OSHA weighs in on science

GbrNole

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I think we are agreeing on most of this. My issue is the massive amount of deaths in Florida from August-October as compared to elsewhere now and its own numbers the last two spikes.
i honestly was surprised that florida had fared so well up until this summer really. our population of 65+ residents dwarfs every state but california and it isn't particularly far off even there being about 4.5M in florida vs. about 5.3M in california.

new york 65+ is only 3.2M despite its overall population being about 90% that of florida.
 
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ChiefWB

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I don't live in Florida anymore and so I admit I don't always know what's going on there, but it seems to me they have pulled back on the amount of resources being used to combat the pandemic. I know we all don't want the pandemic to disrupt our lives but just ignoring the pandemic don't seem like a good strategy to make things better. It's great that cases are down, but future spikes are possible.
I honestly don't have the answer. I know some like to say it is because they are open and free, which sounds nice on a bumper sticker but pretty much everywhere in the country is wide open. The poster above that claimed "Florida is doing great" struck me as odd consider Florida has reported somewhere around 20,000 Covid deaths since August 1, 2021. That is horrific at this stage in my opinion.
 

GbrNole

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I don't live in Florida anymore and so I admit I don't always know what's going on there, but it seems to me they have pulled back on the amount of resources being used to combat the pandemic. I know we all don't want the pandemic to disrupt our lives but just ignoring the pandemic don't seem like a good strategy to make things better. It's great that cases are down, but future upticks are possible.
not in the least. i can still happily trot down to the old library in bonita springs to get a course of monoclonal antibodies if i needed to. there are about two dozen similar sites around the state. covid testing is available at basically any pharmacy as are vaccinations / boosters.
 
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Dhersh

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not in the least. i can still happily trot down to the old library in bonita springs to get a course of monoclonal antibodies if i needed to. there are about two dozen similar sites around the state. covid testing is available at basically any pharmacy as are vaccinations / boosters.
What about funding, reporting, oversight, coordination from the state level down?
 

SteveT1

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I honestly don't have the answer. I know some like to say it is because they are open and free, which sounds nice on a bumper sticker but pretty much everywhere in the country is wide open. The poster above that claimed "Florida is doing great" struck me as odd consider Florida has reported somewhere around 20,000 Covid deaths since August 1, 2021. That is horrific at this stage in my opinion.
Not true that “pretty much everywhere in the country is wide open.” Friends/in-laws visited from DC and the northeast said Florida was like a different country—a much better country. It was most evident for them at Publix and they couldn’t get over seeing everyone’s face. Crazy.
 

Dhersh

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Not true that “pretty much everywhere in the country is wide open.” Friends/in-laws visited from DC and the northeast said Florida was like a different country—a much better country. It was most evident for them at Publix and they couldn’t get over seeing everyone’s face. Crazy.
cra·zy
/ˈkrāzē/
INFORMAL
adjective
mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
"Florida do be crazy sometimes."
😉
 
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SteveT1

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Deal with the applications to workers in the workplace. OSHA''s mandate in 1971 was clean and clear. Do what you need to do to protect the worker. That's all they are doing here. Airborne contaminants have been the primary reason for OSHA's existence since it started in 1971. The very first rule they put in place was for asbestos which was/is damaging only when breathed. I feel comfortable that that the osha mandates are appropriate and will be upheld. But I don't wear the black robe. We'll see.
I sort of inferred part of my hang up with an expansive interpretation earlier. If it extends to covid vaccinations, it extends to flu shots or any other vaccine. An area the federal government traditionally has, except for the military, abstained from participating because of significant doubt about its constitutional authority. So an interpretation making that leap into an area traditionally governed by states would take a clear statement from Congress. That’s sort of the parallel with the eviction moratorium’s intrusion into landlord-tenant relationships traditionally governed by state law.

