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Terry Crews disagrees with your sentiment that only women were held hostage to a culture of silence. As do numerous 80's (male) child actors.

Then again, I guess I should refrain from commenting since I'm a (white)male and lack the female perspective, as you suggested.

Good point as children have been victimized for years in this particular culture as well. If you were victimized as a child then I think it's important for you to share your experiences (if you can) and for those of us who were not to listen and then work to stop it.

However, I'm not aware of men being victimized the same way that both children and women have been in Hollywood, and once we look outside of Hollywood it's even different. Again, this is more than just a Hollywood discussion, this is an American discussion.
 
Ive worked in sales my entire career and have witnessed some pretty bad things happen in and out of the office. I can also say with complete honesty that I have been on both sides of it, neither which I felt good about. I have made it my responsibility for reaching and apologizing for things I have said when I was in my mid 20s(I'll be 40 in Feb) because what I thought was just kidding around then isnt what I would consider a joke as I have gotten older. I have also made sure to have a zero tolerance policy towards that behavior when I started having people work for me, even firing one guy because he did something stupid. Seeing how upset the victim was really hit me hard.

It's not just in the workplace either. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been, at minimum, catcalled. I've been groped in bars (guys will lean in when I'm trying to get by so they "accidentally" rub against my breasts or butt, and let's not talk about what they do with hands), followed (I stopped going to one class-lecture only- in college because I couldn't avoid one guy who wouldn't leave me alone even after I told him I wasn't interested), tracked down (most recently the neighbor's creepy older son who we thought was her brother for the longest time and an ex from over 10 years ago who had just gotten divorced), been called names/followed because I don't respond to catcalls ("it's a compliment! Smile!"). Friends have gotten roofied, friends have gotten sexually assaulted.

Even the "you should smile" comments we get are, at best, patronizing.
 
And no, this isn't just a woman thing either. Men are even less likely than women to come forward with regards to any sort of abuse and are less likely to be believed.

It's not even an American discussion. It's a world issue.
 
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White men run America and have been happily running the world their way without interference for centuries. As a white male, I think it's important to point out the evils we've perpetrated and allowed to continue unabated.
lol ok, got it
 
And no, this isn't just a woman thing either. Men are even less likely than women to come forward with regards to any sort of abuse and are less likely to be believed.

It's not even an American discussion. It's a world issue.
Agreed, I have a couple of stories in that regard.
 
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I don't think you can ever equate the female-male experience in this area. Not even close.

The crazy thing about Weinstein is the scope of what he did, and to some pretty well-known celebrities. To me the real breakdown is how he was able to operate unchecked for so long.

Regarding the catcalls and groping at a bar, etc., I'm not sure how you begin to legislate boorish behavior. Seems that has to be taught from childhood.
 
You can't legislate it. But raising your sons to be respectful and being strong, positive role models to your sons and daughters can help.

Oh, and not participating in the wouldja/rankems/catcalling/etc. Calling out that behavior when you see it. Stuff like that can help too.
 
I don't think you can ever equate the female-male experience in this area. Not even close.

The crazy thing about Weinstein is the scope of what he did, and to some pretty well-known celebrities. To me the real breakdown is how he was able to operate unchecked for so long.

Regarding the catcalls and groping at a bar, etc., I'm not sure how you begin to legislate boorish behavior. Seems that has to be taught from childhood.

It's got to be a cultural change and in my culture, a religious change. I was taught from childhood on up within my churches that men are incapable of handling our sexual urges and so to be certain that we don't go too far and have sex before marriage that we had to do things like follow Mike Pence's ridiculous rule about not ever being alone with women.

The affect that this teaching has on men as they age is that if we find ourselves naturally attracted to a woman and inclined to do something like catcall, touch her, follow, or even date rape is to say that it's their fault not ours. They know that we're this way, there's nothing we can do to change it and so if they want to be left alone they should dress more modestly, not be left alone with us, etc...

Frankly it's bullshit. You can control your sexual urges, you can look at women as equals in a workplace and not just a piece of eye candy, you can choose to look her in the eyes, not the breasts; you can choose to stop having sex if she says no or goes limp after a date. Those are all choices we are completely capable of making, but the culturalization of young men in this country has been that we have strong sexual urges that are too hard to control, that once we start having sex it's physically impossible to stop, that women are attractive and it's natural for us to want to take in that beauty, etc...

IF we want to change things, we need to start teaching our young boys and men a different way forward. But it's going to take adults, and marketers, and parents, and all of us deciding that it's something that should be changed.
 
