OSHA weighs in on science

SteveT1

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OSHA determined it, so I guess it's so.

"3. Prior COVID-19 infections. OSHA determined that workers who have been infected with COVID-19 but have not been fully vaccinated still face a grave danger from workplace exposure to SARS-CoV-2. This is an area of ongoing scientific inquiry. Given scientific uncertainty and limitations in testing for infection and immunity, OSHA is concerned that it would be infeasible for employers to operationalize a standard that would permit or require an exception from vaccination or testing and face covering based on prior infection with COVID-19."

But given the significant scientific uncertainty on the efficacy and long term side effects of the covid vaccines, in addition to the vaccine not really stopping infections or transmissions, OSHA's "concern" seems disingenuous at best.
 

SteveT1

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"[G]iven that SARS-CoV-2 is still a novel virus, the severity of long-term health effects—such as “post-COVID conditions”—are not yet fully understood."

Same can be said of the vaccination. Neither will be fully understood absent the passage of time.

How much consideration did OSHA give to vaccine side effects? Only enough to require 2-days paid leave for recovery.
 

GbrNole

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as a brief aside, OSHA also killed their prior rule that if an injury occurs that is related to a workplace vaccination requirement that such injury be covered under workman's compensation.
 
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SteveT1

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For what it's worth, they're seeking comment on extending the mandate to employers with fewer than 100 employees.
 

divinnole

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I am a member of an Industrial alliance for the northern gulf coast. We had our annual meeting (the 1st in person meeting in 2 years) last Thursday in Mobile Al. The alliance is comprised of dozens of major construction construction companies and fabrication companies such as Ingalls Ship yards. Most of the construction companies have jobs going on all the US and many while working in the gulf coast area also have projects going on globally. So these are some very big guns in the industry. A lot of the discussions centered on upcoming OSHA mandate. The general consensus with the group (over 100 present) was if the mandate is enacted we could expect to see 100s of thousands jobs lost and a lot of major industry come to a grinding halt.
 
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SteveT1

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I fired 3 people from my firm last week for failure to vaccinate. And I’ll fire plenty more. They certainly have a right not to vaccinate and I certainly have the right to not have them work for me.
And that was your decision to make, I assume, as the principal of your firm. The government didn’t force you to give that option to them (vaccinate or be fired). And that’s far more palatable to me. Don’t agree with you, but im okay with that.
 
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itsjustme0770

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And that was your decision to make, I assume, as the principal of your firm. The government didn’t force you to give that option to them (vaccinate or be fired). And that’s far more palatable to me. Don’t agree with you, but im okay with that.
So you think that Abbott and DeSantis’ executive orders are unlawful and unconstitutional, right?
 

SteveT1

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Which ones?
Haven’t seen any DeSantis EO preventing employers from mandating employees get vaxxed. I don’t think current law authorizes such an order, hence the special session.
 

itsjustme0770

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Haven’t seen any DeSantis EO preventing employers from mandating employees get vaxxed. I don’t think current law authorizes such an order, hence the special session.
Sorry, you are correct. Only Abbott has signed an executive order. But the point is the same. Do you support government barring the decision by private business?
 

fsufool

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I am a member of an Industrial alliance for the northern gulf coast. We had our annual meeting (the 1st in person meeting in 2 years) last Thursday in Mobile Al. The alliance is comprised of dozens of major construction construction companies and fabrication companies such as Ingalls Ship yards. Most of the construction companies have jobs going on all the US and many while working in the gulf coast area also have projects going on globally. So these are some very big guns in the industry. A lot of the discussions centered on upcoming OSHA mandate. The general consensus with the group (over 100 present) was if the mandate is enacted we could expect to see 100s of thousands jobs lost and a lot of major industry come to a grinding halt.
Never seen so many grown folks so scared of a vaccination. Bet they all put 60-70 vaccinations into their children. But, what is really funny is that these folks apparently don't see the worldwide demographic shift that will decrease the amount of workers available significantly going forward. China is first, Europe next, then US.
 

SteveT1

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Sorry, you are correct. Only Abbott has signed an executive order. But the point is the same. Do you support government barring the decision by private business?
I think states have more authority on this than the federal government, and intentionally so. Do I support a state level ban on private employers mandating the vaccination? Haven’t made up my mind yet, and would need to see what exceptions a ban has, whether it applies to all employers, etc. At minimum, such a ban is more science-based than the mandate OSHA just decreed without any real statutory authority.
 

itsjustme0770

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I think you are wrong about the statutory authority. But we'll find out about that. But I love the folks that worry about freedoms and then are fine with telling private businesses what to do.
 