As far as airborne contaminants go, asbestos is literally a workplace related/derived substance. The concern isn’t that employees will bring it from home and infect others. It’s that workers are coming to work where the substance is waiting for them. But that’s not the case with covid. It’s not part and parcel with the workplace like asbestos or a chemical leak.
 

fsufool

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close doors and windows and all hell breaks loose!
We have known for over a year that the majority of the spread was in the home. Early on, because of NYC and Europe we thought it was Subways, large apartments buildings, large work places, etc. Now we know it is the long length of time in close quarters with others that occurs in the home. Shelter in place was the wrong move. We also know and this has been known for a long time, that over time the respiratory virus would spread to almost everyone. In the USA, more than half the population has more than likely been infected despite our mitigation efforts and mass vaccinations. The initial plan to "flatten the curve" so as our hospitals did not get overrun was correct and should have been used as soon as we saw hospital spikes locally or regionally. We have done that many times in the past locally, without general shelter in place rules.

However, flattening the curve meant that the virus would be with us much longer allowing for Delta and other variants to spread. The vaccination (that I and my whole family got), should have been like flu vaccinations and been a 65+, those immune compromised, and health care workers to knock down the virus from those that were many times more likely to be hospitalized/die. Some of the top epidemiologist have been consistent with these thoughts all along. There was discussion among them in 2008-2009 about "shelter in place," and it was universally thought to be a disastrous policy that would cause more overall harm than good.

Since Covid started there has been 60,811 deaths in children under 18 years of age. 576 were from Covid, 189 from Influenza, and 148 from Pneumonia. Whose to say that the 576 weren't so fragile that they would have died from another respiratory virus if Covid didn't exist? But, there is no Covid crisis in children. So, why all the hand wringing? (It's not about the spread as outlined above)

Mass vaccinations should have brought the end of mitigation efforts. But, we continue to see some public health officials and politicians demand continuing mitigation efforts. This is back firing and that is why we will have issues the next go around. That is why we see people who blindly immunized their children with 70+ vaccinations suddenly decide that vaccinations are some weird left wing plot. Official overreach is real and has caused much damage.

Unfortunately, I don't believe we will learn the lessons we need to from our reaction to Covid. There was many positive parts of the effort. Also, too many bad decisions and too much fear mongering IMO.
 

GbrNole

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What about funding, reporting, oversight, coordination from the state level down?
i don't know about funding. i can only presume it is similar to or better than prior mostly because florida had to go out and source monoclonal antibodies supply separate from the federal stock.

florida's state reporting remains the same as it has since last May. i still collate the data on a weekly basis to contrast and compare against prior week(s) when it's released each friday.
 

GbrNole

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In the USA, more than half the population has more than likely been infected despite our mitigation efforts and mass vaccinations.

This is one of the projections that I do struggle with. The number is greater than the number of recorded cases as evidenced through seroprevalence results but there should be some correlation between the seroprevalence test results being returned for nucleoprotein and the CDC's covid burden estimate. they are miles apart. Recorded cases make up about 15% of the nation. Combined infection induced seroprevalence age 16+ is 22%. CDC estimate of covid infections is 44%.

Since Covid started there has been 60,811 deaths in children under 18 years of age. 576 were from Covid, 189 from Influenza, and 148 from Pneumonia. Whose to say that the 576 weren't so fragile that they would have died from another respiratory virus if Covid didn't exist? But, there is no Covid crisis in children. So, why all the hand wringing? (It's not about the spread as outlined above)

I had read somewhere that there have been zero pediatric covid deaths in the US where a significant comorbidity was absent. the article cited the most common comorbidity in pediatric covid deaths being leukemia.
 
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GeddyLee09

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I think we are agreeing on most of this. My issue is the massive amount of deaths in Florida from August-October as compared to elsewhere now and its own numbers the last two spikes.
From the beginning of covid deaths in Florida are 287 per 100,000 in population per the CDC. California is at 181, Illinois is 224 and New York is around 281. As far as the massive amounts of deaths in Florida from August its really hard to classify those as occurring in that time. They could be backlogged cases since reporting has changed in Florida and many states. In addition comparing numbers like this for a short period of time doesnt tell us much since the virus moves in waves through the country.
 