It's not just in the workplace either. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been, at minimum, catcalled. I've been groped in bars (guys will lean in when I'm trying to get by so they "accidentally" rub against my breasts or butt, and let's not talk about what they do with hands), followed (I stopped going to one class-lecture only- in college because I couldn't avoid one guy who wouldn't leave me alone even after I told him I wasn't interested), tracked down (most recently the neighbor's creepy older son who we thought was her brother for the longest time and an ex from over 10 years ago who had just gotten divorced), been called names/followed because I don't respond to catcalls ("it's a compliment! Smile!"). Friends have gotten roofied, friends have gotten sexually assaulted.

Even the "you should smile" comments we get are, at best, patronizing.

Based on some of these examples I have absolutely been harassed. It's been a few years, but had a lot of girls come in to me and grab me in my privates and say dirty stuff while drunk in a bar.

But I personally don't think most of those examples should count (grabbing the private should count). Not being a gentleman and sexually assaulting someone should be two completely different things.

My feeling is that Sexually Assaulting is something criminal.
 
Based on some of these examples I have absolutely been harassed. It's been a few years, but had a lot of girls come in to me and grab me in my privates and say dirty stuff while drunk in a bar.

But I personally don't think most of those examples should count (grabbing the private should count). Not being a gentleman and sexually assaulting someone should be two completely different things.

My feeling is that Sexually Assaulting is something criminal.
They are, that's why there are two terms, "sexual harassment" and "sexual assault".

Neither is okay. Obviously.
 
Oh, and the "she's somebody's daughter" line or "I had no idea until I had a daughter" is...I'm not sure what. But apparently women don't count for actual humans unless we belong to someone else.
 
You can't legislate it. But raising your sons to be respectful and being strong, positive role models to your sons and daughters can help.

Oh, and not participating in the wouldja/rankems/catcalling/etc. Calling out that behavior when you see it. Stuff like that can help too.

Spot on. We can make a dent in this behavior, though some men will cry foul and cry we are deballing our society or some such tripe.

If the boorish behavior is the base of the pyramid and harder to stop, the sexual harassment and sexual assault are the next respective parts above it. So efforts aimed at weakening this base mentality absolutely needs to be and can be done.
 
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“I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.' Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers: Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.
― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help”
That, my friends, is what it’s like to be thought of as prey.

100% Awesome. 100% true.
 
100% Awesome. 100% true.

I think the only one I have never done is own a gun.

I live in a safe neighborhood in a safe city in a safe state...and I still keep my head up and pay attention to my surroundings when I walk the dog in the dark. I check the back seat. etc etc.

I was about 10 when we really started learning about the self defense stuff (keys, lighted areas, etc). Ten.
 
100% Awesome. 100% true.

Unless there is a race to win. Because you know, "if you drag a $100.00 bill through a trailer park, you never know what you may find". The difference between bimbo and victim is only a matter of perspective which is quiet easily publicly misdirected as we have seen with this case over 30+ years and in this thread.

We can all agree on issues of predators and prey. The question here is why in the hell do we continue to be the enablers?
 
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It's got to be a cultural change and in my culture, a religious change. I was taught from childhood on up within my churches that men are incapable of handling our sexual urges and so to be certain that we don't go too far and have sex before marriage that we had to do things like follow Mike Pence's ridiculous rule about not ever being alone with women.

The affect that this teaching has on men as they age is that if we find ourselves naturally attracted to a woman and inclined to do something like catcall, touch her, follow, or even date rape is to say that it's their fault not ours. They know that we're this way, there's nothing we can do to change it and so if they want to be left alone they should dress more modestly, not be left alone with us, etc...

Frankly it's bullshit. You can control your sexual urges, you can look at women as equals in a workplace and not just a piece of eye candy, you can choose to look her in the eyes, not the breasts; you can choose to stop having sex if she says no or goes limp after a date. Those are all choices we are completely capable of making, but the culturalization of young men in this country has been that we have strong sexual urges that are too hard to control, that once we start having sex it's physically impossible to stop, that women are attractive and it's natural for us to want to take in that beauty, etc...

IF we want to change things, we need to start teaching our young boys and men a different way forward. But it's going to take adults, and marketers, and parents, and all of us deciding that it's something that should be changed.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, but it appears you were taught some screwed up stuff growing up, most notably the bolded part above. I'm curious why you believe men, generally speaking, learned what you learned? (And therefore have to "unlearn" these backwards views).
 
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, but it appears you were taught some screwed up stuff growing up, most notably the bolded part above. I'm curious why you believe men, generally speaking, learned what you learned? (And therefore have to "unlearn" these backwards views).

Well considering our Vice President teaches that and many many Men believe that, and it originated with Billy Graham who most Protestants adore I think you've got a fairly large base of belief and structure within Protestant America.

