Harold Baines was elected into the baseball HOF?
- Thread starter GwinnettNole
- Start date
I don't know if he's deserving of the HOF but I do know that baseball was very, very, good to him.Chico Escuela deserves to be in the HOF before Baines!
No, Western New York.
Yeah, I'm from Buffalo...nobody from the area calls themselves upstate, but for people in NYC everything not NYC is "upstate NY".
Ha! My parents are from NYC and always referred to anything north of Yonkers upstate.
It gets interesting when you start comparing players at different positions, such as Bonds to Bench or even Rose (though Rose could play a lot more positions than Bonds, which IMO gives him an advantage).
Personally I would take Griffey over Bonds, and I would also take Mays over Bonds. I know Griffey started having some injury issues, and slowed later in his career. We all know steroids help players heal quicker, so had he been a user there is no telling how much longer he would have played at a top level, and thus what his stats would have been.
That is my biggest issue that a lot of people don't mention. It is always mentioned that steroids didn't help Bonds hit the ball, that was a God given talent. I agree with that assessment. However, they did help him stay healthy longer and recover quicker, which gave him an advantage...that others were also getting by using in that time period.
Now I do agree with what was mentioned above. The armor Bonds wore on his elbow helped him a lot more than the steroids IMO. It must have been nice knowing you could lean over the plate, take one on the elbow and not feel it. It's one thing to wear something to protect yourself from a foul ball or to protect an injury. It is another to wear something like that to get an advantage and just wear it all the time. Other players wear that crap, and I am against it for them as well.
All right DFS...
The five tools are:
1. Hitting for average - Bonds' career BA was (I think) below the others at .298, but he is second among them in total times on base (behind only Rose), which would include walks, which he's the career leader in. He's 6th in career on base %, above the others you listed.
2. Hitting for power- Bonds is the career HR leader and is 5th in career slugging %, above those you listed.
3. Baserunning skills - Bonds is 34th all time in stolen bases, above those you listed.
4. Throwing ability - Bonds is 7th in career assists from a left fielder, and 21st in career double plays turned by left fielders
5. Fielding ability - Bonds is the career leader in putouts by a left fielder
Overall, he's first in career WAR for position players.
There are a bunch of fielding stats that I don't have the time to learn about - like "Total zone runs", "Range factor/9inn", etc.
The quick and easy response to those numbers, especially the power one's, is how many of those came after his hat size grew exponentially?
I know I'm not much of a traditionalist, but I don't hold steroids against anything him or others who *might* have been taking something accomplished.
1. I think they were still largely on a level playing ground compared to thoe they were competing against because so many pitchers and hitters were probably on something. Especially the pitchers- the hitters get most of the criticism, but I believe more pitchers were taking steroids, and then HGH, because of the impact it had on recovery.
2. Baseball knew exactly what was going on and chose to ignore it until they were forced to address it. They game was extremely popular and the owners were making a lot of money. If baseball knew and didn't stop it, then anything achieved during that time should stand.
I'm not saying that the stats shouldn't stand but when comparing players who played their entire career without ingesting steroids versus those who did, adjustments must be considered. Bonds' homerun and slugging numbers would certainly be lower IMO without the benefit of PEDs. And, if you adjust those numbers, the argument that he's the best player in one's lifetime weakens.
Sure, I get it. But doesn't it only matter if only the hitter was taking them? If both the hitter and the pitcher were taking them, then doesn't it kind of net out?
I agree with a post made back on the first page that Bonds' elbow armor likely had a bigger impact on his offensive numbers than the steroids might have. You take away the fear of the inside pitch and you get a big advantage.
Oh well, I know there's no right answer, which is what makes it fun. I just know that I've never seen a hitter as feared as Bonds was. He'd go entire series where he may only see one hittable pitch - and he usually hit it.
You’re objectively wrong on Clemente and Rose. Unless you completely dismiss advanced metrics in which case there’s nothing to really discuss. Clemente stole 83 bases in his career and had 240 HRs. His OBP was solid at .359 but that doesn’t even sniff Bonds before steroids and neither do the power or base stealing numbers.
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