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fsufool

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I had read somewhere that there have been zero pediatric covid deaths in the US where a significant comorbidity was absent. the article cited the most common comorbidity in pediatric covid deaths being leukemia.
A couple months ago a Carnegie Mellon MD/Researcher found that to be true and published an opinion piece on MEDPAGE today. Would not be surprising if that continues to be accurate. The fear that children will spread the infection has caused much more damage than anything else to them. As many folks have pointed out, this is the first time we apply universal precautions to an entire society with claiming the healthy are a danger to the vulnerable.
 
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GbrNole

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As far as the massive amounts of deaths in Florida from August its really hard to classify those as occurring in that time. They could be backlogged cases since reporting has changed in Florida and many states.
tracking it week over week it's more likely to be accurate than not. peak weekly deaths in florida occurred right at 60 days after the july surge began. @ChiefWB called that when we first began discussing it at the commencement of florida's delta surge and it held true.
 

surfnole

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Spoken like a selfish idiot.
A selfish idiot for what reason? For quoting actual deaths without spin or policies to inflate the rate?

For thinking that Congress should vote on mandatory vaccines and firing of employees instead of executive order?

For wondering why every employee needs to show ID to keep their job but we're unable to request illegal aliens to show ID to get a job? You're wondering why Biden didn't extend his executive order to include all members of Congress and Senate?

For not wanting to take some b******* booster every 6 months for life?

Seems to me that the government is just throwing s*** up against the wall to see what sticks. Friend of mine who is brilliant is the chief pathologist for a local hospital. She refuses to take the vaccine. Anybody who questions anything about the current party line is verboten. Doctors threatened with losing medical license if they don't agree.

Remember when the government said mask didn't work and then they did? Or when you could catch it from surfaces?

Remember when the drug company said that the vaccines had a 95% effective rate against catching covid? That was certainly bulshit the vaccine does nothing to prevent covid. Israel had its highest covid infection rate ever after its population was 80% vaccinated. Go back to about October of this year maybe September

If you're so concerned about catching covid you can stay home and lock down yourself. Lockdowns certainly work if we isolated every person alone the virus would completely disappear but at what cost? Lockdowns have a tremendous backside cost which nobody seems to consider other than the rational States.

And DeSantis and leaders of the Congress and Florida just lower the boom yesterday I think

And curious minds want to know why did California governor newsom disappear for two weeks after getting vaccinated

On a side note what are the odds this vaccine came from the Wuhan lab? Of all the places in the world for this vaccine to originate it was originally named after the city it came from and we have senator Rand Paul challenging Fauci on funding the growing of more powerful viruses in wuhan. And Rand is a doctor I believe
 
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itsjustme0770

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A selfish idiot for what reason? For quoting actual deaths without spin or policies to inflate the rate?

For thinking that Congress should vote on mandatory vaccines and firing of employees instead of executive order?

For wondering why every employee needs to show ID to keep their job but we're unable to request illegal aliens to show ID to get a job? You're wondering why Biden didn't extend his executive order to include all members of Congress and Senate?

For not wanting to take some b******* booster every 6 months for life?

Seems to me that the government is just throwing s*** up against the wall to see what sticks. Friend of mine who is brilliant is the chief pathologist for a local hospital. She refuses to take the vaccine. Anybody who questions anything about the current party line is verboten. Doctors threatened with losing medical license if they don't agree.

Remember when the government said mask didn't work and then they did? Or when you could catch it from surfaces?

Remember when the drug company said that the vaccines had a 95% effective rate against catching covid? That was certainly bulshit the vaccine does nothing to prevent covid. Israel had its highest covid infection rate ever after its population was 80% vaccinated. Go back to about October of this year maybe September

If you're so concerned about catching covid you can stay home and lock down yourself. Lockdowns certainly work if we isolated every person alone the virus would completely disappear but at what cost? Lockdowns have a tremendous backside cost which nobody seems to consider other than the rational States.