SteveT1

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I think you are wrong about the statutory authority. But we'll find out about that. But I love the folks that worry about freedoms and then are fine with telling private businesses what to do.
Not “fine” with it. I’d be against it but for the osha mandate.
 

SteveT1

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I think you are wrong about the statutory authority. But we'll find out about that. But I love the folks that worry about freedoms and then are fine with telling private businesses what to do.
OSHA gives an extremely strained interpretation of their statutory authority. I’ve read it. It’s designed for temporary chemical leaks, not a novel strain of the flu (I don’t think covid is the flu, but it’s a viral illness, so same idea). It’s the type of overreach the Court slapped down re the eviction moratorium. Closer call than that, but not by much.
 
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AllNoles

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I don’t do admin law like that but that’s what I’ve heard from those who do. Said this isn’t legally justified at all but that it will politically make it somehow.
 
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itsjustme0770

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OSHA gives an extremely strained interpretation of their statutory authority. I’ve read it. It’s designed for temporary chemical leaks, not a novel strain of the flu (I don’t think covid is the flu, but it’s a viral illness, so same idea). It’s the type of overreach the Court slapped down re the eviction moratorium. Closer call than that, but not by much.
I litigate osha issues every day all day. I suspect the osha rule is just fine and the overly political 5th with get smacked. But we’ll see.
 

SteveT1

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I litigate osha issues every day all day. I suspect the osha rule is just fine and the overly political 5th with get smacked. But we’ll see.
Do you challenge OSHA rules or determinations? This seems like a straight forward challenge to an agency rule—using pretty standard tools in any challenge to govt action, osha or otherwise.

And I’m not second guessing your experience, just think it’s mostly irrelevant for this rule. Osha admits it’s a new use of the statute.
 
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surfnole

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Never seen so many grown folks so scared of a vaccination. Bet they all put 60-70 vaccinations into their children. But, what is really funny is that these folks apparently don't see the worldwide demographic shift that will decrease the amount of workers available significantly going forward. China is first, Europe next, then US.
I've never seen so many people so scared of a pandemic. Bill Maher was on the Jimmy Kimmel show and 70% of Democrats and 50% of Republicans believe that if you catch covid you're going to the hospital. The odds are between 1 and 5%..

And death rates are inflated not much worried if you are young and healthy. As one datapoint without interpretation or guesstimation of cause is the US carrier Theodore Roosevelt. Roughly 4300 sailors 1250 caught covid and one died. Median age was 27 and all had to pass a Navy physical. Less than .1% death rate

Diamond princess cruise ship maybe 3100 on the ship 770 or so caught covid 11 died. 1.5 percent death rate and those were primarily old people many with comorbid conditions.

It's lunacy to fire your workforce via the executive mandate. All those first responders who subjected themselves to the disease for more than a year will now get fired? If they refuse the vaccine?

And we are now on a NeverEnding Merry-Go-Round a booster shots for the rest of our lives. Maybe every 6 months to a year.

Glad I don't live in California with their crazy lockdowns
 

ChiefWB

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I've never seen so many people so scared of a pandemic. Bill Maher was on the Jimmy Kimmel show and 70% of Democrats and 50% of Republicans believe that if you catch covid you're going to the hospital. The odds are between 1 and 5%..

And death rates are inflated not much worried if you are young and healthy. As one datapoint without interpretation or guesstimation of cause is the US carrier Theodore Roosevelt. Roughly 4300 sailors 1250 caught covid and one died. Median age was 27 and all had to pass a Navy physical. Less than .1% death rate

Diamond princess cruise ship maybe 3100 on the ship 770 or so caught covid 11 died. 1.5 percent death rate and those were primarily old people many with comorbid conditions.

It's lunacy to fire your workforce via the executive mandate. All those first responders who subjected themselves to the disease for more than a year will now get fired? If they refuse the vaccine?

And we are now on a NeverEnding Merry-Go-Round a booster shots for the rest of our lives. Maybe every 6 months to a year.

Glad I don't live in California with their crazy lockdowns
Look at Florida covid deaths' vs California in the last quarter. It's very sad.
 

AllNoles

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Respond to what? It’s a virus. Its gonna do what it’s gonna do. I’m much happier to be in a state that didn’t shut down for this. Just like I’d rather be in a state that doesn’t have 30 mph max speeds because it lowers car related deaths. There are balances to be made and I think he did it all well. Encourage vaccines. Great rollout. Innovative with treatment. But let us live life normally. There’s no part of my thoughts that ever thinks I’d want him to have done any of this differently, with exception of not allowing business to require vaccines. While I don’t think they should I think choice goes all ways.
 

itsjustme0770

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Do you challenge OSHA rules or determinations? This seems like a straight forward challenge to an agency rule—using pretty standard tools in any challenge to govt action, osha or otherwise.