And I don't believe all men need to unlearn that specific idea, but the idea that men are men and should simply be understood is prevalent in almost all American male culture, not just religious. Look at the number of people who fell all over themselves covering for Trump as just being a man, locker room talk, and just men being men.

There's long been an idea that men are sexual beings who have urges and women are there for that purpose and men just can't help but look at a woman's breasts, or consider her pretty before he considers her brains, etc... I gave a specific teaching, but there's hundreds of other ideas very similar across different culture groups in America and this isn't just associated with Fundamentalist religion but is found in our movies, in our music, in our CEO's boardrooms, and at the highest levels of political office.
 
Well considering our Vice President teaches that and many many Men believe that, and it originated with Billy Graham who most Protestants adore I think you've got a fairly large base of belief and structure within Protestant America.
I don't know if what you're saying is true. It may be, but I doubt it.

In any case, the only Protestants that practice or teach that kind of nonsense are the wackadoodle, cult-like sects...like Pentecostals.

You're not going to go to a Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, or Presbyterian church and be taught that you can't be a man left alone in a room with a woman. Just not gonna happen.
 
Billy Graham was reported to have been seen having dinner with another women which led to a media accusation of possible infidelity, old time fake news. From that point he made it a rule not to put himself in that situation of being with another women alone, excluding his wife. A situation where others could make such a claim without him having an alibi. Now somehow this simple gesture has been twisted over the years into something nefarious by the usual suspects.
 
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Billy Graham was reported to have been seen having dinner with another women which led to a media accusation of possible infidelity, old time fake news. From that point he made it a rule not to put himself in that situation of being with another women alone, excluding his wife. A situation where others could make such a claim without him having an alibi. Now somehow this simple gesture has been twisted over the years into something nefarious by the usual suspects.
Gotcha.

Let’s be clear though...what Pence does/believes is creepy as hell though.
 
Gotcha.

Let’s be clear though...what Pence does/believes is creepy as hell though.
I find it ironic that many on the left are hoping for any way possible to get Trump out of office when...if anything...he's been moderate to center-left politically throughout his pre-political life. If they were to get their wish, his replacement Pence is so far to the right that if it actually was a flat earth, he'd fall off.
 
I don't know if what you're saying is true. It may be, but I doubt it.

In any case, the only Protestants that practice or teach that kind of nonsense are the wackadoodle, cult-like sects...like Pentecostals.

You're not going to go to a Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, or Presbyterian church and be taught that you can't be a man left alone in a room with a woman. Just not gonna happen.

Before Mike Pence made a big deal of it, it was Billy Graham who made this rule famous. It's not just the Pentecostals that believe this stuff. I know many, many Baptists who do. As far as I'm aware Mike Pence isn't Pentecostal and he's probably the most famous with this belief. Most "Evangelical" churches (Who happen to be the largest group right now) teach this as well.

Sure, I'll agree with you that most Lutherans, Episcopalians, and some Methodists (Although not all) would not.
 
I find it ironic that many on the left are hoping for any way possible to get Trump out of office when...if anything...he's been moderate to center-left politically throughout his pre-political life. If they were to get their wish, his replacement Pence is so far to the right that if it actually was a flat earth, he'd fall off.

If Trump hadn't been taken over by the alt-right wing of fascist conservatism I'd agree with you and if Trump wasn't likely to get us involved in a major war just to satisfy his ego I'd also agree. Pence scares the hell out of me more than almost any other President aside from Trump because he'll get his crazy policies pushed through with a civil smile on his face, and after the fiasco that has been Donald Trump, most people would take it as a great step forward.
 
If Trump hadn't been taken over by the alt-right wing of fascist conservatism I'd agree with you and if Trump wasn't likely to get us involved in a major war just to satisfy his ego I'd also agree. Pence scares the hell out of me more than almost any other President aside from Trump because he'll get his crazy policies pushed through with a civil smile on his face, and after the fiasco that has been Donald Trump, most people would take it as a great step forward.
Nothing in your post disagreed with mine.
 
Before Mike Pence made a big deal of it, it was Billy Graham who made this rule famous. It's not just the Pentecostals that believe this stuff. I know many, many Baptists who do. As far as I'm aware Mike Pence isn't Pentecostal and he's probably the most famous with this belief. Most "Evangelical" churches (Who happen to be the largest group right now) teach this as well.

Sure, I'll agree with you that most Lutherans, Episcopalians, and some Methodists (Although not all) would not.
Google is my friend. Pence actually identifies as an "evangelical Catholic".
 
Why kill the thread?

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