And DeSantis and leaders of the Congress and Florida just lower the boom yesterday I think

And curious minds want to know why did California governor newsom disappear for two weeks after getting vaccinated

On a side note what are the odds this vaccine came from the Wuhan lab? Of all the places in the world for this vaccine to originate it was originally named after the city it came from and we have senator Rand Paul challenging Fauci on funding the growing of more powerful viruses in wuhan. And Rand is a doctor I believe
So hard to respond to this lack of organized thought and stream of consciousness rant, but vaccine mandates are totally constitutional. And have been for more than a century. See e.g. Zucht v. King, U.S. Sup. Ct. 1922.
 

SteveT1

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So hard to respond to this lack of organized thought and stream of consciousness rant, but vaccine mandates are totally constitutional. And have been for more than a century. See e.g. Zucht v. King, U.S. Sup. Ct. 1922.
Just not from the federal government (excluding military mandates).
 

itsjustme0770

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Just not from the federal government (excluding military mandates).
No where in that opinion does it say federal mandates are unconstitutional. It simply says that vaccine mandates are constitutional. When you combine that with the supremacy cause of the constitution, I think you get the conclusion that federal vaccine mandates are perfectly fine.
 

Bamanoles

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I think you are wrong about the statutory authority. But we'll find out about that. But I love the folks that worry about freedoms and then are fine with telling private businesses what to do.
I think that is the balance the Florida governor and legislature is working hard to find. From what I've seen so far they won't tell private businesses what to do with their employees. They are trying to keep the Federal government from doing just that.
 
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Dodinole

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OSHA determined it, so I guess it's so.

"3. Prior COVID-19 infections. OSHA determined that workers who have been infected with COVID-19 but have not been fully vaccinated still face a grave danger from workplace exposure to SARS-CoV-2. This is an area of ongoing scientific inquiry. Given scientific uncertainty and limitations in testing for infection and immunity, OSHA is concerned that it would be infeasible for employers to operationalize a standard that would permit or require an exception from vaccination or testing and face covering based on prior infection with COVID-19."

But given the significant scientific uncertainty on the efficacy and long term side effects of the covid vaccines, in addition to the vaccine not really stopping infections or transmissions, OSHA's "concern" seems disingenuous at best.
Never mind what OSHA did was unconstitutional. Congress never granted them the authority to issue such a mandate.
 

SteveT1

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No where in that opinion does it say federal mandates are unconstitutional. It simply says that vaccine mandates are constitutional. When you combine that with the supremacy cause of the constitution, I think you get the conclusion that federal vaccine mandates are perfectly fine.
That’s not what it says. It says “it is within the police power of a state . . .” Emphasis added.

The federal government possesses no general police power like the one exercised there. The federal government has never before mandated vaccinations outside of the military context. Not with smallpox, not ever. It once funded a Vaccine Agent who would send the smallpox vaccine to those who requested it, but that was disbanded later on for various reasons including serious doubt about its constitutionality.

I expect OSHA’s rule to fall, in part, because mandatory vaccinations are traditionally within each state’s general police powers. If that’s the case, OSHA must have a clear statement from Congress to impose this rule. Even with a clear statement, I think constitutional challenges may be quite strong.

It’s nonsensical to even include the “supremacy clause” as part of your rationale.
 

AllNoles

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They always knew the OSHA rule couldn’t stand but planned to use the OSHA rule making plan to delay it collapsing.
 
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itsjustme0770

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That’s not what it says. It says “it is within the police power of a state . . .” Emphasis added.

The federal government possesses no general police power like the one exercised there. The federal government has never before mandated vaccinations outside of the military context. Not with smallpox, not ever. It once funded a Vaccine Agent who would send the smallpox vaccine to those who requested it, but that was disbanded later on for various reasons including serious doubt about its constitutionality.

I expect OSHA’s rule to fall, in part, because mandatory vaccinations are traditionally within each state’s general police powers. If that’s the case, OSHA must have a clear statement from Congress to impose this rule. Even with a clear statement, I think constitutional challenges may be quite strong.

It’s nonsensical to even include the “supremacy clause” as part of your rationale.
Looking for the part where it says "but not the federal state", but the good news is that we are going to find out.
 