And I’m not second guessing your experience, just think it’s mostly irrelevant for this rule. Osha admits it’s a new use of the statute.
Deal with the applications to workers in the workplace. OSHA''s mandate in 1971 was clean and clear. Do what you need to do to protect the worker. That's all they are doing here. Airborne contaminants have been the primary reason for OSHA's existence since it started in 1971. The very first rule they put in place was for asbestos which was/is damaging only when breathed. I feel comfortable that that the osha mandates are appropriate and will be upheld. But I don't wear the black robe. We'll see.
 
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itsjustme0770

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I've never seen so many people so scared of a pandemic. Bill Maher was on the Jimmy Kimmel show and 70% of Democrats and 50% of Republicans believe that if you catch covid you're going to the hospital. The odds are between 1 and 5%..

And death rates are inflated not much worried if you are young and healthy. As one datapoint without interpretation or guesstimation of cause is the US carrier Theodore Roosevelt. Roughly 4300 sailors 1250 caught covid and one died. Median age was 27 and all had to pass a Navy physical. Less than .1% death rate

Diamond princess cruise ship maybe 3100 on the ship 770 or so caught covid 11 died. 1.5 percent death rate and those were primarily old people many with comorbid conditions.

It's lunacy to fire your workforce via the executive mandate. All those first responders who subjected themselves to the disease for more than a year will now get fired? If they refuse the vaccine?

And we are now on a NeverEnding Merry-Go-Round a booster shots for the rest of our lives. Maybe every 6 months to a year.

Glad I don't live in California with their crazy lockdowns
Spoken like a selfish idiot.
 
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Dhersh

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Respond to what? It’s a virus. Its gonna do what it’s gonna do. I’m much happier to be in a state that didn’t shut down for this. Just like I’d rather be in a state that doesn’t have 30 mph max speeds because it lowers car related deaths. There are balances to be made and I think he did it all well. Encourage vaccines. Great rollout. Innovative with treatment. But let us live life normally. There’s no part of my thoughts that ever thinks I’d want him to have done any of this differently, with exception of not allowing business to require vaccines. While I don’t think they should I think choice goes all ways.
I'm not convinced that he would have done it differently under many other circumstances. Let's not kid ourselves, Florida man was playing politics the whole time. It goes without saying that there was a fine line to walk for most public officials when balancing something like a novel virus and the response. In most situations, I believe policy makers would refer to public health officials for guidance, but there was no good choice to be made here.
 

GbrNole

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Look at Florida covid deaths' vs California in the last quarter. It's very sad.
it's only fair to compare the first qtr of 2021 also then i assume? was florida doing it all wrong when california was having ~150% the equivalent (population adjusted) daily deaths that florida was?

if we look specifically at deaths in the people age 65+, the highest risk age group accounting for ~85% of all covid deaths, california was having ~210% the equivalent (population adjusted) daily deaths that florida was in Q1. while california has overall 184% the population of florida, its 65+ population is only 133% that of florida.

the one thing that has been pretty consistent wth covid is that when people have to retreat indoors case numbers and deaths go up. winter is windows open and outdoor time for florida. mid january is when peak US deaths occur every year.
 
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Dhersh

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it's only fair to compare the first qtr of 2021 also then i assume? was florida doing it all wrong when california was having ~150% the equivalent (population adjusted) daily deaths that florida was?

if we look specifically at deaths in the people age 65+, the highest risk age group accounting for ~85% of all covid deaths, california was having ~210% the equivalent (population adjusted) daily deaths that florida was in Q1. while california has overall 184% the population of florida, its 65+ population is only 133% that of florida.

the one thing that has been pretty consistent wth covid is that when people have to retreat indoors case numbers and deaths go up. winter is windows open and outdoor time for florida. mid january is when peak US deaths occur every year.
It's interesting the way this virus rips through different states at different times. We've mentioned the large difference in time between Cali and Florida when they saw major spikes. When delta was running rampant through most of the entire country, Colorado was doing pretty well as far as case numbers go. Now with the Delta surge passing in the US in most states, Colorado cases are exploding.
 
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GbrNole

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It's interesting the way this virus rips through different states at different times. We've mentioned the large difference in time between Cali and Florida when they saw major spikes. When delta was running rampant through most of the entire country, Colorado was doing pretty well as far as case numbers go. Now with the Delta surge passing in the US in most states, Colorado cases are exploding.
close doors and windows and all hell breaks loose!
 

