In my experience as a teacher, I had a friend that was the college counselor at school. Her daughter was one of my advisees. Trust me, I would have been happy if the daughter would just have been gay. I really loved that kid who is now almost 40. But she needed a lot of therapy, and her mother saw to it that she had it, but she really wanted to be a guy. So, after a period of time, 5 years or so, she transitioned. Her mother was not thrilled about it, but what are you going to do? It's your kid. So you love and support your child.

I could never imagine hating on a kid, especially that one.

All in all, this was 20 years ago. That was before anything was being taught in schools relating to gender, and it was before we added all the letters to the LBGTQ whatever.

More on this... I recently found out that one of my high school friends is a drag queen star. He recently lost his husband. He's still the guy that was a cool friend of mine in high school in Japan. I don't consider him a freak.

 

[GeddyLee09]

Gay nightclub stokes backlash for sign asserting two biological genders: 'Transphobic'

CRUZ, the only gay bar in Christchurch, New Zealand, prompted accusations of transphobia for displaying a sign suggesting there are only two genders and that women are real.

www.foxnews.com

Fun story from New Zealand.

 

[bcherod]

Gay nightclub stokes backlash for sign asserting two biological genders: 'Transphobic'

CRUZ, the only gay bar in Christchurch, New Zealand, prompted accusations of transphobia for displaying a sign suggesting there are only two genders and that women are real.

www.foxnews.com

Fun story from New Zealand.

Oh lordy, the fear is spreading.

 

[fsufool]

First of all, let me say that I greatly appreciate your posts and find you an intelligent person that studies subjects and evaluates your findings. And I respect your opinions.

That said, I had a very good friend that was Swedish. She would often talk about the US and the fact that they allowed people to be homeless. I asked her what they did in Sweden, and she told me they pick them up and put them somewhere. I explained to her that we cannot do this here. We cannot force a person, (with mental illness), to be institutionalized against their will because our government decided back in the '70's that people needed to be released from institutions. We could not hold them against their will. It was determined, at that time, that people that did not want to be in an institution would be allowed to leave.

It was 1974 and I had just started my first post FSU job. One of my clients had recently been released from Chattahoochee. Her companion was a broom, seriously. She talked to her broom.

Here we are almost 50 years later. We are still catering to the patient, but this time, it's not coming from altruistic sources. Now, it is based on greed from primarily big pharma. They want to sell their drugs. Do you really think they care about the kid? Now it's the therapists trying to sort it out.

In my experience as a teacher, I had a friend that was the college counselor at school. Her daughter was one of my advisees. Trust me, I would have been happy if the daughter would just have been gay. I really loved that kid who is now almost 40. But she needed a lot of therapy, and her mother saw to it that she had it, but she really wanted to be a guy. So, after a period of time, 5 years or so, she transitioned. Her mother was not thrilled about it, but what are you going to do? It's your kid. So you love and support your child.

I could never imagine hating on a kid, especially that one.

All in all, this was 20 years ago. That was before anything was being taught in schools relating to gender, and it was before we added all the letters to the LBGTQ whatever.

More on this... I recently found out that one of my high school friends is a drag queen star. He recently lost his husband. He's still the guy that was a cool friend of mine in high school in Japan. I don't consider him a freak.

I have 4 friends who have transgender children, now adults. Treat them all with respect. My personal feelings are that what an ADULT does is on them. What we do to CHILDREN is a very different matter. And I most definitely think that there has been an industry that benefits from childhood transition has taken over. And no matter how loud trans-activist are, how much in the face they are, won't change the basic facts.

I knew nothing about all this 15 months ago or so other than those children/adults of our friends. Then a Penn Swimmer that was a couple of years ago swimming on the men's team (and was good), started to swim very fast times for the women's team. And then other team members and their parents started to whistleblow about how Penn was silencing them and even threatening them. As an ex-swimmer I found this amazing. Also, someone I knew from back then, was a leader in pushing Title 9 and pushing against sexual violence from coaches toward their swimmers. I followed her Facebook group and was a fan of her work. She started to push back against trans females competing against cis females.

My....... have I been radicalized against the pharmaceutical/surgical transitioning of children as young as 14 (although 15 seems to be where the transitions really tick up) that is going on in the USA. I will also note that several countries that were leaders in pharmaceutical/surgical transitions (Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark) have now gone to a different, psychological approach, because they are now realizing the mental health issues these folks have aside from gender dysphoria. And in England and in the USA we have seen whistleblowers that paint a very ugly picture of what has been going on in these medical centers for the last 5-8 years.

I still believe there are a very small percentage, well under .1% of adults that can alleviate their gender dysphoria by transitioning, but hopefully what they give up is worth it. (fertility, pleasurable sex, years of their lives, etc.)

 

[bcherod]

I have 4 friends who have transgender children, now adults. Treat them all with respect. My personal feelings are that what an ADULT does is on them. What we do to CHILDREN is a very different matter. And I most definitely think that there has been an industry that benefits from childhood transition has taken over. And no matter how loud trans-activist are, how much in the face they are, won't change the basic facts.

I knew nothing about all this 15 months ago or so other than those children/adults of our friends. Then a Penn Swimmer that was a couple of years ago swimming on the men's team (and was good), started to swim very fast times for the women's team. And then other team members and their parents started to whistleblow about how Penn was silencing them and even threatening them. As an ex-swimmer I found this amazing. Also, someone I knew from back then, was a leader in pushing Title 9 and pushing against sexual violence from coaches toward their swimmers. I followed her Facebook group and was a fan of her work. She started to push back against trans females competing against cis females.

My....... have I been radicalized against the pharmaceutical/surgical transitioning of children as young as 14 (although 15 seems to be where the transitions really tick up) that is going on in the USA. I will also note that several countries that were leaders in pharmaceutical/surgical transitions (Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark) have now gone to a different, psychological approach, because they are now realizing the mental health issues these folks have aside from gender dysphoria. And in England and in the USA we have seen whistleblowers that paint a very ugly picture of what has been going on in these medical centers for the last 5-8 years.

I still believe there are a very small percentage, well under .1% of adults that can alleviate their gender dysphoria by transitioning, but hopefully what they give up is worth it. (fertility, pleasurable sex, years of their lives, etc.)

Great post, as usual.

Basically, the problem here is the age. I happen to agree with what you've said.

Also, my trans friends, some who are truly trans and others who just like to act female, all agree that they shouldn't be competing in sports.

There is middle ground here, but once big pharma gets involved, they don't care.

One of my friends would not let her then daughter trans until after she was 18. Today, she is a happy he. I have no issue with that.

What I do have issue with, is people going to the extremes, on either side.

We can always find a way for all of us to get along. What's curious to me is that some don't want to get along, and that, overall, is my biggest issue.

That said, in 1977, I worked a WTA tournament in Brazil. I was in charge of hospitality and transportation. That meant, for one thing, that I had to take the players shopping.

It was a major mix of various players, and one of them was Renée Richards. She won a lot of matches, but there is no way on the planet she should have been competing with the rest of the field. There was a definite advantage, and no way she should be beating the top ranked female players in the '70's. She simply wasn't that good. I don't even think she was ranked when prior to her transgendering.