SteveT1

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Looking for the part where it says "but not the federal state", but the good news is that we are going to find out.
It okay's the authority of states under their general police power--which the Court has stated time and time again the federal government does not possess--may impose vaccine mandates. That case doesn't come close to supporting the federal government's role here. Asinine to argue the cases dealing with state power to impose smallpox vaccine mandates from early 20th century, somehow coupled with the Supremacy Clause, confers that authority on the federal bureaucracy. Supremacy Clause is not an independent delegation of power. It's a conflict of laws and jurisdictional rule.
 

itsjustme0770

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As I said, we are going to find out. While I agree that the federal government cannot mandate the vaccine for the general public (which it has not tried to do), the federal government absolutely can issue rules related to worker safety and mandates to businesses, which, of course is what it has done. That is 100% valid under the supremacy clause and has been proven time and again through the use of laws (OSHA, Federal Motor Carrier Safety Act, etc).
 

GbrNole

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The government is taking comments to apply its mandate to firms with less than 100 employees and in the meantime the 5th Circuit reaffirms its stay calling it “staggeringly overbroad” and rules that OSHA stand down and cannot enact the mandate without further court order.

yep, it’s gonna be a doozy.
 
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SteveT1

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As I said, we are going to find out. While I agree that the federal government cannot mandate the vaccine for the general public (which it has not tried to do), the federal government absolutely can issue rules related to worker safety and mandates to businesses, which, of course is what it has done. That is 100% valid under the supremacy clause and has been proven time and again through the use of laws (OSHA, Federal Motor Carrier Safety Act, etc).
There's no preemption argument currently at issue. Supremacy Clause does not grant any powers to the federal government. It states that the Constitution and Laws made in pursuance thereof are the supreme law of the land. It's not the commerce clause. This is a federal agency's interpretation of a half-century old law. And it dives into an area traditionally governed by states (see, e.g., Jacobson & King for proposition that vaccine mandates are valid exercise of a state's general police power). It's black letter law that, when a federal agency formulates rules that wade into an area traditionally reserved to the States, it must have a clear statement from Congress to do so. But even a clear statement wouldn't necessarily make it constitutional. If, however, it's found to be (a) authorized by statute, and (b) said statute is constitutional, then preemption issues (Supremacy Clause) may become relevant to the extent there's a conflict with a state or local law.

Anyway, go noles! Look forward to continuing discussion after beating the canes back to Miami
 
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SteveT1

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The government is taking comments to apply its mandate to firms with less than 100 employees and in the meantime the 5th Circuit reaffirms its stay calling it “staggeringly overbroad” and rules that OSHA stand down and cannot enact the mandate without further court order.

yep, it’s gonna be a doozy.
Both overbroad and underinclusive. 5th Cir. judges wrote a few pretty clean opinions, imo.
 
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surfnole

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So hard to respond to this lack of organized thought and stream of consciousness rant, but vaccine mandates are totally constitutional. And have been for more than a century. See e.g. Zucht v. King, U.S. Sup. Ct. 1922.

I went from being a selfish idiot to a 100 year old case about the government being able two mandate vaccines. Curious what other vaccines have been mandated at the federal level? For the general population?

I suppose that also means mandating vaccines two children who have already been demonstrated on this thread to not die from covid other than comorbid factors. The choice of who Biden is forcing vaccine is arbitrary. Does not include Congress does not include illegal aliens.

See the attached link. Sweden's infection rate is lower than France, Portugal, Spain, slightly higher than Sweden and 20% higher than Germany yet Sweden ever had a lockdown.

Yes a bit off topic but well hopefully eliminate some of the fear-mongering regarding lockdowns and the pandemic

Sweden covid
 

ParooKid

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I fired 3 people from my firm last week for failure to vaccinate. And I’ll fire plenty more. They certainly have a right not to vaccinate and I certainly have the right to not have them work for me.

You have the right to be ignorant,also. Isn't this a wonderful country where divergent opinions can be expressed.
 