ChiefWB

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it's only fair to compare the first qtr of 2021 also then i assume? was florida doing it all wrong when california was having ~150% the equivalent (population adjusted) daily deaths that florida was?

if we look specifically at deaths in the people age 65+, the highest risk age group accounting for ~85% of all covid deaths, california was having ~210% the equivalent (population adjusted) daily deaths that florida was in Q1. while california has overall 184% the population of florida, its 65+ population is only 133% that of florida.

the one thing that has been pretty consistent wth covid is that when people have to retreat indoors case numbers and deaths go up. winter is windows open and outdoor time for florida. mid january is when peak US deaths occur every year.
California and New York have both been heavily criticized for their handling of the pandemic, especially early on. Progress has been made since Q1, vaccines, mitigation efforts etc. Why have the last 3 months in Florida been so awful considering all we know and the tools we have? Why did deaths in Florida reach their highest point in recent weeks thus far in the pandemic? Is it simply because a "virus is gonna virus" and Florida just happened to have really bad luck from August through early October? New York state is similar in population and has seen a small fraction of reported deaths over the last 60-90 days as compared to Florida. California is nearly double the population and deaths are way down in comparison.
 

ChiefWB

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close doors and windows and all hell breaks loose!
Illinois' numbers dropped last year right when winter started and numbers dropped significantly during the peak of winter (Jan-March). June in Florida was the lowest cases per day since the pandemic arrived. Numbers were much higher in the cooler months. I freely admit we don't have much of this figured out but it's not hard to see that some things are being flat out ignored.
 

GbrNole

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California and New York have both been heavily criticized for their handling of the pandemic, especially early on. Progress has been made since Q1, vaccines, mitigation efforts etc. Why have the last 3 months in Florida been so awful considering all we know and the tools we have? Why did deaths in Florida reach their highest point in recent weeks thus far in the pandemic? Is it simply because a "virus is gonna virus" and Florida just happened to have really bad luck from August through early October? New York state is similar in population and has seen a small fraction of reported deaths over the last 60-90 days as compared to Florida. California is nearly double the population and deaths are way down in comparison.
florida's peak deaths occurred previously in summer 2020 also. 2021 was clearly worse but the trend remains. i can only hope that states that have to deal with a harsh winter don't see a repeat of Q1 this coming january.
 

ChiefWB

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It's interesting the way this virus rips through different states at different times. We've mentioned the large difference in time between Cali and Florida when they saw major spikes. When delta was running rampant through most of the entire country, Colorado was doing pretty well as far as case numbers go. Now with the Delta surge passing in the US in most states, Colorado cases are exploding.
Cases have been up in Colorado since August. Fortunately there hasn't been a huge spike in deaths. Let's hope that continues to play out.
 
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GbrNole

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Illinois' numbers dropped last year right when winter started and numbers dropped significantly during the peak of winter (Jan-March). June in Florida was the lowest cases per day since the pandemic arrived. Numbers were much higher in the cooler months. I freely admit we don't have much of this figured out but it's not hard to see that some things are being flat out ignored.
Illinois definitely peaked out earlier than the US average. it occurred in mid december whereas the US as a whole it occurred in mid january. the descent was slower for illinois though. in either case it still very much followed the national trend for peak deaths for any cause occurring in that time period.

 

ChiefWB

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florida's peak deaths occurred previously in summer 2020 also. 2021 was clearly worse but the trend remains. i can only hope that states that have to deal with a harsh winter don't see a repeat of Q1 this coming january.
Florida's peak was just a month or so earlier last year but that's similar enough to see parallels. This time last year Illinois was getting close to its peak in cases and starting to see a rise in deaths. This year cases and deaths have stayed relatively flat since school opened in August.
 

ChiefWB

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Illinois definitely peaked out earlier than the US average. it occurred in mid december whereas the US as a whole it occurred in mid january. the descent was slower for illinois though. in either case it still very much followed the national trend for peak deaths for any cause occurring in that time period.

I think we are agreeing on most of this. My issue is the massive amount of deaths in Florida from August-October as compared to elsewhere now and its own numbers the last two spikes.
 
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Dhersh

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Illinois' numbers dropped last year right when winter started and numbers dropped significantly during the peak of winter (Jan-March). June in Florida was the lowest cases per day since the pandemic arrived. Numbers were much higher in the cooler months. I freely admit we don't have much of this figured out but it's not hard to see that some things are being flat out ignored.
I don't live in Florida anymore and so I admit I don't always know what's going on there, but it seems to me they have pulled back on the amount of resources being used to combat the pandemic. I know we all don't want the pandemic to disrupt our lives but just ignoring the pandemic don't seem like a good strategy to make things better. It's great that cases are down, but future upticks are possible.
 
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