ParooKid

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Absolutely, but not to the extent it harms the employees of this nation. Big tech, pharma, etc giving their entire employee base an ultimatum or their jobs are ALL on the line just isn't right and it's un-american.

No one knows if these vaccines are safe down the road. Two three years down the road and who knows what will show up. These vaccines should have been researched and tested for at least five years. I cringe thinking what this might be doing to little children who have no say in their future. An employee can tell his company to go to hell, but these kids can't.

That's my final say, no more responses. To argue this stuff is pointless. No one wins.











all
 

GbrNole

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i'm cool with private businesses doing whatever the hell they want provided it is without impunity if something goes sideways as a result of their determination.
 
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surfnole

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You have the right to be ignorant,also. Isn't this a wonderful country where divergent opinions can be expressed.

"I fired 3 people from my firm last week for failure to vaccinate. And I’ll fire plenty more. They certainly have a right not to vaccinate and I certainly have the right to not have them work for me."

Well good for you they must have been shitty employees not affecting the bottom line. I doubt you would fire them if it's severely affected your bottom line

Yes you do have that right and I am in agreement with that.

Imagine that Biden via executive order forced you to retain employees that had not been vaccinated. Flip the shoe around and directed at you and let me know what your opinion is

I am not in agreement with the vaccination policy now by executive order and for a nebulous population.

Many of our supply chain issues and future coming issues are due to firing non-vaccinated employees.
 
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itsjustme0770

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"I fired 3 people from my firm last week for failure to vaccinate. And I’ll fire plenty more. They certainly have a right not to vaccinate and I certainly have the right to not have them work for me."

Well good for you they must have been shitty employees not affecting the bottom line. I doubt you would fire them if it's severely affected your bottom line

Yes you do have that right and I am in agreement with that.

Imagine that Biden via executive order forced you to retain employees that had not been vaccinated. Flip the shoe around and directed at you and let me know what your opinion is

I am not in agreement with the vaccination policy now by executive order and for a nebulous population.

Many of our supply chain issues and future coming issues are due to firing non-vaccinated employees.
They were crazy valued. They were very very important to what we do. I am working significantly longer hours getting the new people up to speed and will likely be for an extended period of time. But they were down the rabbit hole of misinformation, not interested in protecting their fellow employees and their families. I have an 8 year old son and I have zero tolerance for the selfishness of those claiming freedom in place of looking out for their fellow man.
 

AllNoles

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"I fired 3 people from my firm last week for failure to vaccinate. And I’ll fire plenty more. They certainly have a right not to vaccinate and I certainly have the right to not have them work for me."

Well good for you they must have been shitty employees not affecting the bottom line. I doubt you would fire them if it's severely affected your bottom line

Yes you do have that right and I am in agreement with that.

Imagine that Biden via executive order forced you to retain employees that had not been vaccinated. Flip the shoe around and directed at you and let me know what your opinion is

I am not in agreement with the vaccination policy now by executive order and for a nebulous population.

Many of our supply chain issues and future coming issues are due to firing non-vaccinated employees.
The issues are related to awful policy by Brandon and by the awful policies in Cali that ruined the IC trucker issue. We wouldn’t have these issues with real leadership. It is simply awful and unnecessary.
 

surfnole

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They were crazy valued. They were very very important to what we do. I am working significantly longer hours getting the new people up to speed and will likely be for an extended period of time. But they were down the rabbit hole of misinformation, not interested in protecting their fellow employees and their families. I have an 8 year old son and I have zero tolerance for the selfishness of those claiming freedom in place of looking out for their fellow man.
I doubt they were crazy valued. Let's assume that you are the owner or managing partner of a law firm. If one of those individuals was bringing in 20% of your revenue and 20% of your profit you would not fire them.

As documented by others who do more research then me your eight-year-old has a 0% chance of dying from covid unless he is comorbid.
 

surfnole

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Back at is just for me. I don't want a debate so let's just say go Noles.

I am happy that the moderators left this thread alive. I do like hearing other perspectives on this. We both have access to the same information go Noles again.
 
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